Perhaps Clarke is not yesterday's man after all.
Discussion
Telegraph Article below
Clarke wins backing of Tory faithful
By Toby Helm, Chief Political Correspondent
(Filed: 10/09/2005)
Kenneth Clarke has overtaken his main rival, David Davis, as the favourite among Tory party members to replace Michael Howard as leader, a YouGov poll for The Daily Telegraph says today.
Kenneth Clarke: ‘really delighted at the growing support’
In what now promises to be a neck and neck, two-horse race, 33 per cent of rank-and-file Tories regard the 65-year-old former chancellor as the best person for the job, compared with 28 per cent who favour Mr Davis.
The poll shows a remarkable turnaround in the popularity of Mr Clarke, who has enjoyed a surge of publicity since he confirmed 10 days ago that he would stand.
It suggests that he could win even if party members, who have traditionally been hostile to him because of his pro-European views, retain the final vote in the leadership contest.
In May, Mr Clarke was the favoured choice of only 10 per cent of party members, while 35 per cent wanted Mr Davis, the shadow home secretary.
While 97 per cent of those questioned still think Mr Clarke is too keen on European integration and 48 per cent object to having a leader who has been the deputy chairman of British American Tobacco, hostility is waning. In May, 54 per cent said he should definitely not be leader, compared with 37 per cent now.
Mr Clarke said last night that he was "really delighted at the growing support coming from across the party. I intend in the coming months to build on that support and on the confidence the party has in me."
The figures are worrying for the Davis camp but far from disastrous. When members were asked, separately, whom they would back if there was a run-off between the two, 48 per cent said Mr Davis and 45 per cent Mr Clarke.
Mr Davis's supporters also claim to have the support of about twice as many MPs as Mr Clarke.
Only 17 per cent of members said they wanted David Cameron, the youngest candidate (up two per cent on May); eight per cent opted for Liam Fox (down one); and four per cent for Sir Malcolm Rifkind (down two).
Three per cent said they did not want any of them and seven per cent said they had not made up their minds.
A surprise finding in the survey is that 63 per cent of members favour the controversial reform plan under which they would give up the final say over who should be leader and hand it back to MPs, compared with 31 per cent who are against it.
Francis Maude, the party chairman, said: "This bears out our earlier impression that most members of the voluntary party want the MPs to have the final say."
Some MPs were speculating that the outcome of the contest could be the opposite of what they predicted a few weeks ago. Then, most Tories believed that Mr Clarke would have no chance if the final vote remained with members.
The other candidates will now come under pressure to throw in the towel and back either Mr Davis or Mr Clarke.
Mr Cameron continued with his campaign yesterday, arguing that the party had to achieve radical reform of public services and demonstrate clearly that it would improve the lot of the poorest and most vulnerable people.
Speaking in Portsmouth, he said the Conservatives had not been trusted to implement reform because they had failed to make clear that they were a party for all sections of the community.
He also called for directly elected local police commissioners, so that people could hold one individual to account for the performance of their force.
I myself wrote Clarke off but now I am not so sure.
His pro-European views are not so much an issue any more, becuase the two key problems the Euro and the Constitution will remain dead for the foreseeable future.
Some regard him as being too old, it is interesting though that while the population of Britain ages, politicians are expected to be younger.
So I remain undecided, but don't think that making Clarke leader will be some magic cure. The Tories need to offer a genuine alternative to Labour, which will require much thought on how to take the public sector in a new direction. Whoever they elect as Leader there is still allot of work to do.
His pro-European views are not so much an issue any more, becuase the two key problems the Euro and the Constitution will remain dead for the foreseeable future.
Some regard him as being too old, it is interesting though that while the population of Britain ages, politicians are expected to be younger.
So I remain undecided, but don't think that making Clarke leader will be some magic cure. The Tories need to offer a genuine alternative to Labour, which will require much thought on how to take the public sector in a new direction. Whoever they elect as Leader there is still allot of work to do.
unrepentant said:
unrepentant said:
The bottom line is that we need a leader who can get rid of Labour.
