AM DB11/Vantage/DBSS/DBX platform paint quality - St Athan
Discussion
I know some will be aware of my current gen Vantage from 2019 and the saga with microblisters I had getting it sorted (and in summary Works did an awesome job), despite the delays between we won't cover it being Gaydon's initial feedback to it being inspected by Gaydon to a full review which allowed the roof, bonnet, passenger door and 3/4s being repainted (one at my cost for clarity as it had scratching just above the rear light, but no microblisters).
Chatting with Works they are seeing more current gen Vantages with issues around the rear 3/4, some door issues and bonnet. But most seem rear 3/4 and inner fold areas on doors. So if you are looking or own one keep at eye around the doors and where the 3/4 meets the boot window.
The reason for starting this thread?
My original understanding (and some I spoke with both inside Gaydon and outside Gaydon) was that early Vantages so 2018/2019/2020 (and other models) were ALL painted at Gaydon. The sill plaque saying handmade in England. This compares with later cars saying in general handmade in Great Britain as ALL (non special finishes) are now shipped to Wales for painting post BIW and back to Gaydon to be put on the line.
Sadly, this appears not to be the case as those around the opening of the new site in 2019, 2020 and in early 2021, may have been painted at Gaydon OR St Athan before they fully switched to just St Athan (2021), in general, doing paint (specials still being at Gaydon).
I have become aware via certain information (for obvious reasons I cannot confirm the complete detail of that information, how I came to know about it or the extent of it (read a LOT)) that my car was actually painted at St Athan, not Gaydon, despite being a 2019 car.
Impact?
Well with my car being painted at St Athan, with the new bodyshop, possibly still in early stages at the time, granted, there still might be issues with paint coming from St Athan as opposed to a Gaydon specific issue. Unfortunately as well (and the reason I want to highlight this), some of the cars where microblisters become apparent will be at an age where warranties on paint in general will be ending and you are reliant on essentially mostly goodwill from Gaydon (the corrosion warranty being in general a challenge to fully prove) if doing it via AM not privately.
What would I do? Personally even check even a St Athan's painted car which fully changed over around 2021, but even earlier cars may have ventured to Wales in the new bodyshop which apparently is better than Gaydon...hmm, I am sure some can understand my slight hesistancy on saying better paint quality from there now even with the new bodyshop.
Chatting with Works they are seeing more current gen Vantages with issues around the rear 3/4, some door issues and bonnet. But most seem rear 3/4 and inner fold areas on doors. So if you are looking or own one keep at eye around the doors and where the 3/4 meets the boot window.
The reason for starting this thread?
My original understanding (and some I spoke with both inside Gaydon and outside Gaydon) was that early Vantages so 2018/2019/2020 (and other models) were ALL painted at Gaydon. The sill plaque saying handmade in England. This compares with later cars saying in general handmade in Great Britain as ALL (non special finishes) are now shipped to Wales for painting post BIW and back to Gaydon to be put on the line.
Sadly, this appears not to be the case as those around the opening of the new site in 2019, 2020 and in early 2021, may have been painted at Gaydon OR St Athan before they fully switched to just St Athan (2021), in general, doing paint (specials still being at Gaydon).
- Note sill plaques can be replaced and the owner has the option so is not categorical for the time period where both sites painted cars.*
I have become aware via certain information (for obvious reasons I cannot confirm the complete detail of that information, how I came to know about it or the extent of it (read a LOT)) that my car was actually painted at St Athan, not Gaydon, despite being a 2019 car.
Impact?
Well with my car being painted at St Athan, with the new bodyshop, possibly still in early stages at the time, granted, there still might be issues with paint coming from St Athan as opposed to a Gaydon specific issue. Unfortunately as well (and the reason I want to highlight this), some of the cars where microblisters become apparent will be at an age where warranties on paint in general will be ending and you are reliant on essentially mostly goodwill from Gaydon (the corrosion warranty being in general a challenge to fully prove) if doing it via AM not privately.
What would I do? Personally even check even a St Athan's painted car which fully changed over around 2021, but even earlier cars may have ventured to Wales in the new bodyshop which apparently is better than Gaydon...hmm, I am sure some can understand my slight hesistancy on saying better paint quality from there now even with the new bodyshop.
