Stats Vs Reality

[Gress]

Heyo. Been looking at finally getting something that's worth taking to my local track; basically just filtered out anything over 6s 0-60 and FWD on Autotrader and just put everything into a spreadsheet (I'm boring).
Was also comparing the track times for them on https://fastestlaps.com/ as they all seem to have a laptime set at the same track (Autozeitung test track) which is great, but that got me thinking- does anything past weight and power really matter?
Track times will almost entirely be dictated by tyres and suspension, both of which will be getting replaced regardless.
Sure, there are things that will matter like weight distribution, and how much power the engine can take before exploding (Think K20/K24) that might factor into the decision without it being very obvious just based on the stock stats alone, but is there any real reason why there would be a large discrepancy between the track times if two different cars with similar power and weight (and drivetrain) did a lap, assuming the suspension and tyres were the same?
Curious if the differences between times whilst stock are largely just borne from stock suspension stiffness, and how shoddy the OEM tyres are.

[mmm-five]

Driver, temperature, track conditions?

[kambites]

I think it depends what you mean by "the suspension will be replaced". Replacing springs and dampers is a very different thing than "replacing the suspension" because the kinematics play a huge role in handling.

ETA: Also think about how fast you really want the car to be because a faster car will mean:

1) You're constantly getting stuck behind slower cars
2) If you have an off, it's likely to result in more damage
3) You'll eat through things like tyres, brakes and suspension components faster

Edited by kambites on Monday 10th June 19:47

[Gress]

mmm-five said:

Driver, temperature, track conditions?

It's a German magazine that tests tonnes of new cars on that course, and not speaking German myself I'm not 100% on this, but for the most part I think they are using the same driver(s) for their testing.
I can't speak to the weather conditions though, so that may indeed be a factor.

[Gress]

kambites said:

I think it depends what you mean by "the suspension will be replaced". Replacing springs and dampers is a very different thing than "replacing the suspension" because the kinematics play a huge role in handling.

Sorry, just installing coilovers. Changing the actual geometry seems like a massive undertaking, and I don't have the experience for something like that yet.

[kambites]

Gress said:

kambites said:

I think it depends what you mean by "the suspension will be replaced". Replacing springs and dampers is a very different thing than "replacing the suspension" because the kinematics play a huge role in handling.

Sorry, just installing coilovers. Changing the actual geometry seems like a massive undertaking, and I don't have the experience for something like that yet.

Yes changing the geometry (beyond what's designed to be adjusted on the car in question) can be such a big undertaking that it's usually cheaper to just buy a car with better suspension in the first place.

[e-honda]

Try comparing a smart roadster and a smart fortwo
Same power train, same brakes, more or less the same suspension the main differences are weight distribution and wheel positions, but the difference is absolutely huge.

[Jimjimhim]

So you've filtered out the Renault Megane?!

Also something that you're forgetting about the most important thing for a track day car that's way more important than anything else, fun! Speed is just a number, but it's something fun that you will remember (which yes can include speed) and enjoy. Relax your filters on autotrader and instead concentrate on what's fun.

[Gress]

e-honda said:

Try comparing a smart roadster and a smart fortwo
Same power train, same brakes, more or less the same suspension the main differences are weight distribution and wheel positions, but the difference is absolutely huge.

Great advise, thanks. I will look into it!

[Gress]

Jimjimhim said:

So you've filtered out the Renault Megane?!

Also something that you're forgetting about the most important thing for a track day car that's way more important than anything else, fun! Speed is just a number, but it's something fun that you will remember (which yes can include speed) and enjoy. Relax your filters on autotrader and instead concentrate on what's fun.

As amazing as the megan is, as you mentioned about fun, I do really want to be able to throw a RWD car around, or hard launch an AWD
FWD engine bays are super cramped too, so harder to work on

[Griffith4ever]

Gress said:

Jimjimhim said:

So you've filtered out the Renault Megane?!

Also something that you're forgetting about the most important thing for a track day car that's way more important than anything else, fun! Speed is just a number, but it's something fun that you will remember (which yes can include speed) and enjoy. Relax your filters on autotrader and instead concentrate on what's fun.

As amazing as the megan is, as you mentioned about fun, I do really want to be able to throw a RWD car around, or hard launch an AWD
FWD engine bays are super cramped too, so harder to work on

Just so you know, the few tracks I've used ban you for drifting so be carefull.....

[Jimjimhim]

Gress said:

Jimjimhim said:

So you've filtered out the Renault Megane?!

Also something that you're forgetting about the most important thing for a track day car that's way more important than anything else, fun! Speed is just a number, but it's something fun that you will remember (which yes can include speed) and enjoy. Relax your filters on autotrader and instead concentrate on what's fun.

