Court appointed deputy
Discussion
Has anyone had experience of applying to become a court appointed deputy for someone else's finances?
DWP have already granted me representative rights for my father, but Hampshire county council and Barclays are insisting that I go the court appointed route.
My father has a fairly aggressive form of dementia and has been deemed to lack mental capacity, he has gone into a care home and won't be going home, and for his own safety is the subject of a DOLS order.
After wasting my time with Barclays and HCC I went looking at the .GOV website and discovered to my horror that it's going to cost around £900 in fees to hopefully be appointed.
I just wondered if anyone else had been through this and could offer any advice?
DWP have already granted me representative rights for my father, but Hampshire county council and Barclays are insisting that I go the court appointed route.
My father has a fairly aggressive form of dementia and has been deemed to lack mental capacity, he has gone into a care home and won't be going home, and for his own safety is the subject of a DOLS order.
After wasting my time with Barclays and HCC I went looking at the .GOV website and discovered to my horror that it's going to cost around £900 in fees to hopefully be appointed.
I just wondered if anyone else had been through this and could offer any advice?
A very difficult situation for you and the financial arrangements start to conflict and take more importance than your relationship with your father.
I went through similar with my dad who had late life mental issues before he died and now I am helping my uncle but thankfully already had full LPA arranged for both so the administration is easier for me but the procedures and barriers can still be onerous and frustrating.
When I was dealing with my fathers affairs and the authorities were a blocker I just asked them to get on with it. A good example was home care where they wanted me to put in place a whole raft of things which were impossible for me to arrange without detailed knowledge of the care industry. In the event the local authority who were Hampshire just continued day to day until the inevitable came to pass.
This will sound harsh but what is the worst that could happen to your father if things carry on as they are? Presumably most existing regular bills will continue on direct debit and the authorities are hardly going to put him out of the care home and onto the streets?
I wish you the best.
I went through similar with my dad who had late life mental issues before he died and now I am helping my uncle but thankfully already had full LPA arranged for both so the administration is easier for me but the procedures and barriers can still be onerous and frustrating.
When I was dealing with my fathers affairs and the authorities were a blocker I just asked them to get on with it. A good example was home care where they wanted me to put in place a whole raft of things which were impossible for me to arrange without detailed knowledge of the care industry. In the event the local authority who were Hampshire just continued day to day until the inevitable came to pass.
This will sound harsh but what is the worst that could happen to your father if things carry on as they are? Presumably most existing regular bills will continue on direct debit and the authorities are hardly going to put him out of the care home and onto the streets?
I wish you the best.
TheDrownedApe said:
No idea about that but why does a "lasting power of attorney" not cover everything you need whilst he is alive?
I have this on both:
Property and financial affairs
Health and Welfare
Good luck
Because it's not in place the and OP's father doesn't have the mental capacity to grant itI have this on both:
Property and financial affairs
Health and Welfare
Good luck
Bobberoo said:
Has anyone had experience of applying to become a court appointed deputy for someone else's finances?
DWP have already granted me representative rights for my father, but Hampshire county council and Barclays are insisting that I go the court appointed route.
My father has a fairly aggressive form of dementia and has been deemed to lack mental capacity, he has gone into a care home and won't be going home, and for his own safety is the subject of a DOLS order.
After wasting my time with Barclays and HCC I went looking at the .GOV website and discovered to my horror that it's going to cost around £900 in fees to hopefully be appointed.
I just wondered if anyone else had been through this and could offer any advice?
Sympathies to you and of course your Father.DWP have already granted me representative rights for my father, but Hampshire county council and Barclays are insisting that I go the court appointed route.
My father has a fairly aggressive form of dementia and has been deemed to lack mental capacity, he has gone into a care home and won't be going home, and for his own safety is the subject of a DOLS order.
After wasting my time with Barclays and HCC I went looking at the .GOV website and discovered to my horror that it's going to cost around £900 in fees to hopefully be appointed.
I just wondered if anyone else had been through this and could offer any advice?
Without the LPA obviously, going the deputy route is I believe your only realistic option and to add further " pain " when I looked into this all a while back its also the time element it may take to achieve which iirc was about 6 months.
I was able to do some assisting without for another relative, using the " litigation friend " route but that was specifically for dealing with a contested will from a third party.
in my case having an LPA ( for Finance and Health ) in place didn't guarantee it was still plain sailing as I found that dealing with individual entities , the experience differed widely - NS&I for example just appalling whereas Nationwide couldn't do enough !
