Read the road

[DickyC]

Last week, on a normal 30mph road here in Newbury, I slowed down to become the third car waiting at a Zebra Crossing. It was half past two in the afternoon, the weather was dry, visibility was good. At this point, there were no cars facing us. Waiting at the kerb were three adults and a guide dog. The dog was sitting, waiting. A woman wearing dark glasses was holding on to the dog's harness, one of the other adults was holding the dog with a second harness, the third adult was holding the woman with dark glasses by the arm. Ah, ha, I thought, a training session for the dog and its new keeper. The drivers were being patient, which was good to see. Some words were exchanged, the dog stood up and a Corsa coming the other way went straight through without stopping. I could hardly believe my eyes. How on earth could you not see that? Or how, if you saw it, could you think was okay to ignore it all and carry on?

I felt sorry for the dog. "I'm sure they said cars would stop."

[Whataguy]

Around here I avoid Zebra crossings as a pedestrian - I never expect anyone to obey them

Traffic lights are bad enough, people regularly go through well after they are red.

Unless they have a camera on them, many people don't seem to bother with them here. All the enforcement is on camera vans situated on open straight roads sadly.

[Gary29]

Whataguy said:

Around here I avoid Zebra crossings as a pedestrian - I never expect anyone to obey them
.

Me too, I find it much safer to take my chances and cross elsewhere rather than relying on people to actually see you and stop. And I don't need to inconvenience motorists whilst I'm able bodied and spritely enough to cross on my own.

At least the dog got some 'real' world experience. I can't imagine how intimidating it must be trying to get around as a blind pedestrian.

[J4CKO]

I think a lot are distracted by their phones, or too busy thinking of what they are doing, sod everyone else.

I got stuck in a small jam on a rural road the other day, five cars stopped for no apparent reason, assumed must be a cyclists someone couldnt get past due to oncoming traffic but was stationary.

This was puzzling but couldnt see anything, I waited, and the last car moved out when they got chance and got past this obstacle when there was no oncoming traffic.

Anyway, it turns out, five cars had stopped and navigated round a builders bucket that had obviously fell off a builders flat bed truck or something.

They had waited behind a sandy plastic bucket for a gap in the oncoming traffic, no thought to moving said bucket, someone else will do that.

And they did, me, proud owner of a new bucket, clocked it, decided to move it, put hazards on, jumped out, grabbed, it, banged it in the passenger footwell and traffic could flow again.

Can people not think beyond their own little bubble ? I find it worrying how dumb and lacking in thought a lot of the public are.

[AmyRichardson]

Whataguy said:

Around here I avoid Zebra crossings as a pedestrian - I never expect anyone to obey them

Traffic lights are bad enough, people regularly go through well after they are red.

Unless they have a camera on them, many people don't seem to bother with them here. All the enforcement is on camera vans situated on open straight roads sadly.

My experience differs. Some crossings are sited in positions that don't afford the motorist mich time to see, and respond, to them (e.g. roundabout exits) but where that isn't an issue motorists invariably give way properly.

Sure, there are scenarios where the motorist doesn't perceive the ongoing attempt (we've presumably all had that situation where a pedestrian appears to be about to cross, but isn't - well that in reverse) but it's an outlier.

[Alex@POD]

J4CKO said:

Can people not think beyond their own little bubble ? I find it worrying how dumb and lacking in thought a lot of the public are.

I had the same situation from a roadworks barrier that had blown over after a storm (well, I'm pretty sure it blew over during the storm ).

At least 5 cars took turns passing it before I got out and pushed it to the side of the road.

[samoht]

DickyC said:

Last week, on a normal 30mph road here in Newbury, I slowed down to become the third car waiting at a Zebra Crossing. It was half past two in the afternoon, the weather was dry, visibility was good. At this point, there were no cars facing us. Waiting at the kerb were three adults and a guide dog. The dog was sitting, waiting. A woman wearing dark glasses was holding on to the dog's harness, one of the other adults was holding the dog with a second harness, the third adult was holding the woman with dark glasses by the arm. Ah, ha, I thought, a training session for the dog and its new keeper. The drivers were being patient, which was good to see. Some words were exchanged, the dog stood up and a Corsa coming the other way went straight through without stopping. I could hardly believe my eyes. How on earth could you not see that? Or how, if you saw it, could you think was okay to ignore it all and carry on?