And Ken's the only one.
Power over principle, it was how the Tory party used to be, perhaps we need to rediscover our old ways.
It worked for Labour.
I'm assuming you DO mean Labour discovered the Tory party's old ways? That's the Tories' big problem - Tony B has the centre-right sewn up.
Prof Beard
yertis said:
Surely no one south of the border will vote for that despicable one-eyed Scottish closet-communist Brown?
How I hate him. My hatred for him and his party knows no limits.
The quality of your political arguements is really most impressive!
I am no lover of new labour, but all public research done indicates that Brown will be more popular than Blair. Given the dismal lack of quality in the oppostion(even with Clarke), I think the Tories will still have no hope. There appears no coherent "political ground" for them to seize, as long as new labour maintain a centre-right stance.
Prof Beard
>> Edited by Prof Beard on Saturday 10th September 18:07
yertis said:
Surely no one south of the border will vote for that despicable one-eyed Scottish closet-communist Brown?
Actually that is a real problem for Brown becoming leader...the very effect you describe. Not sure he'd get the backing from the overall Labour party as some MPs will fear that effect. If he does become Labour leader in time for the next election (very possible I'd say) then no doubt there will be a cost in English votes.
Whether its enough to sway things is another matter.
I'd like to think people would listen to what he has to say and decide on that basis whether or not to vote for him. (Preferably NOT!) But its more likely they'll vote for the most professional looking one...
I think charisma has a lot to do with it. Clarke has bucketloads, Brown has erm .... NIL !
Also, Clarke has the credibility and sharpness of wit to outflank Brown/Blair in the blink of an eye. He just needs, as has been mentioned, the Political stance and a solid team behind him.
I wish he had done this before Labours second term though. Could have saved me a lot of disappointment.
Also, Clarke has the credibility and sharpness of wit to outflank Brown/Blair in the blink of an eye. He just needs, as has been mentioned, the Political stance and a solid team behind him.
I wish he had done this before Labours second term though. Could have saved me a lot of disappointment.
Prof Beard said:
JagLover said:
unrepentant said:
The bottom line is that we need a leader who can get rid of Labour.
And Ken's the only one.
Power over principle, it was how the Tory party used to be, perhaps we need to rediscover our old ways.
It worked for Labour.
I'm assuming you DO mean Labour discovered the Tory party's old ways? That's the Tories' big problem - Tony B has the centre-right sewn up.
Prof Beard
No, that is this Government's most effective lie. Labour remains an interventionist Government of high taxes and nannying diktats. It is operated by a bunch of unreconstructed socialists with communist instincts, happy to bastardise their principles because they know that the only way they can remain in power is to repeat this lie whilst lurching ever further leftwards. This Government isn't even honest with itself, let alone the nation's voters. I'm looking forward to Brown taking over and the wolf casting off its sheep's clothing. The end is nigh for "New" Labour.
Mon Ami Mate said:
No, that is this Government's most effective lie. Labour remains an interventionist Government of high taxes and nannying diktats. It is operated by a bunch of unreconstructed socialists with communist instincts, happy to bastardise their principles because they know that the only way they can remain in power is to repeat this lie whilst lurching ever further leftwards. This Government isn't even honest with itself, let alone the nation's voters. I'm looking forward to Brown taking over and the wolf casting off its sheep's clothing. The end is nigh for "New" Labour.
Frankly, I consider this just plain daft - no political analysis I have EVER seen has characterised our current pile of shite as "left" - and to say they are "lurching leftwards" just defies belief!
prof Beard
Prof Beard said:
No, that is this Government's most effective lie. Labour remains an interventionist Government of high taxes and nannying diktats. It is operated by a bunch of unreconstructed socialists with communist instincts, happy to bastardise their principles because they know that the only way they can remain in power is to repeat this lie whilst lurching ever further leftwards. This Government isn't even honest with itself, let alone the nation's voters. I'm looking forward to Brown taking over and the wolf casting off its sheep's clothing. The end is nigh for "New" Labour.
