Help with theft
Discussion
My BMW X3 was stolen off my path using what the police have described as relay theft they investigated and said to leave it with insurance to sort now . Both keys where at home with me at the time of the theft. I reported it to the insurance and sent them my keys a few days later when they asked for them. They sent the keys to be read by BMW and said its showing that one of the keys was used to start the car when it was taken but the next day after the theft that same key was used again to start the car. I dont understand how its possible when I had both sets of keys. Its all on cctv but insurance wont pay out because the car was used the next day. its been weeks and police haven't had one sighting of my car and dont know why insurance are being funny. Does anyone know anything about relay theft if the signals can be stored and used later on to restart the car or once they have access inside the car is there anything that can be done to restart the car. I need to find as much information I can to send to the insurance complaints department to prove there is ways in which this can be done before moving on to the financial ombudsman. I have spoken to BMW but they dont seem interested in helping, not sure if this is in case they know there is faults in their systems or they dont want to omit there is products on the black market that can interfere so they wont be held accountable. My car was both keyless start and keyless entry. Any help will be really apricated as I am at a loss at the moment thanks
This is an old post so may not be relevant:
https://x3.xbimmers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74...
But I'm pretty certain that BMW keys can be "cloned" and generally if the dealer does it, they will assign a new id to the new key, but it's possible to have 2 keys with the same id, the car wouldn't know any different it just checks the id number.
Note: The id would be used to set seat/mirror settings for each driver, and as far as I know, there is a max number of id's that can be used (10?)
Happy to be corrected on any of the above.
https://x3.xbimmers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74...
But I'm pretty certain that BMW keys can be "cloned" and generally if the dealer does it, they will assign a new id to the new key, but it's possible to have 2 keys with the same id, the car wouldn't know any different it just checks the id number.
Note: The id would be used to set seat/mirror settings for each driver, and as far as I know, there is a max number of id's that can be used (10?)
Happy to be corrected on any of the above.
When I worked in an insurer, it was common practice for keys to be analysed. They hold a lot of details, especially BMW.
It sounds like the key's range was extended by the device - therefore the key correctly records that the engine was started using it.
However, the fact it was then seemingly moved again the next day is a puzzle - The only things I can think of is that they came back again without you noticing to relay it (can you check your cctv to that extent?) or the time/date was wrong but if the first start up was correct I doubt this is the case. I wonder if the time zone recorded on the key is UK, if for instance it was started close to midnight that might account for two dates. I would ask to see this key data but I don't think they'd be obliged to share it at this time.
The information on your key has likely led your insurer to suspect the CCTV was theatre and that you have given the key in advance to the thief.
How old is this car? My 2020 BMW has in app tracking on my phone...
It sounds like the key's range was extended by the device - therefore the key correctly records that the engine was started using it.
However, the fact it was then seemingly moved again the next day is a puzzle - The only things I can think of is that they came back again without you noticing to relay it (can you check your cctv to that extent?) or the time/date was wrong but if the first start up was correct I doubt this is the case. I wonder if the time zone recorded on the key is UK, if for instance it was started close to midnight that might account for two dates. I would ask to see this key data but I don't think they'd be obliged to share it at this time.
The information on your key has likely led your insurer to suspect the CCTV was theatre and that you have given the key in advance to the thief.
How old is this car? My 2020 BMW has in app tracking on my phone...
It was a 22 plate. The last update on the app was half an hour after it was taken then nothing since. The only time my keys have been out my possession was 2 days prior when it went into BMW for a service I left it with them for a few hours and they changed the battery in my fob. The night before the service there was a car driving up and down slowly past my house and stopped outside my car for a minute. Not saying there is any link just strange. I obviously didn’t know about the house being watched until after the theft when I started looking back on cctv.
I have nothing to add re the technical side of the key situation.
You would hope though that it isn't down to you to prove any innocence.
Its an appalling situation if they have seemed to have shift the onus onto you to explain it.
I have utterly no clue how theft tech works, and if my car was stolen id expect them to pay me out, simple.
Wish you all the best sorting it out.
You would hope though that it isn't down to you to prove any innocence.
Its an appalling situation if they have seemed to have shift the onus onto you to explain it.
