Are languages and culture linked?
Discussion
Taking two languages and cultures I have some familiarity with: Danish and Japanese.
Denmark is a very egalitarian country. Everyone is on first name terms, organisations are very flat and junior employees are not chastised for giving their views to their seniors. Danes are also blunt and pragmatic (bordering on the prosaic). Danish as a language is the same. There is now just one form of “you”, no real honorifics and the language itself if very much no nonsense (apart from how it sounds, which is awful and like someone speaking under water!) There is no beauty to the language but it is very logical and straightforward. Much more so than English, despite being closely related.
Japan is very hierarchical and there are strict rules that everyone has to follow. People are very worried about what others think of them and of imposing on others. Age is very important with people just one year older deferred to as “seniors”.
This is reflected in the language too. There are many different ways of saying “you” and in fact swearing is often calling someone “you” but using a lower status or informal word. There are lots of linguistic tricks in Japanese to avoid being blunt and giving an opinion, or couching it in passive language. There are also ways beyond the use of different forms of “you” to show deference and respect to someone.
The language is also much richer, beautiful and often ambiguous - as if being too direct and clear in your speech is already imposing your view on someone else. They should be free to decide what you mean!
Denmark is a very egalitarian country. Everyone is on first name terms, organisations are very flat and junior employees are not chastised for giving their views to their seniors. Danes are also blunt and pragmatic (bordering on the prosaic). Danish as a language is the same. There is now just one form of “you”, no real honorifics and the language itself if very much no nonsense (apart from how it sounds, which is awful and like someone speaking under water!) There is no beauty to the language but it is very logical and straightforward. Much more so than English, despite being closely related.
Japan is very hierarchical and there are strict rules that everyone has to follow. People are very worried about what others think of them and of imposing on others. Age is very important with people just one year older deferred to as “seniors”.
This is reflected in the language too. There are many different ways of saying “you” and in fact swearing is often calling someone “you” but using a lower status or informal word. There are lots of linguistic tricks in Japanese to avoid being blunt and giving an opinion, or couching it in passive language. There are also ways beyond the use of different forms of “you” to show deference and respect to someone.
The language is also much richer, beautiful and often ambiguous - as if being too direct and clear in your speech is already imposing your view on someone else. They should be free to decide what you mean!
I remember in Germany everyone called me ‘Dr’ (academic, not medical) and someone took me to one side that I had to explicitly tell them it was ok to call me by my first name. It really felt weird, this was people in a job, not an academic situation and applied through most of the hierarchy in the company.
For a culture that has the reputation for being efficient,
logical and structured German wordage is somewhat
lumpen, simplistic and hilariously wasteful of letters.
As Mark Twain said " some German words are so long they have perspective "
Freundschaftsbeziehungen: Friendship to you and me.
Nahrungsmittelunverträglichkeit : Food Allergy
Rechtsschutzversicherungsgesellschaften : Insurance Companies.
logical and structured German wordage is somewhat
lumpen, simplistic and hilariously wasteful of letters.
As Mark Twain said " some German words are so long they have perspective "
Freundschaftsbeziehungen: Friendship to you and me.
Nahrungsmittelunverträglichkeit : Food Allergy
Rechtsschutzversicherungsgesellschaften : Insurance Companies.
Yes, of course they are. Without wishing to sound patronizing, the fields of linguistics, anthropology, semiotics, literary criticism, sociology, philosophy and the rest have been inextricably linked for a century or so. Someone like Noam Chomsky or M A K Halliday has his fingers in all sorts of pies, as did Roland Barthes, Saussure, Derrida and the rest.
The production of language is the same as the production of anything else - driven, from the Marxian perspective, by the usual forces of production present in a society. The language that is produced goes on to have influence elsewhere, by bearing upon the culture that created it. Round and round goes the wheel...
Sorry, but nothing new or revelatory to see here. The new and revelatory stuff is in Barthes and his ilk. Read them with open eyes and open mind.
The production of language is the same as the production of anything else - driven, from the Marxian perspective, by the usual forces of production present in a society. The language that is produced goes on to have influence elsewhere, by bearing upon the culture that created it. Round and round goes the wheel...
Sorry, but nothing new or revelatory to see here. The new and revelatory stuff is in Barthes and his ilk. Read them with open eyes and open mind.
Nethybridge said:
For a culture that has the reputation for being efficient,
logical and structured German wordage is somewhat
lumpen, simplistic and hilariously wasteful of letters.
