Overloaded school coaches
Discussion
We live in quite a rural area and the nearest secondary school is getting on for 10 miles away. Due to the way things have worked out over the years, this secondary school is in a very small town ,and most of the kids in it's catchment area actually come from much bigger (but school less) towns nearby. So the vast majority of the pupils are bussed in by a private coach company. The local authority organises and pays for this Probably about 10 busses morning and afternoon, and I expect the costs are eye watering (might even work out cheaper to build a new school in a more central location in the medium term). I have some sympathy towards the public expense here, and it's not unusual in our county, as much of it is similarly rural and there are many other schools with huge numbers travelling by bus.
Anyway, two of the busses serve the town where we live, so about 100 kids I guess. Back in September at the start of the school year it became apparent that the school bus that my kids were allocated to was overloaded - more passengers than seats (they are all allocated to a specific bus number and issued with a bus pass by the LA, with their name, grainy photo and bus number on it). My understanding is that these school 'busses' are technically coaches rather than busses, and as such their capacity is based firmly on the number of seats - no standing passengers allowed? Certainly the drivers do not allow the kids to be stood up, and if any of them do get up during the journey the driver stops and waits until they sit down again. So the kids are having to pile on and share seats - sit 3 kids to 2 seats etc. The bus drivers turn a blind eye to this is seems, they only care that the kids aren't standing up.
I've complained to the school about it, suggesting that it was down to kids getting on the wrong bus - my kids know many of the others, and which of the two busses they should be on, but a lot ignore it and just want to travel with their friends. But the school's response confirmed that they were aware that the problem is that the busses aren't big enough for the permits issued, so even when kids were on the right bus it was still overloaded. But ultimately said that it's not their problem - school busses are a matter between the LA and the contracted coach company. Fair enough, but the school are the ones forcing kids onto overloaded busses to get them away without hassle at the end of the school day, so they and appear to just be shrugging it off. I'm not entirely sure who allocates numbers to specific busses, but it's got to be between the LA and the bus company.
Next I emailed the school transport department at the LA about the overloading situation. They didn't even grace me with a reply. So then I kicked off on the local facebook page and raised it with our ward councillor. Still never got an official reply, but I think some changes were made as an extra bus was put on to split the route and share the kids out.
But still there are occasional issues with the busses being overloaded. I think it's probably now down to kids still travelling on the wrong bus. The school have tried to help out a bit with this, and on a couple of occasions the teachers have done a spot check of bus passes on the afternoon busses. But the kids know this is only very sporadic, and then they just claim they've forgotten their bus pass anyway, leading to more confusion and ambiguity about who's supposed to be on which bus.
This simple and obvious solution (to me at least), is that the drivers should be checking bus passes as the kids board every morning (and afternoon if necessary). If the kids know that their passes will be checked every journey then they won't get away with 'forgetting' them, they won't even bother trying to travel on the wrong busses and the driver could be confident that his bus isn't over loaded. It wouldn't add more than a few seconds to do it as the kids will soon learn that they need to have their pass out ready as they board, so that's not an excuse not to. The only thing I can think of is that the bus drivers are too bloody lazy to bother doing it. I've pointed this out to the school already, but not their problem/responsibility is their reply.
So now I'm thinking of a complaint addressed to all 3 as they seem to keep passing the buck between each other, threatening to report to Ofsted, VOSA and the police. Maybe none of them will be interested in getting involved, but I hope the threat of it might make someone sit up and take notice.
But the crucial issue is whether it's legal for a coach to be taking more passengers than seats accommodate? If that's not a legal limit and standing room is allowable then I guess no one is doing anything wrong.
Anyway, two of the busses serve the town where we live, so about 100 kids I guess. Back in September at the start of the school year it became apparent that the school bus that my kids were allocated to was overloaded - more passengers than seats (they are all allocated to a specific bus number and issued with a bus pass by the LA, with their name, grainy photo and bus number on it). My understanding is that these school 'busses' are technically coaches rather than busses, and as such their capacity is based firmly on the number of seats - no standing passengers allowed? Certainly the drivers do not allow the kids to be stood up, and if any of them do get up during the journey the driver stops and waits until they sit down again. So the kids are having to pile on and share seats - sit 3 kids to 2 seats etc. The bus drivers turn a blind eye to this is seems, they only care that the kids aren't standing up.
I've complained to the school about it, suggesting that it was down to kids getting on the wrong bus - my kids know many of the others, and which of the two busses they should be on, but a lot ignore it and just want to travel with their friends. But the school's response confirmed that they were aware that the problem is that the busses aren't big enough for the permits issued, so even when kids were on the right bus it was still overloaded. But ultimately said that it's not their problem - school busses are a matter between the LA and the contracted coach company. Fair enough, but the school are the ones forcing kids onto overloaded busses to get them away without hassle at the end of the school day, so they and appear to just be shrugging it off. I'm not entirely sure who allocates numbers to specific busses, but it's got to be between the LA and the bus company.