Frankly, I consider this just plain daft - no political analysis I have EVER seen has characterised our current pile of shite as "left" - and to say they are "lurching leftwards" just defies belief!
tax and spend is a labour trait and this is exactly what is happening now, they need more money from the tax coffers to spend on yet more and more outrageous projects. the unions have been given back powers and are asking for more (flying pickets in this mornings papers). red tape has increased (again) dramatically since they gained power.
the amount of interference the Govt is dictating to make a perfect society is getting suffocating. these are all left wing policies of control.
if brown gets into power then we can expect to have more union influence and higher taxes. brown is old school labour and we are going to get
ed if he gets in.Prof Beard said:
No, that is this Government's most effective lie. Labour remains an interventionist Government of high taxes and nannying diktats. It is operated by a bunch of unreconstructed socialists with communist instincts, happy to bastardise their principles because they know that the only way they can remain in power is to repeat this lie whilst lurching ever further leftwards. This Government isn't even honest with itself, let alone the nation's voters. I'm looking forward to Brown taking over and the wolf casting off its sheep's clothing. The end is nigh for "New" Labour.
Frankly, I consider this just plain daft - no political analysis I have EVER seen has characterised our current pile of shite as "left" - and to say they are "lurching leftwards" just defies belief!
prof Beard
You are mistaking Labour propaganda, with their actions, look at actual and projected government spending and taxation. Look at the centralised way Labour runs public services.
Labour may have moved to the centre since their Looney left days of the eighties, but they are by no means centre right.
MonAmiMate is correct, that once Mr Blair goes, and we are left with the dour Scottish Socialist, then people might pay more attention to the practical effect of Labour's policies, rather than the language they camouflage them with.
Jaglover said:
You are mistaking Labour propaganda, with their actions, look at actual and projected government spending and taxation. Look at the centralised way Labour runs public services.
Labour may have moved to the centre since their Looney left days of the eighties, but they are by no means centre right.
MonAmiMate is correct, that once Mr Blair goes, and we are left with the dour Scottish Socialist, then people might pay more attention to the practical effect of Labour's policies, rather than the language they camouflage them with.
I can show at least one view which indicates Blair as centre right (will post that as a separate thread in a bit).
No-one I've come across who would describe themselves as a socialist would describe this government as socialist (closet or otherwise). I reiterate my point that the shift towards indirect taxation that GB has led tends to hit the poor more than the wealthy. On the otherhand he HAS attempted some redistribution of wealth in other ways, to be fair. However to call the overall impact indictive of socialist intent, is to someone like myself who is firmly on the economic far left, no so much guilding the lily as polishing a turd.
You are all clearly sincere in your views, so I will offer advice aimed at those hoping to restore Tory fortunes: Trying to think of, or describe, the current government as any more left wing than centre, is just wishful thinking - you must come up with a Tory party with something new to say to those of right and centre-right views. Just playing the "closet commie" card won't work.
(Count yourself lucky - who does a real red like me vote for?)
Prof Beard
Ooooh!..............an' then we can all go back to the loving, caring, sharing "christian?" God fearing people we know and love to call: "concervatives!".
Are these the same people who gave us 9 million unemployed some years ago and then called them all "lazy scrounging bastards" for 18 years?......
BTW JagLover, told you some time ago about Ken didn't I?
Listen to your old uncle 8Pack eh?........
Edit: Oh! sorry............"Right on Prof!
>> Edited by 8Pack on Sunday 11th September 00:43
Are these the same people who gave us 9 million unemployed some years ago and then called them all "lazy scrounging bastards" for 18 years?......
BTW JagLover, told you some time ago about Ken didn't I?
Listen to your old uncle 8Pack eh?........
Edit: Oh! sorry............"Right on Prof!
>> Edited by 8Pack on Sunday 11th September 00:43
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