As amazing as the megan is, as you mentioned about fun, I do really want to be able to throw a RWD car around, or hard launch an AWD
FWD engine bays are super cramped too, so harder to work on

Fair enough but you should try one before you rule one out, there is a reason they are so popular at track days.

What do you mean by wanting to hard launch an AWD? Do you mean at a drag strip?

[Gress]

Jimjimhim said:

Fair enough but you should try one before you rule one out, there is a reason they are so popular at track days.

What do you mean by wanting to hard launch an AWD? Do you mean at a drag strip?

Yessss, at the "drag strip"

[Gress]

Jimjimhim said:

Fair enough but you should try one before you rule one out, there is a reason they are so popular at track days.

What do you mean by wanting to hard launch an AWD? Do you mean at a drag strip?

I think i will now that you mention it though. They really do stand out in terms of their performance both on track and off.

[Gress]

Griffith4ever said:

Just so you know, the few tracks I've used ban you for drifting so be carefull.....

My local track has drift events somewhat frequently thankfully

[Griffith4ever]

Gress said:

Griffith4ever said:

Just so you know, the few tracks I've used ban you for drifting so be carefull.....

My local track has drift events somewhat frequently thankfully

Aye - so do the ones I have used, but they are super full-on against it when on normal days.

[Jayho]

e-honda said:

Try comparing a smart roadster and a smart fortwo
Same power train, same brakes, more or less the same suspension the main differences are weight distribution and wheel positions, but the difference is absolutely huge.

Reminds me of an old episode of Initial D where there was a Coupe AE86 vs the Hatch AE86 and they were saying how track users preferred the Coupes for aero and rally drivers preferred the Hatch for stiffness. Was always a funny little bit in there for me.

[Capitan Obvio]

Gress said:

Heyo. Been looking at finally getting something that's worth taking to my local track; basically just filtered out anything over 6s 0-60 and FWD on Autotrader and just put everything into a spreadsheet (I'm boring).
Was also comparing the track times for them on https://fastestlaps.com/ as they all seem to have a laptime set at the same track (Autozeitung test track) which is great, but that got me thinking- does anything past weight and power really matter?
Track times will almost entirely be dictated by tyres and suspension, both of which will be getting replaced regardless.
Sure, there are things that will matter like weight distribution, and how much power the engine can take before exploding (Think K20/K24) that might factor into the decision without it being very obvious just based on the stock stats alone, but is there any real reason why there would be a large discrepancy between the track times if two different cars with similar power and weight (and drivetrain) did a lap, assuming the suspension and tyres were the same?
Curious if the differences between times whilst stock are largely just borne from stock suspension stiffness, and how shoddy the OEM tyres are.

Your whole thought process makes sense were I going racing or competitive time trialling.

For track days I’ve had a few toys, but I maintain the most fun I ever had was the off season / damp conditions cheap fee track days in a well set up mk1 mx5 on road tyres.
It wasn’t Tokyo drift but every single corner was about getting the perfect little slip angle because that’s how the car felt alive.
It was cheap and bullet proof reliability to boot.
I’ve had much faster ‘stickier’ cars subsequently that I actually enjoyed less on track (and cost me a lot more!).

So I’d think more about what outcome you’re looking for before obsessing over the stats of how fast or not something is.

[J4CKO]

Have you ever driven on track before ?

Seems like you are overthinking it, just take a car that is roadworthy, has fresh oil, recent brake fluid and pads, plenty of tyre life and give it a go. Doesnt have to be something mega, just something that will more or less cope with hard use, and even then you dont have to be going flat out all the time, in fact you need to build up to it.

Then you will likely get the big and spend every penny on modifications and totally ruin a perfectly good car for road use

Since my last track day, a big brake kit, rear anti roll bar and a baffled sump have been fitted, some track tyres will be ordered and am then ready for the next one.

Temptation, like a lot of things based on research and spreadsheets is to over eg it, want a dog ? best get a massive one, am hungry so will order the biggest burger and its true in a lot of things, but in reality its est to start small and enjoy the process, going in all full on is possibly going to be less fun if you arent used to it.

You cant also base it on others experience, you need to live it, a mate decided that what he needed was to change his mountain bike from geared to single speed, he did and hated it, as those guys who did it and said it was awesome were super fit, seasoned MTB riders looking for a new challenge, not an unfit chap with various bad habits who did a couple of easy rides a year.

[e-honda]

The most important thing is brakes, because until you get your confidence up to carry maximum speed through the corners you are putting far more energy into the brakes, a fast accelerating car will just cooked your brakes quicker and you'll spend the rest of the session learning how much slower it is having to lift and engine brake well before every corner.