Edited by Ninja59 on Friday 29th December 17:16
Interesting. But when they say “paint at St Athen” do they mean just colour and clearcoat, or primer as well? Does this mean there are unprimed bodies being shipped to Wales and back? And what about all the exterior bits that used to be painted in the Gaydon Small Parts Paint facility (mirror scalps, etc)? Are they all shipped down the M4 too?
typo fixed
typo fixed
Edited by LTP on Friday 29th December 23:37
LTP said:
... Are they all shipped down the M4 too?
Yes, after negotiating the M40, M42, M5, M50 and A449. A journey of about 270 miles, there and back, for every car.
It was part of Tobias Moer's, Project Horizon efficiency plan. This one exceeded target, because it was literally beyond the horizon, and (now appears) did not even solve the existing paint bubbling problem.
"Sorry, Tobias, you are fired. I have found a 76 year old, who has far more energy than you. Off you go to Piëch Automotive. See how you get on with that idea."
Edited by Jon39 on Saturday 30th December 16:47
LTP said:
Interesting. But when they say “paint at St Athen” do they mean just colour and clearcoat, or primer as well? Does this mean there are unprimed bodies being shipped to Wales and back? And what about all the exterior bits that used to be painted in the Gaydon Small Parts Paint facility (mirror scalps, etc)? Are they all shipped down the M4 too?
typo fixed
All primer, paint and clear is generally done at St Athan now, excluding Q specification cars which is Gaydon for all models. They effectively go from Gaydon to St Athan as a tub using specific jigs and covers (nicknamed nappies) on lorries.typo fixed
Edited by LTP on Friday 29th December 23:37
But as Jon has correctly stated, for many there was a hope/belief the new bodyshop would resolve the issues of essentially contamination impacting paint finish (and the fact that the Gaydon bodyshop has suffered with years of under investment), unfortunately this does not seem the case and fundamentally part of the issue is microblisters can take years to form and are generally not considered corrosion. The issue being in many cases the microblisters are only forming towards the end or unfortunately post the manufacturers warranty at 3 yrs.
Chatting with Work has really opened the door for me to understanding that AM being a small manufacturer brings specific challenges regarding procurement and the quality of incoming panels (read poor). The head of Works bodyshop essentially informed me that sometimes the panels pre coated with e coat end up being more cow like because of imperfections and future rectification.
Additionally, one specific area of challenge relates to gloves being contanminated, which may transfer to the panel and impact the paint down the line.
Equally given the information I have I also know times at which it was finished as a TUB and primed, painted etc. given the hours (read the early hours of a specific day and month) involved I do wonder whether lack of care shall we say is to blame.
Ninja59 said:
All primer, paint and clear is generally done at St Athan now, excluding Q specification cars which is Gaydon for all models. They effectively go from Gaydon to St Athan as a tub using specific jigs and covers (nicknamed nappies) on lorries.
<snip>
And the small colour-keyed parts for each car? Lamp inserts, mirror scalps, bumpers, spoilers, door handles, etc? <snip>
Surely if “contamination” is the fundamental cause then the microblisters would be randomly distributed on the paintwork. This is definitely not the case with the VH cars that have a series of typical places affected on many (? all) cars: by mirror arms, around door handles, corners of bonnet etc. etc.
It may appear "random", but really it is not overall as essentially it is the edge of the panels where handling of them may have occurred during fitment for BIW.
The other issue as play here is similar to corrosion generally speaking once it has taken hold it will spread and be made worse by increases and decreases in temperature and humidity, freezing in particular being the biggest issue.
The micro blisters from what Works have seen have generally been under the entire paint layers which means fundamentally contamination is the source as opposed to moisture in itself being an issue although that element just makes the situation worse.
Prior to my 3/4 being done it probably doubled in size overall from a small patch to two hands worth.
The other issue as play here is similar to corrosion generally speaking once it has taken hold it will spread and be made worse by increases and decreases in temperature and humidity, freezing in particular being the biggest issue.
The micro blisters from what Works have seen have generally been under the entire paint layers which means fundamentally contamination is the source as opposed to moisture in itself being an issue although that element just makes the situation worse.
