Thinking about EV or Hybrid/PHEV
Discussion
Hi All,
I'm thinking about changing to an electric vehicle, or possibly a hybrid.
Most of our journeys are less than 60-70 miles, except 2 or 3 times a year we drive to Italy, to a fairly remote region not served by charging stations, or anywhere you can charge a vehicle from a domestic supply. I think that pretty much rules out an electric-only vehicle, I'm just wondering whether a hybrid or PHEV is worth it, or whether to stick to petrol.
A friend in the trade tells me that EV's are written off for a relatively small accident because they're too dangerous to work on. Would this apply to a hybrid?
If the above is true, I would imagine insurance could get 'interesting', whereas a minor prang in a petrol car may be remedied easily.
I'd welcome any thoughts on the above.
Thanks in advance - Cheers HM
I'm thinking about changing to an electric vehicle, or possibly a hybrid.
Most of our journeys are less than 60-70 miles, except 2 or 3 times a year we drive to Italy, to a fairly remote region not served by charging stations, or anywhere you can charge a vehicle from a domestic supply. I think that pretty much rules out an electric-only vehicle, I'm just wondering whether a hybrid or PHEV is worth it, or whether to stick to petrol.
A friend in the trade tells me that EV's are written off for a relatively small accident because they're too dangerous to work on. Would this apply to a hybrid?
If the above is true, I would imagine insurance could get 'interesting', whereas a minor prang in a petrol car may be remedied easily.
I'd welcome any thoughts on the above.
Thanks in advance - Cheers HM
You could hire a car 2-3 times a year if an EV really wouldn't be suitable for your trips.
EV's are quite cheap to run though, especially if you do high mileage. They are also very refined for daily driving, I certainly won't be going back to ICE anytime soon.
There has been lots of noise about the high costs of EV insurance, probably due to the reason you mentioned - however my EV insurance is really no more than my previous ICE car.
EV's are quite cheap to run though, especially if you do high mileage. They are also very refined for daily driving, I certainly won't be going back to ICE anytime soon.
There has been lots of noise about the high costs of EV insurance, probably due to the reason you mentioned - however my EV insurance is really no more than my previous ICE car.
running a EV + a PHEV
i am keeping the EV and replacing the F series 330e for ICE
not a big fan of the PHEV, the electric range is very short.
it eat up boot space and fuel tank capacity.
peak power is motor+engine, meaning once the electric range ran out i have 330i with extra weight and smaller boot and tank, it does save up around 5% electric charge for sudden acceleration.
i am keeping the EV and replacing the F series 330e for ICE
not a big fan of the PHEV, the electric range is very short.
it eat up boot space and fuel tank capacity.
peak power is motor+engine, meaning once the electric range ran out i have 330i with extra weight and smaller boot and tank, it does save up around 5% electric charge for sudden acceleration.
We have a not dissimilar use case, if more extreme. Most journeys are urban and below 10 miles. Then a dozen or so times a year we drive either to Northern Italy or to rural France. We have a PHEV Volvo XC90 for the long stuff and an i3 for the urban crawl. If we had have only one car (and didn't live in London, where diesel ownership is punished), I would have bought neither of those and have stuck with a diesel; the Volvo delivers about 26mpg on the motorway once the battery is flat and although you can charge from a domestic plug once you arrive at your destination, it's not terribly useful unless you feel very strongly about tailpipe emissions. The diesel equivalent is a 40mpg car.
We drive at least once a year to a fairly remote region of Italy, (mountains above the Mugello valley) and even more often to similar places in France. At the Italian place our friends run an extension lead out of a barn, which charges the car just fine. And even small provincial towns in Italy have roadside EV charge-points these days.
My local commute in Switzerland is 10 miles each way, and I have a 11kW charge point at home with off street parking. Then we drive 100 miles each way most weekends to France (where we use a ‘granny charger,’ again plugged into a standard 13A socket in an outbuilding.)
