Stellantis to close Luton Vauxhall factory
Discussion
As per the title really , but while we are on the subject , noises have been made about Nissan being almost bankrupt, also Ford ,Volkswagen and again Stellantis haemorrhaging billions , probably a few others too .Those that are left are probably just about making enough to cover the company toilet tissue invoice.
Anyone want to offer any reasons for all this calamity.
Anyone want to offer any reasons for all this calamity.
Patio said:
Motor industry been in the poo for years
Bit like the the NHS every winter....about to collapse but somehow keeps going!
Indeed. Ford's debt alone is reported at something like $150bn, probably higher in reality. I recall reading a Jeremy Clarkson piece that first pointed out that most of the automotive giants are essentially bankrupt about 20 years ago! They're all propped up as national points of pride by their home governments though.Bit like the the NHS every winter....about to collapse but somehow keeps going!
There's no news here, at least, no new news. Although I suppose we could just blame it all on electric cars?
In all seriousness some of the current big manufacturers will probably falter in the coming years. The new competition from China and Korea in certain segments is fierce. The world changes, former giants fall. It's not calamity though, it's just the tide of global business rolling on. It's normal, perhaps even... healthy.
[quote=TheDeuce]
Indeed. Ford's debt alone is reported at something like $150bn, probably higher in reality. I recall reading a Jeremy Clarkson piece that first pointed out that most of the automotive giants are essentially bankrupt about 20 years ago! They're all propped up as national points of pride by their home governments though.
There's no news here, at least, no new news. Although I suppose we could just blame it all on electric cars?
In all seriousness some of the current big manufacturers will probably falter in the coming years. The new competition from China and Korea in certain segments is fierce. The world changes, former giants fall. It's not calamity though, it's just the tide of global business rolling on. It's normal, perhaps even... healthy.
[/quote
China make everything ? that`s healthy ?? I`m ok with shipping over little bits of tat ,but not everything .
We could blame it on electric cars, ? Sure we can ,but that`s not the real reason, is it ? Manufacturers are over-stretched designing them, developing them, building & marketing them to a public that is luke warm at best , so why are they doing it ?
Indeed. Ford's debt alone is reported at something like $150bn, probably higher in reality. I recall reading a Jeremy Clarkson piece that first pointed out that most of the automotive giants are essentially bankrupt about 20 years ago! They're all propped up as national points of pride by their home governments though.
There's no news here, at least, no new news. Although I suppose we could just blame it all on electric cars?
In all seriousness some of the current big manufacturers will probably falter in the coming years. The new competition from China and Korea in certain segments is fierce. The world changes, former giants fall. It's not calamity though, it's just the tide of global business rolling on. It's normal, perhaps even... healthy.
[/quote
China make everything ? that`s healthy ?? I`m ok with shipping over little bits of tat ,but not everything .
We could blame it on electric cars, ? Sure we can ,but that`s not the real reason, is it ? Manufacturers are over-stretched designing them, developing them, building & marketing them to a public that is luke warm at best , so why are they doing it ?
TheDeuce said:
Indeed. Ford's debt alone is reported at something like $150bn, probably higher in reality. I recall reading a Jeremy Clarkson piece that first pointed out that most of the automotive giants are essentially bankrupt about 20 years ago! They're all propped up as national points of pride by their home governments though.
Yep, its $150bn. But $122bn is from Ford Credit. I believe that you need to account for the total amount on your books, even though its pushed to the consumer. Technically shows up as debt on the entire companies books. Dont get me wrong, thats a stupidly high number, but they arent insolvent.... yet.....Selling though $80k - $100k trucks looks great, but when the consumer puts them on credit for 6 years, it doesnt look so great.
off_again said:
....
Selling though $80k - $100k trucks looks great, but when the consumer puts them on credit for 6 years, it doesnt look so great.
In part I suppose it depends who you sold them to.Selling though $80k - $100k trucks looks great, but when the consumer puts them on credit for 6 years, it doesnt look so great.
It's more like renting a property out versus actually selling one. And you getting a slice of all pies rather than a mortgage lender getting a healthy cut
The model is also intended to hook you into the marque...so every 3yrs or so you take out a new "rental" agreement.
All fine until the global Merry go round stops. But then everyone's at it....
hot metal said:
As per the title really , but while we are on the subject , noises have been made about Nissan being almost bankrupt, also Ford ,Volkswagen and again Stellantis haemorrhaging billions , probably a few others too .Those that are left are probably just about making enough to cover the company toilet tissue invoice.
Anyone want to offer any reasons for all this calamity.
Capacity more than demand. High fixed costs, every one hoping the other side will blink first and shut down plants.Anyone want to offer any reasons for all this calamity.
off_again said:
Yep, its $150bn. But $122bn is from Ford Credit. I believe that you need to account for the total amount on your books, even though its pushed to the consumer. Technically shows up as debt on the entire companies books. Dont get me wrong, thats a stupidly high number, but they arent insolvent.... yet.....
