Discussion
I am seriously considering an Elise S2 111S and this understeer issue has got me a bit worried, as handling is the most important to me (next to everyday comfort, and I can't live with an S1 every day I'm afraid).
I've spent the last half hour reading through various threads about Elise S2s understeering... so - what is the consensus on this? Is it people's driving, or does the S2 just understeer everywhere? Obviously any driver can induce any handling trait they wish into a car by driving it differently (a friend of mine once had all sorts of handling issues with his 200SX, and when I went out with him in the car it turned out he just didn't know how to drive!) - so the ultimate answer is to drive it myself and see what it does for me - but seeing as opportunities to push a car safely on the road are few and far between I thought I'd see what I could learn from this forum! I remember Jeremy Clarkson announcing he couldn't make an S2 oversteer on Top Gear, and then Gavan Kershaw taking the wheel and drifting it about all over the place!
I've had a drive in a couple of S2s, but sadly all the bends were blind and I wasn't able to get much speed up at all.
I don't mind having to trail brake a little, but once that turn in is over and done with, I like to be able to balance between slight oversteer, neutrality and slight understeer by subtley using my right foot to alter the weight transfer - this is possible in my 330ci, and was possible in the Caterham I owned beforehand (and most other cars I've driven: NSX, Noble, Caterhams, MR2 etc etc). I don't think oversteer is the "be all and end all" of driving, but I do like a car to feel alive and not just set itself into understeer all the time.
I've spent the last half hour reading through various threads about Elise S2s understeering... so - what is the consensus on this? Is it people's driving, or does the S2 just understeer everywhere? Obviously any driver can induce any handling trait they wish into a car by driving it differently (a friend of mine once had all sorts of handling issues with his 200SX, and when I went out with him in the car it turned out he just didn't know how to drive!) - so the ultimate answer is to drive it myself and see what it does for me - but seeing as opportunities to push a car safely on the road are few and far between I thought I'd see what I could learn from this forum! I remember Jeremy Clarkson announcing he couldn't make an S2 oversteer on Top Gear, and then Gavan Kershaw taking the wheel and drifting it about all over the place!
I've had a drive in a couple of S2s, but sadly all the bends were blind and I wasn't able to get much speed up at all.
I don't mind having to trail brake a little, but once that turn in is over and done with, I like to be able to balance between slight oversteer, neutrality and slight understeer by subtley using my right foot to alter the weight transfer - this is possible in my 330ci, and was possible in the Caterham I owned beforehand (and most other cars I've driven: NSX, Noble, Caterhams, MR2 etc etc). I don't think oversteer is the "be all and end all" of driving, but I do like a car to feel alive and not just set itself into understeer all the time.
Lotus changed the default set-up on the Elise due to too many people sticking S1's in hedges and the car getting a bad name for itself.
Basically they reviesed the geo and went from 195 fronts down to 175 fronts.
We are talking about 'on the limit' handling here...so if you go too fast into a bend in an S1, turn in, it will generally oversteer, in an S2 it will generally understeer...you can get it to oversteer at will though with a little trail braking and lifting off sharpish.
Its not a big deal - you can get rid of most of it by fitting 185 fronts and revising the geo...or all of it by fitting new wheels with 195 fronts (as I have)
thats it really - for normal road use you wouldnt notice i anyway...due to the cornering limits of an Elise being so high anyway, youd have to be driving like a loon on the road to get to the point where it understeers...or have a poor cornering technique
Basically they reviesed the geo and went from 195 fronts down to 175 fronts.
We are talking about 'on the limit' handling here...so if you go too fast into a bend in an S1, turn in, it will generally oversteer, in an S2 it will generally understeer...you can get it to oversteer at will though with a little trail braking and lifting off sharpish.
Its not a big deal - you can get rid of most of it by fitting 185 fronts and revising the geo...or all of it by fitting new wheels with 195 fronts (as I have)
thats it really - for normal road use you wouldnt notice i anyway...due to the cornering limits of an Elise being so high anyway, youd have to be driving like a loon on the road to get to the point where it understeers...or have a poor cornering technique
s2 elise has a severe lack of turn in on a trailing throttle full stop, in my opinion lotus went soft with the s2, its an elise for the masses.S1+unskilled driver =oversteer=ouch.S2+unskilled driver=understeer=safe. In my opinion lotus lost the plot with the s2, the elise is about light weight and total driver involvment,it now has abs brakes(which are crap) and is a lard arse 900+kgs, may as well be an mr2.......................