I have utterly no clue how theft tech works, and if my car was stolen id expect them to pay me out, simple.
Wish you all the best sorting it out.
tomsugden said:
Is it possible a new key was cloned while it was with BMW? An inside job, make the key, then they know where to collect the car from.
Certainly a heck of a coincidence in timing of the service and key fob battery replacement. OP just keep at it, chasing and yes the ombudsman, Facebook, Daily Mail, local MP etc. etc.My car was booked in weeks in advance for service. The day before it went in my house/car was being watched. The day of service they changed battery I never asked them to ( they told insurance it was standard procedure) 2 days later my car was stolen. It is a coincidence but can a key be cloned they talk about it needs ordering from Germany or something. I feel like am going round in circles I was hoping someone on this platform with thousands of people might be able to shed some info 🙏.
If I read this right, the insurance are saying that they can tell from the keys you returned, that one of them was used to start the car the day AFTER it was stolen?
How the heck can a key in your house, presumably miles from the car 'know' that?
Sounds like utter BS from the insurance
How the heck can a key in your house, presumably miles from the car 'know' that?
Sounds like utter BS from the insurance
There are other cases like this it seems. This case is from 2018:
https://www.6post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1530...
https://www.6post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1530...
When the insurance got the keys they then sent them off to another BMW garage who read the keys and on the key data it states the car was started at the time of theft and then 24h later? Both keys were in my house at both the times. This is why I need advice on relay signal storing, key cloning some one said something about OBD PORT they can make a key from that. Unless I find information to send back to the insurance am stuck. They won’t look into how they steal cars they just look for any get out clause.
Assuming your Insurance policy was " standard " and had no special conditions regarding the storage of keys or similar then you should be constructing a simple email to whomever your Insurer is.
The onus should be on them to explain why there is no coverage as opposed to you trying to tell them it is covered.
How the car was stolen will certainly form part of their investigations though as you would expect.
At the end of the day as far as you are concerned the car was Insured and therefore you want it paid out -the fact it was used the day after is neither here nor there.
I am of course assuming you have given them the Police crime reference ?
I wouldn't be panicking just yet -it is still early days.
The onus should be on them to explain why there is no coverage as opposed to you trying to tell them it is covered.
How the car was stolen will certainly form part of their investigations though as you would expect.
At the end of the day as far as you are concerned the car was Insured and therefore you want it paid out -the fact it was used the day after is neither here nor there.
I am of course assuming you have given them the Police crime reference ?
I wouldn't be panicking just yet -it is still early days.
I can offer no experience or industry knowledge but if it were me and the insurance company refused to budge, I would be demanding my keys back and hounding BMW for the last known location.
https://www.bmw.ca/en/topics/owners/my_connecteddr...
https://www.bmw.ca/en/topics/owners/my_connecteddr...
BMW-Stolen vehicle recovery said:
If your BMW is ever stolen, after filing a police report, call the BMW Assist Response Centre to remotely activate your BMW Assist system to locate your vehicle and help the police recover it. This service may even reduce your insurance premium.
Sorry I don't have anything particularly useful to add but I thought all 'comfort-access' BMWs post 2017 had motion sensing keys so were not susceptible to the relay attack?
I had the keys on my 2017 X5 changed to the motion sensing ones and they certainly stopped relaying after being stationary for about 60 seconds.
I had the keys on my 2017 X5 changed to the motion sensing ones and they certainly stopped relaying after being stationary for about 60 seconds.
Edited by Uncle Meat on Friday 15th March 14:58
After reading the link to the other similar case, it's sounds like another Post Office / Fujitsu scam, "the computer can't lie" scenario. Sadly if the ombudsman doesn't help here I fear this may end up in court. It least you have plenty of evidence, CCTV etc, and importantly no motive.
kksm said:
The day of service they changed battery I never asked them to ( they told insurance it was standard procedure)
I think this is true as mine has had this done when in for a regular service and I only noticed as it appeared on the invoice.Can’t help with the keys though - my understanding was they used rolling codes so they would need to be in range of the key to use it to start the car (if they cloned the key the data wouldn’t be on your key). I’d keep chasing insurers and escalating up the chain. Good luck!
Chris
Edited by ScoobyChris on Friday 15th March 15:12
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