You’ll most likely be fine with a full EV, rather than a hybrid or PHEV, it just needs a bit more thought and organization. For long distance continental travel, Tesla is still your best bet for reliable charge point functionality and availability, but as the general infrastructure gets better I could imagine buying a non-Tesla as my next EV.
We now 3 years and 84’000km into EV ownership, and are setting off to London for Xmas early next week.
My local commute in Switzerland is 10 miles each way, and I have a 11kW charge point at home with off street parking. Then we drive 100 miles each way most weekends to France (where we use a ‘granny charger,’ again plugged into a standard 13A socket in an outbuilding.)
You’ll most likely be fine with a full EV, rather than a hybrid or PHEV, it just needs a bit more thought and organization. For long distance continental travel, Tesla is still your best bet for reliable charge point functionality and availability, but as the general infrastructure gets better I could imagine buying a non-Tesla as my next EV.
We now 3 years and 84’000km into EV ownership, and are setting off to London for Xmas early next week.
EV's can get written off with what seems like a minor crash, but its the extreme rather than the norm. The fear stories that get thrown around are pretty extreme - Rivian for example had a minor rear accident that required an estimated $60k to fix. Paintless dent repair sorted it out! I believe a lot of the issues are around parts supply and cost. If you cant get a part for 8 weeks (not uncommon) and you have to keep the customer in a rental, well it adds up.
Bigger shunts that compromise the battery are obviously going to get the car scrapped, but thankfully this is rare and almost all of the leading manufacturers know this and build very strong structures anyway. A PHEV will typically be packaged as a traditional ICE with additional components, but much of the exterior stuff is shared as is most of the inner panels etc. So a minor prang should be simple and easy to repair (well depending on the manufacturer!). PHEV batteries are small, so chances of damage are also small.
What you didnt mention was budget. I see a PHEV working well for my use case, but I totally understand that it doesnt fit everyones. The latest batch of PHEV's have good range and fast(ish) charging so make them practical as a local range EV. But you pay for the privilege and can get very expensive quickly.
I cant help thinking that, as mentioned above, an EV for the local stuff (assuming you have at-home charging) with something thats cost effective. Then rent for the bigger yearly trips and not worry about it. If your most frequent trips fall in the less than 80 miles, you have a massive choice of EV's and dont need to make the jump to longer range ones. At home charging only every 3 days or so is easy and the convenience of an EV starts to win out - app to pre-warm in winter and cool in summer, charged when you need it and no need to stop at service stations etc. You get the idea.
Bigger shunts that compromise the battery are obviously going to get the car scrapped, but thankfully this is rare and almost all of the leading manufacturers know this and build very strong structures anyway. A PHEV will typically be packaged as a traditional ICE with additional components, but much of the exterior stuff is shared as is most of the inner panels etc. So a minor prang should be simple and easy to repair (well depending on the manufacturer!). PHEV batteries are small, so chances of damage are also small.
What you didnt mention was budget. I see a PHEV working well for my use case, but I totally understand that it doesnt fit everyones. The latest batch of PHEV's have good range and fast(ish) charging so make them practical as a local range EV. But you pay for the privilege and can get very expensive quickly.
I cant help thinking that, as mentioned above, an EV for the local stuff (assuming you have at-home charging) with something thats cost effective. Then rent for the bigger yearly trips and not worry about it. If your most frequent trips fall in the less than 80 miles, you have a massive choice of EV's and dont need to make the jump to longer range ones. At home charging only every 3 days or so is easy and the convenience of an EV starts to win out - app to pre-warm in winter and cool in summer, charged when you need it and no need to stop at service stations etc. You get the idea.
964Cup said:
the Volvo delivers about 26mpg on the motorway once the battery is flat and although you can charge from a domestic plug once you arrive at your destination, it's not terribly useful unless you feel very strongly about tailpipe emissions. The diesel equivalent is a 40mpg car.
It’s curious how experiences differ. We have the 5 seater version in the shape of the XC60 and find that with a flat battery it gets around the 40MPG mark on motorway journeys. Two recent 400 mile round trips both averaged around 43mpg - starting off with a full battery and not recharging it. The comparison with the BMW PHEV is also interesting. We find there is no difference performance once the battery is “flat” - flat seems to mean it seems the charge at around 3-5% so it always has enough charge to do a few miles EV only at town speeds, or deliver the beans if you call for full power.