Best of luck.
Thank you for your replies, much appreciated.
To clarify things, by the time it became apparent that my father was deteriorating quickly it was already too late to apply for an LPA.
Once he'd been diagnosed with dementia i was no longer able to apply for an LPA as he was deemed to lack mental capacity.
DWP have acted quickly and dealt with it far better than anyone else involved.
I think that at present it won't really change too much where his finances are concerned, however it may become more difficult to pay bills as they appear.
To clarify things, by the time it became apparent that my father was deteriorating quickly it was already too late to apply for an LPA.
Once he'd been diagnosed with dementia i was no longer able to apply for an LPA as he was deemed to lack mental capacity.
DWP have acted quickly and dealt with it far better than anyone else involved.
I think that at present it won't really change too much where his finances are concerned, however it may become more difficult to pay bills as they appear.
OP - sympathies
In my experience (discharging people from hospital in your dad's situation), the local authority expect to pick up the tab until an alternative decision making mechanism is in place. Social Worker is essential to make this happen. If he is subject to DoL then a decision making professional has deemed that the care placement is in his best interests so they can't kick him out willy nilly. He may be eligible for care which is deemed nursing being state funded (although this is negligible compared with the 'hotel' costs).
Don't be tempted to pay yourself or fudge it in any way.
Sorting out deputyship costs substantially more than LPA. On top of the court fees there will be solicitors costs. However these costs can be recovered from your dad's assets once the order is in place. The court is usually quite speciific in relation to what sort of decisions can be made by the deputy. If you want to have the power to refuse medical treatment or have final say on social care issues (equivalent to health and welfare power of attorney), on your dad's behalf then you'll need to discuss this with the solicitor as the court will otherwise to make fairly specific powers in regard to finances.
If you have any siblings or he has a surviving spouse make sure they are kept up to speed. If there's any disagreement/contention in the court process it will send costs spiralling
If he has been in hospital under s.3 of the Mental Health Act (or is admitted in future under s.3) he is entitled to aftercare paid by the state under s.117
Casual readers - make sure you and your parents have LPA sorted out.
In my experience (discharging people from hospital in your dad's situation), the local authority expect to pick up the tab until an alternative decision making mechanism is in place. Social Worker is essential to make this happen. If he is subject to DoL then a decision making professional has deemed that the care placement is in his best interests so they can't kick him out willy nilly. He may be eligible for care which is deemed nursing being state funded (although this is negligible compared with the 'hotel' costs).
Don't be tempted to pay yourself or fudge it in any way.
Sorting out deputyship costs substantially more than LPA. On top of the court fees there will be solicitors costs. However these costs can be recovered from your dad's assets once the order is in place. The court is usually quite speciific in relation to what sort of decisions can be made by the deputy. If you want to have the power to refuse medical treatment or have final say on social care issues (equivalent to health and welfare power of attorney), on your dad's behalf then you'll need to discuss this with the solicitor as the court will otherwise to make fairly specific powers in regard to finances.
If you have any siblings or he has a surviving spouse make sure they are kept up to speed. If there's any disagreement/contention in the court process it will send costs spiralling
If he has been in hospital under s.3 of the Mental Health Act (or is admitted in future under s.3) he is entitled to aftercare paid by the state under s.117
Casual readers - make sure you and your parents have LPA sorted out.
Edited by oddman on Friday 8th March 14:09
Thank you oddman.
I think I'm only applying for deputyship for his finances as it will make things easier when adult social services finally got funding arranged, he has two pensions coming in which he does pay some tax on, I know when we went through the whole care process with MIL we were fortunate enough to have arranged an LPA beforehand which did make things easier, I know that the deputyship will be quite limited but at least I'll be able to fill in the assessment forms for his contribution without having to go through hoops.
I think I'm only applying for deputyship for his finances as it will make things easier when adult social services finally got funding arranged, he has two pensions coming in which he does pay some tax on, I know when we went through the whole care process with MIL we were fortunate enough to have arranged an LPA beforehand which did make things easier, I know that the deputyship will be quite limited but at least I'll be able to fill in the assessment forms for his contribution without having to go through hoops.
Bobberoo said:
Thank you oddman.
I think I'm only applying for deputyship for his finances as it will make things easier when adult social services finally got funding arranged, he has two pensions coming in which he does pay some tax on, I know when we went through the whole care process with MIL we were fortunate enough to have arranged an LPA beforehand which did make things easier, I know that the deputyship will be quite limited but at least I'll be able to fill in the assessment forms for his contribution without having to go through hoops.
