Brother in trouble - what can I do?
Discussion
Another personal thread, I'm afraid, but I really need some advice here.
My brother and his wife are in a lot of debt. I'm not sure how much but I reckon about the 20K mark. After a conversation last night with my sister I was absolutely livid. The head gasket went on his nearly new Citroen and me and my other sister gave them £100 to help towards the costs (and they never even thanked me). I also suggested he write to Citroen as the car has always been serviced at a dealer and head gasket should not have gone after 3 years and low mileage. What does he do? He goes to my parents and gets them to pay for the repairs. What happened to the £100, I do not know. I also found out that my mum is paying his credit card bill and although she has the card locked in her safe, they obviously don't need a card for buying stuff on t'internet. My mum also does not know how much he owes on the card.
The main problem is that his wife refuses to work. The only way they can survive is for him to do 12 hour shifts every day plus overtime. They've just had another kid (against his wishes - my feeling is that she got pregnant again to avoid having to go back to work and she also said she wanted another kid so they would get a council house) and she spends money on stupid things like professional photos of the babies because she has some mad idea that they can do child modelling. She also spends a fortune on stuff for the kids that they simply do not need. She also forced them to move to a town further away from my brother's work because she was bored during the day - they are now paying a lot more rent as a result.
Apparently, they got £500 from the benefits people for something and instead of using it towards their debts they went out and bought a tumble dryer and a dishwasher.
It makes me really angry. I am angry with her for refusing to work and spending all their money on crap and I'm angry with him for not standing up to her and putting his foot down. I'm also angry because last time they came to see me they sat there making nasty sarky remarks about how they couldn't afford the same stuff that I have. I have worked hard for my money and it makes me angry that they seem to think it's been handed to me on a plate.
I really don't know what to do. My other sister has tried to talk to them but they don't want to know. She thinks they should try the bankruptcy route but I am unsure about this. I am also wary of interfering, but I don't want my niece and nephew to grow up in poverty because of their parents stupidity.
What should I do? :(
My brother and his wife are in a lot of debt. I'm not sure how much but I reckon about the 20K mark. After a conversation last night with my sister I was absolutely livid. The head gasket went on his nearly new Citroen and me and my other sister gave them £100 to help towards the costs (and they never even thanked me). I also suggested he write to Citroen as the car has always been serviced at a dealer and head gasket should not have gone after 3 years and low mileage. What does he do? He goes to my parents and gets them to pay for the repairs. What happened to the £100, I do not know. I also found out that my mum is paying his credit card bill and although she has the card locked in her safe, they obviously don't need a card for buying stuff on t'internet. My mum also does not know how much he owes on the card.
The main problem is that his wife refuses to work. The only way they can survive is for him to do 12 hour shifts every day plus overtime. They've just had another kid (against his wishes - my feeling is that she got pregnant again to avoid having to go back to work and she also said she wanted another kid so they would get a council house) and she spends money on stupid things like professional photos of the babies because she has some mad idea that they can do child modelling. She also spends a fortune on stuff for the kids that they simply do not need. She also forced them to move to a town further away from my brother's work because she was bored during the day - they are now paying a lot more rent as a result.
Apparently, they got £500 from the benefits people for something and instead of using it towards their debts they went out and bought a tumble dryer and a dishwasher.
It makes me really angry. I am angry with her for refusing to work and spending all their money on crap and I'm angry with him for not standing up to her and putting his foot down. I'm also angry because last time they came to see me they sat there making nasty sarky remarks about how they couldn't afford the same stuff that I have. I have worked hard for my money and it makes me angry that they seem to think it's been handed to me on a plate.
I really don't know what to do. My other sister has tried to talk to them but they don't want to know. She thinks they should try the bankruptcy route but I am unsure about this. I am also wary of interfering, but I don't want my niece and nephew to grow up in poverty because of their parents stupidity.
What should I do? :(
I'm sorry but I don't know if there is much you can do. £20K is not really that much debt these days, and with a careful strategy and much belt tightening can be sorted, even if it isn't going to be much fun. This is the plus side.
But...from your description of them, they don't seem like the sort of people who will see this through; you can lead a horse to water etc.
They may end up finding the bankruptcy route is the one they take because it is forced upon them.
But...from your description of them, they don't seem like the sort of people who will see this through; you can lead a horse to water etc.
They may end up finding the bankruptcy route is the one they take because it is forced upon them.
I'd probably keep well clear. Don't involve yourself with their debt problems and marital issues (remembering that they're both adults). There's no reason why you should have the worry of their money mismanagement hanging over you, but be there for your brother and nieces/nephews when it all explodes into a nasty mess.
Worst thing you can do is try and bail your brother out with money. They obviously have crap money management skills and giving/loaning them money is just going to make the situation worse. I have seen this happen with my GFs parents and her siblings. It also creates a lot of problems with the other members of the family as it is seen as unfair for one to get extra handouts.