As Mark Twain said " some German words are so long they have perspective "
Freundschaftsbeziehungen: Friendship to you and me.
Nahrungsmittelunverträglichkeit : Food Allergy
Rechtsschutzversicherungsgesellschaften : Insurance Companies.
I don’t think those translations are accurate. It is making it look like German is bad.logical and structured German wordage is somewhat
lumpen, simplistic and hilariously wasteful of letters.
As Mark Twain said " some German words are so long they have perspective "
Freundschaftsbeziehungen: Friendship to you and me.
Nahrungsmittelunverträglichkeit : Food Allergy
Rechtsschutzversicherungsgesellschaften : Insurance Companies.
For example the last one means legal protection insurance companies. Insurance companies is just Versicherungsgesellschaften.
German is an amazing language. IMO of course. I was just reading The Tin Drum this morning. Amazing language.
Nethybridge said:
For a culture that has the reputation for being efficient,
logical and structured German wordage is somewhat
lumpen, simplistic and hilariously wasteful of letters.
As Mark Twain said " some German words are so long they have perspective "
Freundschaftsbeziehungen: Friendship to you and me.
Nahrungsmittelunverträglichkeit : Food Allergy
Rechtsschutzversicherungsgesellschaften : Insurance Companies.
That’s just agglutination, many languages have a similar featurelogical and structured German wordage is somewhat
lumpen, simplistic and hilariously wasteful of letters.
As Mark Twain said " some German words are so long they have perspective "
Freundschaftsbeziehungen: Friendship to you and me.
Nahrungsmittelunverträglichkeit : Food Allergy
Rechtsschutzversicherungsgesellschaften : Insurance Companies.
It’s only an issue if you can’t immediately parse the component words
We do it to an extent in English - we combine foot and ball to create a new concept
German just takes it a little further, like Fußballweltmeisterschaft
In terms of average word length compared to English, German is lengthier than English but my no means the most extreme example (translators of computer user interfaces use multipliers depending on the target language; I seem to recall allowing for 1.4x the text space for Finnish)
Skeptisk said:
Taking two languages and cultures I have some familiarity with: Danish and Japanese.
Denmark is a very egalitarian country. Everyone is on first name terms, organisations are very flat and junior employees are not chastised for giving their views to their seniors. Danes are also blunt and pragmatic (bordering on the prosaic). Danish as a language is the same. There is now just one form of “you”, no real honorifics and the language itself if very much no nonsense (apart from how it sounds, which is awful and like someone speaking under water!) There is no beauty to the language but it is very logical and straightforward. Much more so than English, despite being closely related.
Japan is very hierarchical and there are strict rules that everyone has to follow. People are very worried about what others think of them and of imposing on others. Age is very important with people just one year older deferred to as “seniors”.
This is reflected in the language too. There are many different ways of saying “you” and in fact swearing is often calling someone “you” but using a lower status or informal word. There are lots of linguistic tricks in Japanese to avoid being blunt and giving an opinion, or couching it in passive language. There are also ways beyond the use of different forms of “you” to show deference and respect to someone.
The language is also much richer, beautiful and often ambiguous - as if being too direct and clear in your speech is already imposing your view on someone else. They should be free to decide what you mean!
It remains to be seenDenmark is a very egalitarian country. Everyone is on first name terms, organisations are very flat and junior employees are not chastised for giving their views to their seniors. Danes are also blunt and pragmatic (bordering on the prosaic). Danish as a language is the same. There is now just one form of “you”, no real honorifics and the language itself if very much no nonsense (apart from how it sounds, which is awful and like someone speaking under water!) There is no beauty to the language but it is very logical and straightforward. Much more so than English, despite being closely related.
Japan is very hierarchical and there are strict rules that everyone has to follow. People are very worried about what others think of them and of imposing on others. Age is very important with people just one year older deferred to as “seniors”.
This is reflected in the language too. There are many different ways of saying “you” and in fact swearing is often calling someone “you” but using a lower status or informal word. There are lots of linguistic tricks in Japanese to avoid being blunt and giving an opinion, or couching it in passive language. There are also ways beyond the use of different forms of “you” to show deference and respect to someone.
The language is also much richer, beautiful and often ambiguous - as if being too direct and clear in your speech is already imposing your view on someone else. They should be free to decide what you mean!
mikef said:
In terms of average word length compared to English, German is lengthier than English but my no means the most extreme example (translators of computer user interfaces use multipliers depending on the target language; I seem to recall allowing for 1.4x the text space for Finnish)
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