Might it not be a good idea to get deputyship for health and welfare decisions at the the same time? You don't want to be without that capability when decisions need to be made - they'll be time critical.I think I'm only applying for deputyship for his finances as it will make things easier when adult social services finally got funding arranged, he has two pensions coming in which he does pay some tax on, I know when we went through the whole care process with MIL we were fortunate enough to have arranged an LPA beforehand which did make things easier, I know that the deputyship will be quite limited but at least I'll be able to fill in the assessment forms for his contribution without having to go through hoops.
BertBert said:
Bobberoo said:
Thank you oddman.
I think I'm only applying for deputyship for his finances as it will make things easier when adult social services finally got funding arranged, he has two pensions coming in which he does pay some tax on, I know when we went through the whole care process with MIL we were fortunate enough to have arranged an LPA beforehand which did make things easier, I know that the deputyship will be quite limited but at least I'll be able to fill in the assessment forms for his contribution without having to go through hoops.
Might it not be a good idea to get deputyship for health and welfare decisions at the the same time? You don't want to be without that capability when decisions need to be made - they'll be time critical.I think I'm only applying for deputyship for his finances as it will make things easier when adult social services finally got funding arranged, he has two pensions coming in which he does pay some tax on, I know when we went through the whole care process with MIL we were fortunate enough to have arranged an LPA beforehand which did make things easier, I know that the deputyship will be quite limited but at least I'll be able to fill in the assessment forms for his contribution without having to go through hoops.
Bobberoo said:
Before he was diagnosed with dementia my father had it added to his notes that he was non resuscitate, I don't want to be making those decisions, I will leave his health care decisions to the professionals.
DNR is one thing but there could also be other decisions that might also need taking. I’m thinking of a fall , whether an infection that needs drugs or not and more importantly when to necessarily stop taking those drugs etc.
Professionals will be giving the advice but they may require a “sign off” from you.
I’ve had to go through this with my Aunt and my wife has with her Mum.
Bobberoo said:
BertBert said:
Bobberoo said:
Thank you oddman.
I think I'm only applying for deputyship for his finances as it will make things easier when adult social services finally got funding arranged, he has two pensions coming in which he does pay some tax on, I know when we went through the whole care process with MIL we were fortunate enough to have arranged an LPA beforehand which did make things easier, I know that the deputyship will be quite limited but at least I'll be able to fill in the assessment forms for his contribution without having to go through hoops.
Might it not be a good idea to get deputyship for health and welfare decisions at the the same time? You don't want to be without that capability when decisions need to be made - they'll be time critical.I think I'm only applying for deputyship for his finances as it will make things easier when adult social services finally got funding arranged, he has two pensions coming in which he does pay some tax on, I know when we went through the whole care process with MIL we were fortunate enough to have arranged an LPA beforehand which did make things easier, I know that the deputyship will be quite limited but at least I'll be able to fill in the assessment forms for his contribution without having to go through hoops.
In my practice I don't make much distinction between the wishes and feelings of a relative with or without the power of veto that an LPA or CAD gives them because if I've explained the treatment or plan properly I don't expect us to disagree. If we disagree it pulls me up and makes me explore the issue further - either there's information that makes me change my mind or I need to explain my decision better. However occasionally you can butt up against a practitioner who isn't listening or may not be acting in your dad's best interests (eg. lots of patients with end stage dementia get sent into hospital when they are unwell when they should receive palliative care in situ ). Being an appointee doesn't make you the decision maker but whoever is making the decision MUST consult with you and take account of your views. So it can be handy.
TBF the court is unlikely to give you a blank cheque type power for health and welfare decision making unless it's reasonably forseeable that health or welfare decisions need to be made. I was just suggesting it's something you might discuss with the solicitor because it would be easier to get it done in one go along with the financial deciion making deputyship.
Edited by oddman on Friday 8th March 16:38
OutInTheShed said:
A while since we went through this and things may have moved on, but we found charities like Age UK to be good sources of advice.
A lot of solicitors want to charge a lot to do very little.
Also beware of High St banks wanting to offer 'services' which come with a high price tag.
Good shout - Age UK are very goodA lot of solicitors want to charge a lot to do very little.
Also beware of High St banks wanting to offer 'services' which come with a high price tag.