The Achilles heel is what range you actually need. Ours claims 48 miles but for us that translates to low 40s of fast A road work in warm weather and low 30s in winter. The resistive heating kills range. A PHEV with a heat pump such as the Lexus is likely better for this.
It is working well for our use case though: short journeys and my commute are EV with associated low emissions and low cost; longer journeys are hassle free from a charging perspective, and cost no more than our previous diesel. The biggest improvement that we’ve discovered is that because it drives like an EV, it’s just much more pleasant and relaxing to drive.
I've had my 2021 XC40 T5 PHEV for a couple of months now. I was sceptical about getting a PHEV, but it has won me over.
The vast majority of my journeys are 20 miles or less, so done purely in electric mode. Costs me less than 4p a mile (Octopus Go and granny charger).
50 mile journeys, I use the "battery hold" function in Hybrid mode on NSL A roads, and let the car use the battery for the slower-speed stuff. With a bit of restraint, I can do 50 miles at an indicated 70mpg, plus 80p of electric. Obviously longer journeys will be worse than that, but even 40mpg (running purely on petrol) on a run isn't bad for a mid-size SUV with around 260bhp.
I've had a couple of diesel SUVs in the past (Kia Sportage and VW Touareg), and both of those struggled to get 40mpg on a 70 mile run.
I probably won't save on fuel what I paid extra for the car over a normal diesel version, but I wanted to dip my toe into electric motoring.
The vast majority of my journeys are 20 miles or less, so done purely in electric mode. Costs me less than 4p a mile (Octopus Go and granny charger).
50 mile journeys, I use the "battery hold" function in Hybrid mode on NSL A roads, and let the car use the battery for the slower-speed stuff. With a bit of restraint, I can do 50 miles at an indicated 70mpg, plus 80p of electric. Obviously longer journeys will be worse than that, but even 40mpg (running purely on petrol) on a run isn't bad for a mid-size SUV with around 260bhp.
I've had a couple of diesel SUVs in the past (Kia Sportage and VW Touareg), and both of those struggled to get 40mpg on a 70 mile run.
I probably won't save on fuel what I paid extra for the car over a normal diesel version, but I wanted to dip my toe into electric motoring.
Hairymonster said:
A friend in the trade tells me that EV's are written off for a relatively small accident because they're too dangerous to work on. Would this apply to a hybrid?
If the above is true, I would imagine insurance could get 'interesting', whereas a minor prang in a petrol car may be remedied easily.
My first EV, a humble Leaf, was in a high-speed head-on collision (combined impact speed 60mph estimated after heavy breaking). The car was written off because airbags galore went bang, seat belt pre-tensioners went whizz, and the car was 60cm shorter meaning the charger and motor were both wreaked. If the above is true, I would imagine insurance could get 'interesting', whereas a minor prang in a petrol car may be remedied easily.
The battery however was assessed as being fine, and the insurers were quite happy as it mean a respectable recoup of costs (as I understand it). I asked as I was very interested, and managed to find out that each cell had been checked and were completely fine, but apparently that's not unusual except where the cars end up on top of something and the battery takes the force. For "normal" impacts the company seemed to think they were generally very well protected.
Insurance will get interesting if you get high powered EV's but otherwise doesn't seem too hideous. Certainly my eNiro has gone up £100 or so, rather than £1000's.
As for your usage case, assuming you can charge at home it sounds perfectly suited to full EV. If Italy really has no chargers then maybe consider a hire car for that use - you'll certainly have saved the money by driving EV the rest of the year.
But also have a look at https://electroverse.octopus.energy/map - you might be surprised! I just did and was
I never thought I would say this, but the new plug in Prius looks good. Around 40 miles on electric only and the reviews that I have seen are getting mid-40's MPG without trying (thats USA gallons too). All for a somewhat reasonable price. Cant help thinking that this covers a lot of use cases. But it is a 'Prius' though.