Prior to my 3/4 being done it probably doubled in size overall from a small patch to two hands worth.
Ninja59 said:
It may appear "random", but really it is not overall as essentially it is the edge of the panels where handling of them may have occurred during fitment for BIW.
The other issue as play here is similar to corrosion generally speaking once it has taken hold it will spread and be made worse by increases and decreases in temperature and humidity, freezing in particular being the biggest issue.
The micro blisters from what Works have seen have generally been under the entire paint layers which means fundamentally contamination is the source as opposed to moisture in itself being an issue although that element just makes the situation worse.
Prior to my 3/4 being done it probably doubled in size overall from a small patch to two hands worth.
The other issue as play here is similar to corrosion generally speaking once it has taken hold it will spread and be made worse by increases and decreases in temperature and humidity, freezing in particular being the biggest issue.
The micro blisters from what Works have seen have generally been under the entire paint layers which means fundamentally contamination is the source as opposed to moisture in itself being an issue although that element just makes the situation worse.
Prior to my 3/4 being done it probably doubled in size overall from a small patch to two hands worth.
I have a pattern of keeping cars for a long time, so have experienced a variation with paint defects, between different manufacturers.
Aston Martin - A special order colour, so either they use a different process, or it might just be luck. Almost no paint bubbles.
Mercedes - Paintwork continues to generally look very good, except for the treated rusty wheel arches. The wheel arch corrosion is not covered by their 30 year corrosion warranty because it is, "The wrong type of rust". Expect British rust is not regarded as proper German corrosion.
Vauxhall - Originally a repmobile, so certainly not a premium car. Now 28 years old, with shiny paintwork and no paint bubbles, or wheel arch rust. Probably helps that it is green and not red or white, because I notice Vauxhalls in those colours become matt as they age.
Why can a cheap car manufacturer, achieve better paintwork results than the supposedly, 'ultra luxury' premium quality, high price lot?
Dewi 2 said:
I have a pattern of keeping cars for a long time, so have experienced a variation with paint defects, between different manufacturers.
Aston Martin - A special order colour, so either they use a different process, or it might just be luck. Almost no paint bubbles.
Mercedes - Paintwork continues to generally look very good, except for the treated rusty wheel arches. The wheel arch corrosion is not covered by their 30 year corrosion warranty because it is, "The wrong type of rust". Expect British rust is not regarded as proper German corrosion.
Vauxhall - Originally a repmobile, so certainly not a premium car. Now 28 years old, with shiny paintwork and no paint bubbles, or wheel arch rust. Probably helps that it is green and not red or white, because I notice Vauxhalls in those colours become matt as they age.
Why can a cheap car manufacturer, achieve better paintwork results than the supposedly, 'ultra luxury' premium quality, high price lot?
Procurement - greater volume, priority to suppliers of said manufacturer meaning sometimes more "consistent quality".
Handmade - potential for greater contamination in prep and during paint, chances are that barely anyone will touch a high volume one prior to going into the various stages of prep, AM it will be the panels being corrected and the potential for contamination from those hands or gloves.
Hand sprayed - all VH cars and some of the AM platform cars were and are handsprayed even now and that leads to the potential issues of the handmade aspect again.
AM specific issues are the Gaydon paint side suffered with years of under investment and a desire to push volume sometimes...humans being what they are, well you can guess the rest.
Also the use of softer clears with lower baking temperatures did not or does not aid AM, it is better now. But given this thread it still does not avoid the contamination issues.
I’m told by someone at Works that corrosion around the recessed door handles is very common, which I imagine is caused by water ingress.
My 2019 car had some rather poor rectification for this issue, spotted by the detailer who was applying a ceramic coating after purchase. I asked the dealer to sort this out, which they did and the paint is now to a high standard.
That and a couple of other telltale signs, such as some minor purplish UV damage on gloss black trim pieces, leads me to the conclusion that the last owner stored the car outside.
My 2019 car had some rather poor rectification for this issue, spotted by the detailer who was applying a ceramic coating after purchase. I asked the dealer to sort this out, which they did and the paint is now to a high standard.
That and a couple of other telltale signs, such as some minor purplish UV damage on gloss black trim pieces, leads me to the conclusion that the last owner stored the car outside.
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