TBF presenting a case to the Court of Protection (rather than setting up and LPA) is something most of us would struggle with and a solicitor is usually instructed. Solicitors who are members of the the Society of Trusts and Estates Practioners have additional interest and training in this area.
alscar said:
Bobberoo said:
Before he was diagnosed with dementia my father had it added to his notes that he was non resuscitate, I don't want to be making those decisions, I will leave his health care decisions to the professionals.
DNR is one thing but there could also be other decisions that might also need taking. I’m thinking of a fall , whether an infection that needs drugs or not and more importantly when to necessarily stop taking those drugs etc.
Professionals will be giving the advice but they may require a “sign off” from you.
I’ve had to go through this with my Aunt and my wife has with her Mum.
Once again I thank you all for your comments and help.
I was really hoping to avoid appointing a solicitor, purely as my father has very little money, and as harsh as it sounds I don't have the kind of relationship with him that would see me paying for it all.
I've filled all the forms in, I just need to think about what direction I go now.
I was really hoping to avoid appointing a solicitor, purely as my father has very little money, and as harsh as it sounds I don't have the kind of relationship with him that would see me paying for it all.
I've filled all the forms in, I just need to think about what direction I go now.
I had this problem with my late father.
In our case my parents were able to gift me their property, as long as they both lived a further 7 years. I talked to them about granting a LPA and both told me that they would 'when the time was right'....
After mum died dad decided to live on alone, I enquired again regarding an LPA and received the same answer. After a further two or three years I started to get phone calls from concerned nieghbours and friends...'are you aware that your father is the chippies best customer?'
And 'Your father is putting his bins out on the wrong day', were just two comments received.
I was getting near to retirement myself, dropping to working three nights a week, so I had the time to drive to check up on him and take him to the pub for lunch, he engineered a delightful trick of sending me to the bar for a bottle of wine which he would slot down before his meal arrived whilst I nursed a single glass as I was driving, then sending me back for a second bottle when our meal arrived....I later learned that he had pulled the same trick with several other family members/friends!
Eventually he told us that he was moving in with my wife and I, we were not given an option, as his GP was by now involved and dad had developed leg ulcers that needed regular attention.
My wife was working as a mobile care worker and soon discovered that actually living with a patient with vascular dementia was very different from just calling into a list of patients, doing 'personal care', a bit of tidying up and plcing a 'ready meal' in front of them!
She gave her job up and applied for 'Carer's Allowance' and we managed to get the higher rate of Attendance Allowance for dad.so we were not very much worse of financially.
Dad had several falls, these resulted in skin tears and visits to hospital, but still the 'time was not right' for an LPA.
Eventually, after one fall when I was not at home the ambulance crew asked him how he had come to fall, he told them that my wife had hit him with a bottle!
This resulted in the police becoming involved and the DHSS obtained a 'Place of Safety'order and dad was placed into a care home.
We were too exhausted to fight this and the treasurer's dept of the LA contacted me to discuss payment. I explained that dad had no LPA in place and the fellow from the LA agreed that dad was too far gone to know what he was agreeing to so I was forced down the Deputy route.
I was able to complete all the paperwork myself, except for the medical report. Here I did get a little bit lucky, the GP that attended the care home was interested in dementia patients and readily agreed to complete the nessessary assessment at no cost to myself.
I forget now the cost of the court fees, but £750 seems to ring bells.
With the gifting of his home, I had no issues in selling on his home, and due to the timescale the LA were unable to claim it's value from ourselves towards care home costs.
The hardest part for my wife and I was to watch, helpless, as a parent that we loved and respected became a shambling ruin of a man.
Dad lived to 93, his wife died at 86. There were just 8 of us at his funeral, he had outlived his generation.
OP, obtaining a Deputyship is not difficult, the family division of the High Court in London will help you, there is no need to employ a solicitor to fill in forms on your behalf, and the LA will wait until you have obtained this before pressing you for money.
Please accept my sympathy for the position that you find yourself in, there is light at the end of the tunnel....even though just at the moment you may well feel that it is some b
d with a torch.
In our case my parents were able to gift me their property, as long as they both lived a further 7 years. I talked to them about granting a LPA and both told me that they would 'when the time was right'....
After mum died dad decided to live on alone, I enquired again regarding an LPA and received the same answer. After a further two or three years I started to get phone calls from concerned nieghbours and friends...'are you aware that your father is the chippies best customer?'
And 'Your father is putting his bins out on the wrong day', were just two comments received.