Next I emailed the school transport department at the LA about the overloading situation. They didn't even grace me with a reply. So then I kicked off on the local facebook page and raised it with our ward councillor. Still never got an official reply, but I think some changes were made as an extra bus was put on to split the route and share the kids out.
But still there are occasional issues with the busses being overloaded. I think it's probably now down to kids still travelling on the wrong bus. The school have tried to help out a bit with this, and on a couple of occasions the teachers have done a spot check of bus passes on the afternoon busses. But the kids know this is only very sporadic, and then they just claim they've forgotten their bus pass anyway, leading to more confusion and ambiguity about who's supposed to be on which bus.
This simple and obvious solution (to me at least), is that the drivers should be checking bus passes as the kids board every morning (and afternoon if necessary). If the kids know that their passes will be checked every journey then they won't get away with 'forgetting' them, they won't even bother trying to travel on the wrong busses and the driver could be confident that his bus isn't over loaded. It wouldn't add more than a few seconds to do it as the kids will soon learn that they need to have their pass out ready as they board, so that's not an excuse not to. The only thing I can think of is that the bus drivers are too bloody lazy to bother doing it. I've pointed this out to the school already, but not their problem/responsibility is their reply.
So now I'm thinking of a complaint addressed to all 3 as they seem to keep passing the buck between each other, threatening to report to Ofsted, VOSA and the police. Maybe none of them will be interested in getting involved, but I hope the threat of it might make someone sit up and take notice.
But the crucial issue is whether it's legal for a coach to be taking more passengers than seats accommodate? If that's not a legal limit and standing room is allowable then I guess no one is doing anything wrong.
Some coaches can legally take children as 3 on 2 (adult) seats. The capacity is often up to 70 - that's a lot of children being carried legally.
I would expect the school to be far more pro-active to ensure that the right kids are on the right coach - it's probably not the driver's concern as long as there's no standing. It's nothing to do with the police.
Ask to speak to the school's Head.
I would expect the school to be far more pro-active to ensure that the right kids are on the right coach - it's probably not the driver's concern as long as there's no standing. It's nothing to do with the police.
Ask to speak to the school's Head.
I spent several years working as a bus driver. School bus runs were a nightmare, three kids to double seats, kids running up and down the aisles, young girls sat on the upper deck over the drivers periscope with no knickers on and kicking the front panel to attract attention.....
Not too bad whilst going to school, but the going home was the worst.
Then you got the kids with LA issued passes at lunch time wanting travel into the city centre, we used to ask 'em if they were on their way home, 'No, we are going to Macdonalds for lunch'
'Turn your pass over and read me condition two,'
Condition two stated one return journey per school day.....
We even caught the little buggers trying to use their passes on a Saturday and on school holidays,so whilst the bus operators are not blameless regarding possible overloading, the kids themselves are also to blame for fiddling the system.
But of course, this will not apply to the OP's kids....
Not too bad whilst going to school, but the going home was the worst.
Then you got the kids with LA issued passes at lunch time wanting travel into the city centre, we used to ask 'em if they were on their way home, 'No, we are going to Macdonalds for lunch'
'Turn your pass over and read me condition two,'
Condition two stated one return journey per school day.....
We even caught the little buggers trying to use their passes on a Saturday and on school holidays,so whilst the bus operators are not blameless regarding possible overloading, the kids themselves are also to blame for fiddling the system.
But of course, this will not apply to the OP's kids....
I'm curious, How does the 3 kids per 2 seats work?
As in how can 3 kids legally be allowed to be seated in a 2 seater? What about seat belts? I assumed they are a legal requirement unless it's a 'city bus' which has a lower speed limit and allows standing passengers.
I'm actually a bus driver but not based in the UK.
As in how can 3 kids legally be allowed to be seated in a 2 seater? What about seat belts? I assumed they are a legal requirement unless it's a 'city bus' which has a lower speed limit and allows standing passengers.
I'm actually a bus driver but not based in the UK.
E36Ross said:
I'm curious, How does the 3 kids per 2 seats work?
As in how can 3 kids legally be allowed to be seated in a 2 seater? What about seat belts? I assumed they are a legal requirement unless it's a 'city bus' which has a lower speed limit and allows standing passengers.
I'm actually a bus driver but not based in the UK.
The coaches have 3 seat belts per double seat.As in how can 3 kids legally be allowed to be seated in a 2 seater? What about seat belts? I assumed they are a legal requirement unless it's a 'city bus' which has a lower speed limit and allows standing passengers.
I'm actually a bus driver but not based in the UK.
rambo19 said:
Bus'es or coach'es ?
A bus can have standing passengers, coaches cannot.
A bus can have standing passengers, coaches cannot.
mjb1 said:
My understanding is that these school 'busses' are technically coaches rather than busses, and as such their capacity is based firmly on the number of seats - no standing passengers allowed
Well done for taking this matter on, and getting the extra bus assigned.