Aunty Pasty said:
Don't bother with a PHEV unless you have somewhere relatively cheap to recharge the battery. Otherwise you're better off with a normal Hybrid.
Wife bought a Kuga Phev 4 months ago, genuine 40 mile range.Most of her journeys are under 40 miles, average 310mpg to date as not used ‘engine’ much
Relatively cheap place to recharge - granny charger at home.
8p min 0000-0500. Day rate slightly higher than standard. Time appliances to come on during the cheap time. Average - 22p kwh.
Switched insurance from old Kuga diesel to new Kuga Phev - £15 to change it over.
The 2024 Skoda Phevs have 60 mile range..
Edited by James6112 on Thursday 14th December 20:01
I would work out how many miles/year you do with these 60-70 mile journeys.
I used to do 18k miles/year doing 60-70 miles/day. I bought an EV as I saved thousands in petrol. My EV works out about 10x cheaper to run so I personally wouldn't base a car buying decision on 2 long trips to Italy.
Conversely, if those 2 trips equate to more miles than you drive all year then I'd stick with ICE or hybrid.
I used to do 18k miles/year doing 60-70 miles/day. I bought an EV as I saved thousands in petrol. My EV works out about 10x cheaper to run so I personally wouldn't base a car buying decision on 2 long trips to Italy.
Conversely, if those 2 trips equate to more miles than you drive all year then I'd stick with ICE or hybrid.
Knock_knock said:
Hairymonster said:
A friend in the trade tells me that EV's are written off for a relatively small accident because they're too dangerous to work on. Would this apply to a hybrid?
If the above is true, I would imagine insurance could get 'interesting', whereas a minor prang in a petrol car may be remedied easily.
My first EV, a humble Leaf, was in a high-speed head-on collision (combined impact speed 60mph estimated after heavy breaking). The car was written off because airbags galore went bang, seat belt pre-tensioners went whizz, and the car was 60cm shorter meaning the charger and motor were both wreaked. If the above is true, I would imagine insurance could get 'interesting', whereas a minor prang in a petrol car may be remedied easily.
The battery however was assessed as being fine, and the insurers were quite happy as it mean a respectable recoup of costs (as I understand it). I asked as I was very interested, and managed to find out that each cell had been checked and were completely fine, but apparently that's not unusual except where the cars end up on top of something and the battery takes the force. For "normal" impacts the company seemed to think they were generally very well protected.
Insurance will get interesting if you get high powered EV's but otherwise doesn't seem too hideous. Certainly my eNiro has gone up £100 or so, rather than £1000's.
As for your usage case, assuming you can charge at home it sounds perfectly suited to full EV. If Italy really has no chargers then maybe consider a hire car for that use - you'll certainly have saved the money by driving EV the rest of the year.
But also have a look at https://electroverse.octopus.energy/map - you might be surprised! I just did and was
A big shout out in support of the electroverse app/scheme too! It makes life so much easier than separate apps for each charger network.
Hairymonster said:
Hi All,
I'm thinking about changing to an electric vehicle, or possibly a hybrid.
I wanted an EV, so that I could help save the planet for future generations.I'm thinking about changing to an electric vehicle, or possibly a hybrid.
There are plenty of really good battery cars to choose for around £50,000.
Have not found insurance to be much of a problem, although might be slightly more expensive than IC.
Was rather disappointed to find that sometimes, my charging electricty has been 60% generated by burning fossil fuels. The salesman did not tell me that.
Have never experienced any difficulties on long journeys, because I take my diesel car.
Had EVs for eight years, great apart from long distance. For 60-odd mile trips they’re a no brainer unless you want fun served with your journey.
Also had petrol alongside electric for long trips and PH-ness apart from two years with a Tesla that you could actually charge when out and about. Park, open flap, plug in, walk away without looking back. Ten seconds. As it should be.