I was getting near to retirement myself, dropping to working three nights a week, so I had the time to drive to check up on him and take him to the pub for lunch, he engineered a delightful trick of sending me to the bar for a bottle of wine which he would slot down before his meal arrived whilst I nursed a single glass as I was driving, then sending me back for a second bottle when our meal arrived....I later learned that he had pulled the same trick with several other family members/friends!
Eventually he told us that he was moving in with my wife and I, we were not given an option, as his GP was by now involved and dad had developed leg ulcers that needed regular attention.
My wife was working as a mobile care worker and soon discovered that actually living with a patient with vascular dementia was very different from just calling into a list of patients, doing 'personal care', a bit of tidying up and plcing a 'ready meal' in front of them!
She gave her job up and applied for 'Carer's Allowance' and we managed to get the higher rate of Attendance Allowance for dad.so we were not very much worse of financially.
Dad had several falls, these resulted in skin tears and visits to hospital, but still the 'time was not right' for an LPA.
Eventually, after one fall when I was not at home the ambulance crew asked him how he had come to fall, he told them that my wife had hit him with a bottle!
This resulted in the police becoming involved and the DHSS obtained a 'Place of Safety'order and dad was placed into a care home.
We were too exhausted to fight this and the treasurer's dept of the LA contacted me to discuss payment. I explained that dad had no LPA in place and the fellow from the LA agreed that dad was too far gone to know what he was agreeing to so I was forced down the Deputy route.
I was able to complete all the paperwork myself, except for the medical report. Here I did get a little bit lucky, the GP that attended the care home was interested in dementia patients and readily agreed to complete the nessessary assessment at no cost to myself.
I forget now the cost of the court fees, but £750 seems to ring bells.
With the gifting of his home, I had no issues in selling on his home, and due to the timescale the LA were unable to claim it's value from ourselves towards care home costs.
The hardest part for my wife and I was to watch, helpless, as a parent that we loved and respected became a shambling ruin of a man.
Dad lived to 93, his wife died at 86. There were just 8 of us at his funeral, he had outlived his generation.
OP, obtaining a Deputyship is not difficult, the family division of the High Court in London will help you, there is no need to employ a solicitor to fill in forms on your behalf, and the LA will wait until you have obtained this before pressing you for money.
Please accept my sympathy for the position that you find yourself in, there is light at the end of the tunnel....even though just at the moment you may well feel that it is some b
d with a torch.ferret50 said:
Here I did get a little bit lucky, the GP that attended the care home was interested in dementia patients and readily agreed to complete the nessessary assessment at no cost to myself.
That's very unusual. Most GPs wouldn't touch mental capacity work with a barge pole. This may not apply to you or the OP but a doctor writing a report has to be prepared to defend their opinion in court. A GP would get torn to shreds by a half decent brief. I wouldn't see anyone to write a report for the Court of Protection unless the request came from a solicitor.Thanks for your posts all.
I understand that the subject is both painful and upsetting for some.
Ferret50, I thank you for your post, it has reassured me a little, I may ask my wife to proof read the forms and then submit them.
Oddman, I take it you're a GP?
There is apparently a specialist GP who visits the care home on Tuesday's, but alternatively there is also a senior nurse there who may fill the assessment form in for me, it is after all a nursing home where he's currently residing.
I understand that the subject is both painful and upsetting for some.
Ferret50, I thank you for your post, it has reassured me a little, I may ask my wife to proof read the forms and then submit them.
Oddman, I take it you're a GP?
There is apparently a specialist GP who visits the care home on Tuesday's, but alternatively there is also a senior nurse there who may fill the assessment form in for me, it is after all a nursing home where he's currently residing.
oddman said:
ferret50 said:
Here I did get a little bit lucky, the GP that attended the care home was interested in dementia patients and readily agreed to complete the nessessary assessment at no cost to myself.
That's very unusual. Most GPs wouldn't touch mental capacity work with a barge pole. This may not apply to you or the OP but a doctor writing a report has to be prepared to defend their opinion in court. A GP would get torn to shreds by a half decent brief. I wouldn't see anyone to write a report for the Court of Protection unless the request came from a solicitor.I was just grateful, as a newly retired person, pennies were a little tight, so one less bill was very helpful.
Also, there was never any question from the court regarding questioning the 'need' for a Deputy to be appointed, the GP's report accepted by them as all the proof needed.
In effect, I was asking for approval to run my late father's affairs, there was nobody else to take this on and the court accepted this.
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