If younger children are getting on the wrong bus, I would suspect it’s the parents directing them to do it, possibly because they don’t like the earlier/later time of their allocation.
If the older kids in the last two years of schoool , then I would guess the problem is with the last bus, as kids that age are typically late.
If younger children are getting on the wrong bus, I would suspect it’s the parents directing them to do it, possibly because they don’t like the earlier/later time of their allocation.
If the older kids in the last two years of schoool , then I would guess the problem is with the last bus, as kids that age are typically late.
aproctor1 said:
OP, was it you who raised a similar post a few months ago?
Do you own a taxi company?
If not, long thread in here about the same issue, conclusion was, non-issue.
It appears not to be the OP who raised the similar thread.Do you own a taxi company?
If not, long thread in here about the same issue, conclusion was, non-issue.
Original thread is here
C n C said:
aproctor1 said:
OP, was it you who raised a similar post a few months ago?
Do you own a taxi company?
If not, long thread in here about the same issue, conclusion was, non-issue.
It appears not to be the OP who raised the similar thread.Do you own a taxi company?
If not, long thread in here about the same issue, conclusion was, non-issue.
Original thread is here
I wonder if the OP has a second account and runs a taxi service.
aproctor1 said:
Thanks, couldn't find the thread.
I wonder if the OP has a second account and runs a taxi service.
I don't think it's the same poster - in that other post, the guy got to the point pretty quicklyI wonder if the OP has a second account and runs a taxi service.
(Harsh but fair!)
My view was primary aged kids could sit 3 to 2, but my memory of school bus journeys were that they were pretty feral.
Helpful really, as it gave me a good incentive to have my own car as an adult.
Assuming coaches are the same as buses, the capacity will be lettered near the door. Most dedicated school buses and coaches tend to have 3+2 or 3+3 seats rather than 2+2 so may not be over capacity.
If they are running above their plated capacity, the local traffic commissioner will be very interested and it won't be brushed under the carpet. They are quite likely to have their licence taken away or vehicle number reduced if they are doing, so I'd have thought it's quite unlikely.
If they are running above their plated capacity, the local traffic commissioner will be very interested and it won't be brushed under the carpet. They are quite likely to have their licence taken away or vehicle number reduced if they are doing, so I'd have thought it's quite unlikely.
DavePanda said:
All hinges on the type of vehicle and it's legally allowed capacity
As already said, standard coaches can be "upseated" to carry 70 children, double deckers can be upseated to carry 100 or more seated.
I think most of us feel that the OP is making a mountain out of a molehill - not helped by an apparent lack of understanding of the laws surrounding the passage of school children.As already said, standard coaches can be "upseated" to carry 70 children, double deckers can be upseated to carry 100 or more seated.
ferret50 said:
Then you got the kids with LA issued passes at lunch time wanting travel into the city centre, we used to ask 'em if they were on their way home, 'No, we are going to Macdonalds for lunch'
'Turn your pass over and read me condition two,'
Condition two stated one return journey per school day.....
We even caught the little buggers trying to use their passes on a Saturday and on school holidays,so whilst the bus operators are not blameless regarding possible overloading, the kids themselves are also to blame for fiddling the system.
But of course, this will not apply to the OP's kids....
Don't know where you are, and don't know where OP is. But... until a couple of years ago, the bus passes in Kent were allowed to be used for free on weekends. Even now, holding a valid school travel pass means free travel on any public bus journey in Kent between 6am and 7pm weekdays, including school holidays except the month of August. Outside of that (eg weekends, later evenings), it's just £1 for any journey within the county with most operators, which could potentially be some quite long runs.'Turn your pass over and read me condition two,'
Condition two stated one return journey per school day.....
We even caught the little buggers trying to use their passes on a Saturday and on school holidays,so whilst the bus operators are not blameless regarding possible overloading, the kids themselves are also to blame for fiddling the system.
But of course, this will not apply to the OP's kids....
So certainly in Kent, your description of them as 'little buggers...fiddling the system' would not be correct, and may well not be for OP's kids either.
mikey_b said:
Don't know where you are, and don't know where OP is. But... until a couple of years ago, the bus passes in Kent were allowed to be used for free on weekends. Even now, holding a valid school travel pass means free travel on any public bus journey in Kent between 6am and 7pm weekdays, including school holidays except the month of August. Outside of that (eg weekends, later evenings), it's just £1 for any journey within the county with most operators, which could potentially be some quite long runs.
So certainly in Kent, your description of them as 'little buggers...fiddling the system' would not be correct, and may well not be for OP's kids either.
In Scotland, any person aged 5 to 21 gets a free travel card that they can use throughout Scotland - Dumfries to Lerwick. Downside is, it allows the yobs to freely travel to other districts and cause mayhem. But the SNP think it's a vote catcher.So certainly in Kent, your description of them as 'little buggers...fiddling the system' would not be correct, and may well not be for OP's kids either.
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