They have to face the music I am afraid. Nothing like a visit from the bailiffs as a shock to the system.
They have to face the music I am afraid. Nothing like a visit from the bailiffs as a shock to the system.
Yup afraid I'm with the leave them too it brigade, by all means be there with tea and sympathy when it all goes tits up, BUT, he is an adult he has self determination and if he wants to 
up he has a right to do so.
Obviuosly you may feel agrieved if your mother decides to start spending all of her savings/ your inheritance funding his daft life style choices so if anything you might want to point that out to your mother.
up he has a right to do so. Obviuosly you may feel agrieved if your mother decides to start spending all of her savings/ your inheritance funding his daft life style choices so if anything you might want to point that out to your mother.
Having re-read your post, I'd also like to agree with Tonker that it would seem the problem here is definitely your brothers wife. I'm guessing it would not have been his idea to spend that £500 on a tumble dryer and dishwasher, and the moving because she was bored part is pretty poor. If you're determined to intervene (which carries a good likelihood of blowing up in your face, as others have pointed out), I would suggest trying to get him to stand up to her.
Thanks for the response, guys.
I don't really want to intervene as I tried to give them some gentle and very very tactful advice before about feeding their kid junk food and got a mouthful of rant from her.
It was just that I felt pretty helpless and didn't really know what(if anything) to do.
It's my mum's money and entirely up to her how she spends it, I just feel that my brother and his wife aren't taking any responsibility for themselves or their actions and IMO, they have 2 kids and need to do this.
>> Edited by silversun on Wednesday 14th September 09:37
I don't really want to intervene as I tried to give them some gentle and very very tactful advice before about feeding their kid junk food and got a mouthful of rant from her.
It was just that I felt pretty helpless and didn't really know what(if anything) to do.
It's my mum's money and entirely up to her how she spends it, I just feel that my brother and his wife aren't taking any responsibility for themselves or their actions and IMO, they have 2 kids and need to do this.
>> Edited by silversun on Wednesday 14th September 09:37
I'd leave well alone. It's your brothers and his wifes life and how they choose to live it is their choice.
Your brother needs to grow some balls and stand up to his wife for a start - try telling her no occassionally and it gets easier the more you practice it. She's only taking advantage of him because he's allowing her to.
If he didn't want another baby, then he should have taken responsibility for that himself and kept it covered or had the snip. The same with the dishwasher, etc. HE could have taken responsiblity, he chose not to. And if they haven't even got the good manners to thank you for your kind contribution, then I'd know which part of my body they can kiss the next time they need a favour!!
I have no sympathy for these poor-me-I'm-so-hard-done-by types who can't be bothered to help themselves or do something to improve their circumstances. The next time they're whining about not having any money, perhaps you could point out the choices THEY (the pair of them) have made.
If you're worried that your mum is being taken advantage of, then maybe you could mention it to her, but at the end of the day, he is her child and father of her grandchildren and she'll not want to see him suffer.
Your brother needs to grow some balls and stand up to his wife for a start - try telling her no occassionally and it gets easier the more you practice it. She's only taking advantage of him because he's allowing her to.
If he didn't want another baby, then he should have taken responsibility for that himself and kept it covered or had the snip. The same with the dishwasher, etc. HE could have taken responsiblity, he chose not to. And if they haven't even got the good manners to thank you for your kind contribution, then I'd know which part of my body they can kiss the next time they need a favour!!
I have no sympathy for these poor-me-I'm-so-hard-done-by types who can't be bothered to help themselves or do something to improve their circumstances. The next time they're whining about not having any money, perhaps you could point out the choices THEY (the pair of them) have made.
If you're worried that your mum is being taken advantage of, then maybe you could mention it to her, but at the end of the day, he is her child and father of her grandchildren and she'll not want to see him suffer.
I would respectfully suggest that unless the debts are drug induced (and he's spent all the cash on crack) any money that came into the household was spent on what was considered important at the time (washer and tumble dryer sounds important to me)
As people point out 20K is nothing if the interest rate is low the repayments achievable and the length of loan realistic.
The problem is that all you can do is give advice about CHANGING their life style.
eg
1) I mean, who NEEDS a 3 year old car, sell it, buy a 10 year old cavalier and payoff £3 - £8 K of debts.
2) Ebay everything in the house that is of no sentimental value and has not been used for a year.
3) Where do they shop ? My sister in law buys the finest range from tesco and I buy the NO frills range from Kwik save. Guess who saves £60 a week on food ?
Take him to the pub and offer your advice, but don't force it down his throat.
Or Take his wife to the pub and find out both sides.
As people point out 20K is nothing if the interest rate is low the repayments achievable and the length of loan realistic.
