Parking Ticket - No road markings?

[BunkMoreland]

Sorry to bore everyone with another PCN related question.

Came back to my car after a ~8 min park to get something from a shop. Guy was attaching the ticket to the windscreen wiper. Details on the PCN are correct for date, time and car etc. It was roughly 17:30

I was parked on a residential road. There's double yellow lines in one part. But I wasn't on the yellow lines, but just a foot or so short of them. There's no marked bays in the area I parked.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/BZVYDTEe1zARBRog9

(basically dead centre in this pic. Adjacent to the door on the house)

The lamp post has a sign for School on it. And beyond that point to the right is a primary school where traffic access is not allowed at certain times. I was not parked in those times.

However the warden pointed to the smaller sign below the school sign as proof I was in a permit controlled area. And that I was in the active time zones.

But when I asked him where the road markings indicating the controlled area, he just shrugged and said that's how it is. I was obviously polite, (he's enforcing what he's been told to) but told him I'd appeal it.

Surely there needs to be a marked bay or at least something on the road to indicate that this is a controlled area?? I've parked elsewhere in the same borough and its always been a box, with a sign for active times. So this road seems to be the anomaly rather than how the local council operates usually. Strikes me that the council are hoping that people don't realise there's no kerb or road markings and just pay it without question.

So any tips for challenging it? Or should I just write what I've written here?

Thanks for reading

Edited by BunkMoreland on Monday 5th February 20:00

[OutInTheShed]

Are there signs as you enter the zone?

[BunkMoreland]

OutInTheShed said:

Are there signs as you enter the zone?

Yes, but they're bloody small compared to the other signs warning you of the school zone and restricted access. And parallel to the road, not at 90degrees so you'd see them in the dark.

My real issue is, does the lack of road markings mean these signs are insufficient?


https://maps.app.goo.gl/vjGMPWF4fSZpRn8E7

And at the other end of the road

https://maps.app.goo.gl/7Wy5npWTRDWpufWcA

Or do I just pay the £55 and hate the council forever.

[markymarkthree]

Sign says "permit holders only" at the time you were parked there.
Are you a permit holder ?

[BunkMoreland]

markymarkthree said:

Sign says "permit holders only" at the time you were parked there.
Are you a permit holder ?

No.

My mitigation is that this link below is the same council.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/nE8Umb81PPB4QwBs8

Its also a permit area. Mon - Sat with times shown.

But if you scroll out a bit and down to the Red Lexus. There's a marked box with a dotted line to show the areas you need a permit. If the council can just not bother to paint the box, or yellow lines, but put up 2 small signs they will be catching a lot of people out. The big signs you'd have a case to say "you should have seen them" But these little ones are harder to spot

Which feels dodgy at best.

[defblade]

I'd expect boxes, probably marked "Permit holders only" or similar, and I'd have most likely been caught exactly the same way. And probably paying £55

You might have been better off on the poorly maintained, obscured and broken double yellows!

[Actual]

Was there an access restriction to prohibit driving along the road without parking?

I can't think of anywhere where the on road parking is restricted without either a yellow line or a box.

This could be a situation where the local authority has not followed the regulations.

[ridds]

[anonymous-user]

No leg to stand on in this one.

I can get the zone escaped your notice and wasn't presented how'd you like it be, but sadly that's how it is and id just open the wallet, pay what's owed and move on.

It's like moaning the a yellow speed camera wasn't easy to spot.

[wazztie16]

Dash cam that shows signs weren't facing your view on approach? As in flush along the kerb (if I've read your OP correctly).

[E-bmw]

It is along a road, there aren't always "bays" marked on roads as any sized vehicle could be parking there.

Pay up, you missed the warning sign.

[5lab]

I would expect bays, but apparently not needed

regulation here

https://www.appealnow.com/parking-tickets/controll...

[TikTak]

There is literally a little sign about 30 yards down the road from where you parked too. It's a residential parking zone, these things span streets and streets.

Gonna have to pay up.

[r3g]

TikTak said:

There is literally a little sign about 30 yards down the road from where you parked too. It's a residential parking zone, these things span streets and streets.

Gonna have to pay up.

Yes. Not got a leg to stand on. Sign quite clearly says permit holders only for all of that section of unmarked road within the times listed below. 1730 required you to be a permit holder.

[Ezra]

The thing is....one takes a bit of a risk, one gets caught, one then either i) coughs up and moves on or ii) wriggles to get off the hook. Boils down to how much you can be bothered to appeal it. My view...you've no chance.

[Colonel Cupcake]

I assume you have nothing to lose by appealing. If so, at least give them some work to do for their money.

[Granadier]

I must admit I might have got caught out by this one, and I live just outside Sutton borough. I know it's my fault for being out of date, but to my mind kerbside space with no yellow/red line and no white box means no parking restriction. I'm not used to whole sections of street being out of bounds, only marked by a single sign at the entry point. Will have to look out for these in future.

[wyson]

The gateway thing that ridds posted made it clear to me. I was confused as heck before this. But this scenario is new to me as well. Have only really seen red route gateways like this before but if the zone is clearly signposted like this, you don't necessarily need markings inside. You really need to read every single road sign.

Edited by wyson on Tuesday 6th February 16:07

[rayny]

For what it is worth - I have found some local authoritys' can be reasonable. If it is your first ticket within that area they may be good enough to cancel the ticket on appeal
Brighton & Hove cancelled one for me - But it did take them about four months.
Crawley cancelled one for me - It only took them about 3 days.

[BunkMoreland]

defblade said:

I'd expect boxes, probably marked "Permit holders only" or similar, and I'd have most likely been caught exactly the same way. And probably paying £55

You might have been better off on the poorly maintained, obscured and broken double yellows!

Yup. I have actually parked in this road before, ages ago. But never had any problems so I guess I was outside the operational times.

Granadier said:

I must admit I might have got caught out by this one, and I live just outside Sutton borough. I know it's my fault for being out of date, but to my mind kerbside space with no yellow/red line and no white box means no parking restriction. I'm not used to whole sections of street being out of bounds, only marked by a single sign at the entry point. Will have to look out for these in future.

Its a new one to me too! I think its a bit ridiculous! I bet a LOT of people fall foul of it!

Actual said:

Was there an access restriction to prohibit driving along the road without parking?

I can't think of anywhere where the on road parking is restricted without either a yellow line or a box.

This could be a situation where the local authority has not followed the regulations.

I've gone down the appeal route of saying "you dont do this anywhere else in the borough, so how would anyone know the new rules?" Probably in vain, but #wastetheirtime

lord trumpton said:

No leg to stand on in this one.

I can get the zone escaped your notice and wasn't presented how'd you like it be, but sadly that's how it is and id just open the wallet, pay what's owed and move on.

It's like moaning the a yellow speed camera wasn't easy to spot.

You're probably right.

But I liken this to a speed camera being installed in a road that suddenly drops to 20mph limit from 40mph with a few tiny signs.

Colonel Cupcake said:

I assume you have nothing to lose by appealing. If so, at least give them some work to do for their money.

I have appealed. Whether it works or not, like you say, make them work for it! Its funny cause I actually clocked the traffic warden round the corner when I parked, but thought "its ok, I'm not in the restricted bit by the school"

rayny said:

For what it is worth - I have found some local authoritys' can be reasonable. If it is your first ticket within that area they may be good enough to cancel the ticket on appeal

Its only my 2nd parking ticket since 1998. So I'm doing alright really. And even that was me buying a pay and display ticket for a bay, opposite the ticket machine. But not noticing that 1 side was for permits and 1 was for anybody with a ticket. (Bloody Merton council! )