So there were no pedestrians on the pedestrian crossing, there were no pedestrians moving towards the pedestrian crossing, a driver continued perfectly legally, and you "could hardly believe your eyes".

I agree that, if I perceived the situation as you have described it, then I'd stop, and it would be inconsiderate not to.

To me however, the fact you were that shocked by the other driver continuing suggests a lack of appreciation of how different road users can perceive the same situation quite differently, such that you couldn't understand how they then behaved differently.

Apart from anything else, the same scene seen from a 180 degree opposite direction can look quite different due to the effect of sunlight and the grouping of the people / any road furniture, such that what was clearly obvious from one angle could be much harder to spot from the opposite direction.

In this case it was of no consequence, but the assumption that others see the situation as you do can lead to issues.

[Ron240]

samoht said:

So there were no pedestrians on the pedestrian crossing, there were no pedestrians moving towards the pedestrian crossing, a driver continued perfectly legally, and you "could hardly believe your eyes".

I agree that, if I perceived the situation as you have described it, then I'd stop, and it would be inconsiderate not to.

To me however, the fact you were that shocked by the other driver continuing suggests a lack of appreciation of how different road users can perceive the same situation quite differently, such that you couldn't understand how they then behaved differently.

Apart from anything else, the same scene seen from a 180 degree opposite direction can look quite different due to the effect of sunlight and the grouping of the people / any road furniture, such that what was clearly obvious from one angle could be much harder to spot from the opposite direction.

In this case it was of no consequence, but the assumption that others see the situation as you do can lead to issues.

In this case there was only 2 ways to see the situation...the right way or the wrong way!
You are giving potential excuses for the driver who did not stop, but regardless they were still wrong.

[Rough101]

samoht said:

So there were no pedestrians on the pedestrian crossing, there were no pedestrians moving towards the pedestrian crossing, a driver continued perfectly legally, and you "could hardly believe your eyes".

I agree that, if I perceived the situation as you have described it, then I'd stop, and it would be inconsiderate not to.

To me however, the fact you were that shocked by the other driver continuing suggests a lack of appreciation of how different road users can perceive the same situation quite differently, such that you couldn't understand how they then behaved differently.

Apart from anything else, the same scene seen from a 180 degree opposite direction can look quite different due to the effect of sunlight and the grouping of the people / any road furniture, such that what was clearly obvious from one angle could be much harder to spot from the opposite direction.

In this case it was of no consequence, but the assumption that others see the situation as you do can lead to issues.

They’re waiting to cross you should stop. Nothing else. Miss that and your observation skills are below that needed to drive safely.

[fatjon]

DickyC said:

Last week, on a normal 30mph road here in Newbury, I slowed down to become the third car waiting at a Zebra Crossing. It was half past two in the afternoon, the weather was dry, visibility was good. At this point, there were no cars facing us. Waiting at the kerb were three adults and a guide dog. The dog was sitting, waiting. A woman wearing dark glasses was holding on to the dog's harness, one of the other adults was holding the dog with a second harness, the third adult was holding the woman with dark glasses by the arm. Ah, ha, I thought, a training session for the dog and its new keeper. The drivers were being patient, which was good to see. Some words were exchanged, the dog stood up and a Corsa coming the other way went straight through without stopping. I could hardly believe my eyes. How on earth could you not see that? Or how, if you saw it, could you think was okay to ignore it all and carry on?

I felt sorry for the dog. "I'm sure they said cars would stop."

And folks wonder why Corsas are disproportionately expensive to insure. They really do seem to attract a certain type of tt.

[jimmytheone]

Gary29 said:

Whataguy said:

Around here I avoid Zebra crossings as a pedestrian - I never expect anyone to obey them
.

Me too, I find it much safer to take my chances and cross elsewhere rather than relying on people to actually see you and stop. And I don't need to inconvenience motorists whilst I'm able bodied and spritely enough to cross on my own.

At least the dog got some 'real' world experience. I can't imagine how intimidating it must be trying to get around as a blind pedestrian.

[samoht]

Rough101 said:

They’re waiting to cross you should stop. Nothing else. Miss that and your observation skills are below that needed to drive safely.