The problem is that all you can do is give advice about CHANGING their life style.
eg
1) I mean, who NEEDS a 3 year old car, sell it, buy a 10 year old cavalier and payoff £3 - £8 K of debts.
2) Ebay everything in the house that is of no sentimental value and has not been used for a year.
3) Where do they shop ? My sister in law buys the finest range from tesco and I buy the NO frills range from Kwik save. Guess who saves £60 a week on food ?
Take him to the pub and offer your advice, but don't force it down his throat.
Or Take his wife to the pub and find out both sides.
20k in the red and they spend 500 quid on a dishwasher 
try using a dish cloth!
Sounds like a serious "shared bank account" problem to me. I've found that separate bank accounts solve half your problems straight away. He could try losing his rag but he also needs to try some positive reinforcment as well. Say thankyou when she doesn't spend the money, buy her a small treat if she saves a hundred quid for example.
He really needs to say no a bit more.
No moving house for no good reason
No kids that you can't support
Wash your own dishes for a change
etc..
And seconded regarding selling on E-bay what you don't need and moving down in car terms.
try using a dish cloth! Sounds like a serious "shared bank account" problem to me. I've found that separate bank accounts solve half your problems straight away. He could try losing his rag but he also needs to try some positive reinforcment as well. Say thankyou when she doesn't spend the money, buy her a small treat if she saves a hundred quid for example.
He really needs to say no a bit more.
No moving house for no good reason
No kids that you can't support
Wash your own dishes for a change
etc..
And seconded regarding selling on E-bay what you don't need and moving down in car terms.
Offer your help (probably just to your brother). Let this be in the form of advice and help writing letters and telling them what to do and what to say to the various people they are in debt to. Help him make a budget and a plan to pay off the debt. In short help them do the things they can't (not won't) do themselves.
Talk over your concerns with your family but don't tell them not to lend them money - that is their decision not yours. This is how family feuds start.
Talk over your concerns with your family but don't tell them not to lend them money - that is their decision not yours. This is how family feuds start.
Firstly I've been there. We had separate accounts and that was half the problem, she spent and covered it up, I had no idea the debt was that large.
Sometime a joint account works. Both can keeop an eye on it.
All the advice here has been good but they will eventually get a call about the size and repayments on their debt and it may well be the catalyst to change as it was with us.We were lucky though, debt was covered by a very worried/scolded in-law.
As has been said, he needs to grow some large, hairy BALLS and chop up credit cards/call the company to freeze the card/disconnect the computer.
Then he needs to tell his lazy-arsed and ignorant wife what a
she is and to wind her neck right in before he goes ballistic at her. I cannot abide women like that and nearly divorced my wife because of it. All that kept me from walking out there and then was our 4 year old.
Rant over
and breath....
Sometime a joint account works. Both can keeop an eye on it.
All the advice here has been good but they will eventually get a call about the size and repayments on their debt and it may well be the catalyst to change as it was with us.We were lucky though, debt was covered by a very worried/scolded in-law.
As has been said, he needs to grow some large, hairy BALLS and chop up credit cards/call the company to freeze the card/disconnect the computer.
Then he needs to tell his lazy-arsed and ignorant wife what a
she is and to wind her neck right in before he goes ballistic at her. I cannot abide women like that and nearly divorced my wife because of it. All that kept me from walking out there and then was our 4 year old. Rant over
and breath....
They sound like perfect candidates for that BBC program "Bank of Mum & Dad", where they attempt to straighten out the atrocious debt the people highlighted have built up and their care free spending habits that fuel the debt.
Seen a few episodes and it seriously put a rocket up their arses. Made for compelling viewing.
Seen a few episodes and it seriously put a rocket up their arses. Made for compelling viewing.
OK, have been thinking about this after everyone's helpful comments and have decided not to intervene too much. Basically, I will politely suggest to my mother that if she's going to pay his credit card bill then she should make sure he is a) not still spending on it and b) ask for the statement so she can see the true extent of the problem.
For the kids, I will save £10 per month for each of them for when they're 18. It's not much but at least it'll be a bit of money for them to do what they want with and that way they benefit and not the parents.
At the end of the day, they are adults and need to learn to take responsibility for their own lives/mistakes.
For the kids, I will save £10 per month for each of them for when they're 18. It's not much but at least it'll be a bit of money for them to do what they want with and that way they benefit and not the parents.
At the end of the day, they are adults and need to learn to take responsibility for their own lives/mistakes.
silversun said:
For the kids, I will save £10 per month for each of them for when they're 18. It's not much but at least it'll be a bit of money for them to do what they want with and that way they benefit and not the parents.
That is a very good idea - I would however consider whether 18 is old enough to be given the money. I would also suggest that you don't mention your investment plans for the children to anyone in your family. Better that the money is truly a surprise for them later in life than something that they believe is their "right" and that they - or their mother - relies on them getting.
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