I was at Donington yesterday and there were plenty of elises on track, most of them Series 2 .. they should have renamed the place understeer city. Didn't look much fun at all. 
I didn't see one of them with the back end out and we were on the GP loop where it's very wide and safe to try stuff like that ..
I didn't see one of them with the back end out and we were on the GP loop where it's very wide and safe to try stuff like that ..trackcar said:
I was at Donington yesterday and there were plenty of elises on track, most of them Series 2 .. they should have renamed the place understeer city. Didn't look much fun at all.
that might be something to do with the driver...it takes a lot of skill to drift/hang the tail out on a mid engined RWD car !
spannerman said:
s2 elise has a severe lack of turn in on a trailing throttle full stop, in my opinion lotus went soft with the s2, its an elise for the masses.S1+unskilled driver =oversteer=ouch.S2+unskilled driver=understeer=safe. In my opinion lotus lost the plot with the s2, the elise is about light weight and total driver involvment,it now has abs brakes(which are crap) and is a lard arse 900+kgs, may as well be an mr2.......................
You can easily sort this. My S2 has a Horizon Motorsports Geo so it's perfectly neutral now. 185 front tyres means no more understeer.
a 111r may be 900kg but my base S2 is 715kg. Lighter than a S1 111s
The Elise's shorter wheelbase may be a culprit - however for me this is one of its attractive features - I like my cars to be snappy and twitchy.
In my experience (or rather the experiences of my friends who have crashed!), limited slip diffs often cause problems rather than solve them.. before the rear loses traction they give understeer because they resist different rear-wheel rotation speeds - and when the rear loses traction the power doesn't spin away through one wheel so you have a go kart rear end basically!
In my experience (or rather the experiences of my friends who have crashed!), limited slip diffs often cause problems rather than solve them.. before the rear loses traction they give understeer because they resist different rear-wheel rotation speeds - and when the rear loses traction the power doesn't spin away through one wheel so you have a go kart rear end basically!
MJK 24 said:
s2 elise has a severe lack of turn in on a trailing throttle full stop, in my opinion lotus went soft with the s2, its an elise for the masses.S1+unskilled driver =oversteer=ouch.S2+unskilled driver=understeer=safe. In my opinion lotus lost the plot with the s2, the elise is about light weight and total driver involvment,it now has abs brakes(which are crap) and is a lard arse 900+kgs, may as well be an mr2.......................
You can easily sort this. My S2 has a Horizon Motorsports Geo so it's perfectly neutral now. 185 front tyres means no more understeer.
a 111r may be 900kg but my base S2 is 715kg. Lighter than a S1 111s
RobM77 said:
The Elise's shorter wheelbase may be a culprit - however for me this is one of its attractive features - I like my cars to be snappy and twitchy.
In my experience (or rather the experiences of my friends who have crashed!), limited slip diffs often cause problems rather than solve them.. before the rear loses traction they give understeer because they resist different rear-wheel rotation speeds - and when the rear loses traction the power doesn't spin away through one wheel so you have a go kart rear end basically!
no probs - the Elise will meet your requirements.
And completely agree on the 2nd point
...it doesnt need onespannerman said:
spannerman said:
s2 elise has a severe lack of turn in on a trailing throttle full stop, in my opinion lotus went soft with the s2, its an elise for the masses.S1+unskilled driver =oversteer=ouch.S2+unskilled driver=understeer=safe. In my opinion lotus lost the plot with the s2, the elise is about light weight and total driver involvment,it now has abs brakes(which are crap) and is a lard arse 900+kgs, may as well be an mr2.......................
eh? so what have you done to lighten your S2 by 65Kg over a std S2 (780Kg wet)
You can easily sort this. My S2 has a Horizon Motorsports Geo so it's perfectly neutral now. 185 front tyres means no more understeer.
a 111r may be 900kg but my base S2 is 715kg. Lighter than a S1 111s
Hmmm... Not sure about the understeer but I (unintentionally) found myself going sideways down a road yesterday in my S2 111S. Very wet, very greasy, very slidey!
Quite pleased with my application of opposite lock and recovery after the initial cock up. So was the Alfa driver coming the other way.
Will be MUCH more careful in the wet in future. Off for some driver training and some track days. That is not a trick for the road!
Quite pleased with my application of opposite lock and recovery after the initial cock up. So was the Alfa driver coming the other way.