You're totally missing the point. The question is not 'if someone is waiting to cross, should you stop?'. The question is 'how do you know that someone is waiting to cross?' Since waiting to cross is a question of intent which is inside the pedestrian's head, you can't know for sure, you can only observe their visible actions and guess accordingly.


On my driving test I approached a zebra crossing. I observed a woman standing on the pavement adjacent to the crossing. I inferred that she was waiting to cross. I came to a smooth and controlled halt at the crossing.

The woman continued chatting to her friend, and didn't cross.

Eventually I realised that my inference had been wrong, and continued.

I failed my driving test for this undue hesitation.


Clearly in this case, to the OP from their viewpoint with the time they had, it was obvious that the pedestrians were waiting to cross. None of us know how the situation appeared from the opposite direction to the Corsa driver.

• Maybe they saw the situation perfectly clearly, and selfishly continued regardless
• Maybe they were distracted and weren't doing a very good job of observation
• Or maybe the guide dog was occluded by a bollard or railings, and they just saw a group of people standing around in the vicinity of a crossing, making no apparent efforts to proceed across it, like the chatty woman I failed my driving test stopping for.

We don't know.

My point is that the assumption that "what is obvious to me is obvious to others" is a foundation of misunderstandings, some of which, on the road, can be hazardous.

[Ron240]

samoht said:

On my driving test I approached a zebra crossing. I observed a woman standing on the pavement adjacent to the crossing. I inferred that she was waiting to cross. I came to a smooth and controlled halt at the crossing.

The woman continued chatting to her friend, and didn't cross.

Eventually I realised that my inference had been wrong, and continued.

I failed my driving test for this undue hesitation.

Taking what you said at face value then I can guarantee you did not fail your test simply for the act of stopping at a zebra crossing with the intention of letting somebody cross who was standing at the kerb.

[DickyC]

I'd wager that if there was someone looking like they were ready to cross and there were three cars already stopped facing you and you'd driven through without slowing down, you'd have failed for that instead.

[samoht]

Ron240 said:

samoht said:

On my driving test I approached a zebra crossing. I observed a woman standing on the pavement adjacent to the crossing. I inferred that she was waiting to cross. I came to a smooth and controlled halt at the crossing.

The woman continued chatting to her friend, and didn't cross.

Eventually I realised that my inference had been wrong, and continued.

I failed my driving test for this undue hesitation.

Taking what you said at face value then I can guarantee you did not fail your test simply for the act of stopping at a zebra crossing with the intention of letting somebody cross who was standing at the kerb.

Kinda - it was the time I was stationary for rather than the stopping per se.

The thing is, having formed the belief that the woman was waiting to cross and stopped, I then didn't want to move off as she might actually start crossing. So I waited, expecting her to cross, and then finally realised she definitely wasn't crossing and moved off again.

Perhaps there was a shorter length of time I could realistically have stopped for, inferred she wasn't crossing, and moved off and not have failed the test, I don't know - it was a long time ago.

Again it's the issue of intent not being directly visible, and needing to infer it from actions, which is inherently uncertain and subjective.

[Mandat]

Out of interest, was there a central island in the middle of the crossing?

[DickyC]

Mandat said:

Out of interest, was there a central island in the middle of the crossing?

No, just a regular crossing. I was interested in samoht's response and looked to see if there was any official guidance concerning the partially sighted at Zebra Crossings. No, like everyone else, they have to commit to crossing in order for cars to be obliged to stop. The Internet chatter about it suggests using crossings with lights. This particular crossing is roughly half way between a pedestrian underpass and a pedestrian crossing with lights, a quarter of a mile each way at a guess.

[DickyC]

Three adults and a guide dog waiting on the right at the crossing. I joined two cars already stopped on the left.

[Pica-Pica]

DickyC said:

Three adults and a guide dog waiting on the right at the crossing. I joined two cars already stopped on the left.

So the pedestrians were on the same side of the road as the errant driver?
Basically poor driving, even careless, IMO.

[DickyC]

Pica-Pica said:

So the pedestrians were on the same side of the road as the errant driver?
Basically poor driving, even careless, IMO.

Correct. Day dreaming, ignorant or didn't care. Or all three.