Selling though $80k - $100k trucks looks great, but when the consumer puts them on credit for 6 years, it doesnt look so great.
Yeah that's a huge part of their business; when came out of uni I went to a (technical) job interview at Ford, the main interviewer went on and on about how Ford is really a finance company and the cars just sell the finance. Selling though $80k - $100k trucks looks great, but when the consumer puts them on credit for 6 years, it doesnt look so great.
I took a job elsewhere so never found out if that's the reality in the company, maybe that interviewer was unrepresentative, but it honestly felt like they couldn't have given less of a s
t about their actual products. Maybe that complacency is now coming home to roost?hot metal said:
TheDeuce said:
Indeed. Ford's debt alone is reported at something like $150bn, probably higher in reality. I recall reading a Jeremy Clarkson piece that first pointed out that most of the automotive giants are essentially bankrupt about 20 years ago! They're all propped up as national points of pride by their home governments though.
There's no news here, at least, no new news. Although I suppose we could just blame it all on electric cars?
In all seriousness some of the current big manufacturers will probably falter in the coming years. The new competition from China and Korea in certain segments is fierce. The world changes, former giants fall. It's not calamity though, it's just the tide of global business rolling on. It's normal, perhaps even... healthy.
China make everything ? that`s healthy ?? I`m ok with shipping over little bits of tat ,but not everything . There's no news here, at least, no new news. Although I suppose we could just blame it all on electric cars?
In all seriousness some of the current big manufacturers will probably falter in the coming years. The new competition from China and Korea in certain segments is fierce. The world changes, former giants fall. It's not calamity though, it's just the tide of global business rolling on. It's normal, perhaps even... healthy.
You also don't just buy little bits of 'tat' from China. You're using thousands if not millions of Chinese components when you post on this forum and then read this reply. Whatever device you're accessing it from probably has a majority of Chinese components if not full manufacture. Most cars for decades now have been heavily reliant on Chinese produced components too.
You're not just buying 'tat' here and there, your day to day life makes continuous use and purchase of Chinese products.
TheBinarySheep said:
I watched a video that said VW are asking staff to take a 10% pay cut, and they want to close some factories, and they're something like $240bn in debt.
Then I read Honda and Nissan are in talks to merge.
Sub-headline in the FT last weekend:Then I read Honda and Nissan are in talks to merge.
"Porsche holding company warns of writedown in Volkswagen stake of up to €20bn. Management and unions at carmaker will hold a fifth round of talks on Monday over planned factory closures and job cuts"
Also read somewhere that Audi are closing their Brussels factory which makes the Q8 e-Tron.
Bumpy road ahead for many......
delta0 said:
This site makes petrol and diesel vans most of which are exported to mainland Europe. A combination of high interest rates impacting loans, an upcoming bad economic cycle and high costs of manufacturing in UK and Europe is a recipe for disaster.
My bold for clarity. Luton voted overwhelmingly in favour of Brexit.
In other news, I complained when leopards ate my face, after voting for the Face Eating Leopard Party.
Seriously, what did they expect? Rhetorical question. They've taken back control of their own destiny alright.
Meanwhile those in favour of Brexit empowered the Tories who came up with the ridiculous ZEV mandate which manufacturers have told them is unworkable:
https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/...
Labour could step in to do something about this but they won't. Everyone is terrified of standing up against it.
FWIW I am in favour of a more gradual transition to EVs, Hydrogen, Synthetic fuels etc. The pace of change that is being forced on us is too rapid and is bound to have casualties.
Shooter McGavin said:
delta0 said:
This site makes petrol and diesel vans most of which are exported to mainland Europe. A combination of high interest rates impacting loans, an upcoming bad economic cycle and high costs of manufacturing in UK and Europe is a recipe for disaster.
My bold for clarity. Luton voted overwhelmingly in favour of Brexit.
In other news, I complained when leopards ate my face, after voting for the Face Eating Leopard Party.
Seriously, what did they expect? Rhetorical question. They've taken back control of their own destiny alright.
Meanwhile those in favour of Brexit empowered the Tories who came up with the ridiculous ZEV mandate which manufacturers have told them is unworkable:
https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/...
Labour could step in to do something about this but they won't. Everyone is terrified of standing up against it.
FWIW I am in favour of a more gradual transition to EVs, Hydrogen, Synthetic fuels etc. The pace of change that is being forced on us is too rapid and is bound to have casualties.
In 2030 There could be 7M EVs and and 2035 15.75M BEVs from a fleet of over 33M on UK roads if the sales hit mandated targets. It will take at least a further ten years for the vast majority of cars to be BEV when attrition is taken into account. So 2012 for the first Tesla saloon and 2045/50 to all BEV. That is not remotely fast.