I used a brand new hybrid this week - it couldn’t get up the hills around here in electric mode and the engine kicked in over 20mph anyway - I can’t see the point for all the extra complexity and weight. Noticeable jolts from the drivetrain when it decided it was running out of puff, crap engine note and more jolts through the brake pedal in traffic when it kicked the engine back in because reasons. CVT gearbox was a further kick in the nuts. Not enjoyable in any way shape or form.
PHEV sounds a far better idea but I’ve no experience of them.
Also had petrol alongside electric for long trips and PH-ness apart from two years with a Tesla that you could actually charge when out and about. Park, open flap, plug in, walk away without looking back. Ten seconds. As it should be.
I used a brand new hybrid this week - it couldn’t get up the hills around here in electric mode and the engine kicked in over 20mph anyway - I can’t see the point for all the extra complexity and weight. Noticeable jolts from the drivetrain when it decided it was running out of puff, crap engine note and more jolts through the brake pedal in traffic when it kicked the engine back in because reasons. CVT gearbox was a further kick in the nuts. Not enjoyable in any way shape or form.
PHEV sounds a far better idea but I’ve no experience of them.
andy43 said:
Had EVs for eight years, great apart from long distance. For 60-odd mile trips they’re a no brainer unless you want fun served with your journey.
Also had petrol alongside electric for long trips and PH-ness apart from two years with a Tesla that you could actually charge when out and about. Park, open flap, plug in, walk away without looking back. Ten seconds. As it should be.
I used a brand new hybrid this week - it couldn’t get up the hills around here in electric mode and the engine kicked in over 20mph anyway - I can’t see the point for all the extra complexity and weight. Noticeable jolts from the drivetrain when it decided it was running out of puff, crap engine note and more jolts through the brake pedal in traffic when it kicked the engine back in because reasons. CVT gearbox was a further kick in the nuts. Not enjoyable in any way shape or form.
PHEV sounds a far better idea but I’ve no experience of them.
What car was that? Mild hybrid I guess?Also had petrol alongside electric for long trips and PH-ness apart from two years with a Tesla that you could actually charge when out and about. Park, open flap, plug in, walk away without looking back. Ten seconds. As it should be.
I used a brand new hybrid this week - it couldn’t get up the hills around here in electric mode and the engine kicked in over 20mph anyway - I can’t see the point for all the extra complexity and weight. Noticeable jolts from the drivetrain when it decided it was running out of puff, crap engine note and more jolts through the brake pedal in traffic when it kicked the engine back in because reasons. CVT gearbox was a further kick in the nuts. Not enjoyable in any way shape or form.
PHEV sounds a far better idea but I’ve no experience of them.
My XC40 plug-in (90bhp electric + 170bhp ICE) is almost seamless in operation, copes with all normal driving in battery mode, and will happily cruise at 70 on electric.
Left in hybrid mode, it's pretty much impossible to tell whether it's running on electric or petrol once doing over 30mph, apart from having a lot more power on tap - unless I look at the instrument panel or turn the radio off.
The only 2 quirks are the brake pedal response as it moves from regen braking to friction braking, and fact that it only uses 2 of the auto gears in electric mode - takes a second to change into higher gear at just under 60mph.
Hairymonster said:
Most of our journeys are less than 60-70 miles, except 2 or 3 times a year we drive to Italy, to a fairly remote region not served by charging stations, or anywhere you can charge a vehicle from a domestic supply.
We have a similar usecase, visit south of Italy or Croatia couple times/year.Italy has gotten a lot better although the south can be somewhat of a charging dessert (except for a couple of strategically placed Tesla SC), I've had no issues locating chargers the last couple of years.
May I ask what region you're going to?
Doing the mountains in Italy btw has been great in a fast EV, wouldn't go back to anything else. Regen downhill and easily overtaking uphill.
As others have mentioned, most PHEV's will struggle with even real world 60 miles anyway, and you're basically maintaining two complete drivetrains for the sake of a couple of trips a year.
The only thing driving a PHEV did to me was in the best case highlighting why I want an EV or want an ICE. To me it wasn't as much as "the best of both worlds", more like a highly compromised vehicle. If you can sort the Italy situation, go full EV, you won't regret it.
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