Will be MUCH more careful in the wet in future. Off for some driver training and some track days. That is not a trick for the road!
I have an S1 and I don't think my car CAN understeer... it's neutral right up to the limit when the back starts to wiggle.... I've got larger than standard rear tyres too (225) on wider rims so you'd expect it to maybe be more understeery than most... in any case it's perfect to drive
I have found that my S2 111s oversteers dramatically in the wet or the dry even with the standard setup.
......every I time go round a corner using the handbrake!
That said, the car has provided endless fun. Oversteer when I want, underseer initially in the wet - which is a warning to a berk like me that I am going too fast, without ending up facing the wrong way suddenly. There are always tyre / geo / wheel combinations that will do anything you want the car to do. Isn't that the beauty of an elise in the 1st place?
>> Edited by shangani on Friday 16th September 10:13
>> Edited by shangani on Friday 16th September 10:22
......every I time go round a corner using the handbrake!
That said, the car has provided endless fun. Oversteer when I want, underseer initially in the wet - which is a warning to a berk like me that I am going too fast, without ending up facing the wrong way suddenly. There are always tyre / geo / wheel combinations that will do anything you want the car to do. Isn't that the beauty of an elise in the 1st place?
>> Edited by shangani on Friday 16th September 10:13
>> Edited by shangani on Friday 16th September 10:22
Sorry to drag an old thread up, but I've just been able to start pushing my new S2 111S for the first time (sadly my usual commute is full of blind bends which I obviously give plenty of respect, but I've just been for a good blat through open roads and large empty dual carriageway roundabouts) and I'd like to add my comments to the PH history books on the topic of "S2 understeer".
I found at first that if I tried to drive my Elise like I used to drive the BMW 330 coupe (front engined, RWD), then yes, it understeered. However, I simply adapted my technique and balanced the car differently in corners and hence have absolutely no problem with understeer at all (pretty much as with my old MR2). Driven correctly, the car seems to resist understeer quite well actually! I also found the adjustability of the car to be incredibly good, so you can make it handle however you want throughout the corner. I've driven a lot of cars, and still rate Caterhams as the best handling road cars out there, but the Elise is now firmly up there with the Caterham at the top for me. Hethel have done a great job.
The track reveals all, and admittedly I haven't tracked my car yet. From experience with other cars on road and then track I reckon that extensive track driving might require slightly reworked suspension and tyres; but I am more than happy with the road biased maleable handling that my standard car currently gives. I do intend to just use my car on the road.
A word on tyre pressures - I set mine to the reccomended pressures in the handbook yesterday, as they were a little off (they were higher), and this has altered the handling and steering feel for the better. The steering feel was the first thing I noticed - the weight of the steering has changed and there is more feel (subtle, but noticeable). I didn't really push the car with the old pressures I was running (as they were after taking delivery of the car from the dealer), but with the newer pressures the car seems to have a little more grip and understeer a little less when squatting down on the power out of corners.
Just my thoughts - hope that helps any prospective S2 purchasers in the future!
I found at first that if I tried to drive my Elise like I used to drive the BMW 330 coupe (front engined, RWD), then yes, it understeered. However, I simply adapted my technique and balanced the car differently in corners and hence have absolutely no problem with understeer at all (pretty much as with my old MR2). Driven correctly, the car seems to resist understeer quite well actually! I also found the adjustability of the car to be incredibly good, so you can make it handle however you want throughout the corner. I've driven a lot of cars, and still rate Caterhams as the best handling road cars out there, but the Elise is now firmly up there with the Caterham at the top for me. Hethel have done a great job.
The track reveals all, and admittedly I haven't tracked my car yet. From experience with other cars on road and then track I reckon that extensive track driving might require slightly reworked suspension and tyres; but I am more than happy with the road biased maleable handling that my standard car currently gives. I do intend to just use my car on the road.
A word on tyre pressures - I set mine to the reccomended pressures in the handbook yesterday, as they were a little off (they were higher), and this has altered the handling and steering feel for the better. The steering feel was the first thing I noticed - the weight of the steering has changed and there is more feel (subtle, but noticeable). I didn't really push the car with the old pressures I was running (as they were after taking delivery of the car from the dealer), but with the newer pressures the car seems to have a little more grip and understeer a little less when squatting down on the power out of corners.
Just my thoughts - hope that helps any prospective S2 purchasers in the future!
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