Only those with their heads in the sand believe that we should not decarbonise our future. Unless of course you are willing to tolerate the ever increasing cost of mitigation and more mass migrations.
TheBinarySheep said:
I watched a video that said VW are asking staff to take a 10% pay cut, and they want to close some factories, and they're something like $240bn in debt.
Then I read Honda and Nissan are in talks to merge.
i read that headline too, then read the article which talked instead of cooperation on EV's, batteries, tech, etc.Then I read Honda and Nissan are in talks to merge.
Whether that leads to a full blown merger is some way off i think. Foxconn apparently interested in Nissan too, then there's the Renault partnership. Sounds like some mind-boggling legal paperwork in the mix
"Honda and Nissan agreed in March to cooperate in their EV businesses, and in August deepened their ties, agreeing to work together on batteries and other technology.
In August, the two companies also announced an agreement with Mitsubishi Motors, to discuss intelligence and electrification.
The Nikkei also reported that Nissan and Honda may eventually bring Mitsubishi into any potential partnership. Nissan is Mitsubishi's biggest shareholder."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cr56r74214eo
I believe that part of the problem is a generational change in requirements from a vehicle.
For my generation, the key facts were things like performance, badge and looks with purchase price in there somewhere.
The current generation starting on car use are more interested in connectivity, USBs, 'gadgets' and monthly lease/PCP price. It seems there is very little 'badge snobbery' and any manufacturer will do.
As others have noted, China has invested heavily in ground up BEVs and produces them at a price that seems okay to most users. The 'traditional' manufacturers need to adjust to this and realise that sales based on brand image is mostly a thing of the past. Monthly price seems more important.
I personally feel synthetic fuel has legs, BEV targets are way to high whilst out grid infrastructure lags behind. Hydrogen may be cost-prohibitive, but it does give a chance to standardise on design features such as replaceable fuel cells in the form of a standard pre-filled cell that can be swapped out when refuelling to minimise risk.
For my generation, the key facts were things like performance, badge and looks with purchase price in there somewhere.
The current generation starting on car use are more interested in connectivity, USBs, 'gadgets' and monthly lease/PCP price. It seems there is very little 'badge snobbery' and any manufacturer will do.
As others have noted, China has invested heavily in ground up BEVs and produces them at a price that seems okay to most users. The 'traditional' manufacturers need to adjust to this and realise that sales based on brand image is mostly a thing of the past. Monthly price seems more important.
I personally feel synthetic fuel has legs, BEV targets are way to high whilst out grid infrastructure lags behind. Hydrogen may be cost-prohibitive, but it does give a chance to standardise on design features such as replaceable fuel cells in the form of a standard pre-filled cell that can be swapped out when refuelling to minimise risk.
MustangGT said:
I believe that part of the problem is a generational change in requirements from a vehicle.
For my generation, the key facts were things like performance, badge and looks with purchase price in there somewhere.
The current generation starting on car use are more interested in connectivity, USBs, 'gadgets' and monthly lease/PCP price. It seems there is very little 'badge snobbery' and any manufacturer will do.
As others have noted, China has invested heavily in ground up BEVs and produces them at a price that seems okay to most users. The 'traditional' manufacturers need to adjust to this and realise that sales based on brand image is mostly a thing of the past. Monthly price seems more important.
I personally feel synthetic fuel has legs, BEV targets are way to high whilst out grid infrastructure lags behind. Hydrogen may be cost-prohibitive, but it does give a chance to standardise on design features such as replaceable fuel cells in the form of a standard pre-filled cell that can be swapped out when refuelling to minimise risk.
Synthetic fuel has been effectively shut down for road cars as it' impossible to produce it as cleanly as some manufacturers promoted, certainly not for a price that anyone would bar a few wealthy ICE purists would pay.For my generation, the key facts were things like performance, badge and looks with purchase price in there somewhere.
The current generation starting on car use are more interested in connectivity, USBs, 'gadgets' and monthly lease/PCP price. It seems there is very little 'badge snobbery' and any manufacturer will do.
As others have noted, China has invested heavily in ground up BEVs and produces them at a price that seems okay to most users. The 'traditional' manufacturers need to adjust to this and realise that sales based on brand image is mostly a thing of the past. Monthly price seems more important.
I personally feel synthetic fuel has legs, BEV targets are way to high whilst out grid infrastructure lags behind. Hydrogen may be cost-prohibitive, but it does give a chance to standardise on design features such as replaceable fuel cells in the form of a standard pre-filled cell that can be swapped out when refuelling to minimise risk.
The only problem with hydrogen cars is that BEV now exist. To sell someone a HFC car requires that person to want a car with less power and practicality but more mechanical complexity than an equivalent BEV, that's a tough sell (and so it has proven)... Worse still, you'd need to sell them to multiple millions of people in the UK for anyone to invest in the refuelling infrastructure, sufficient to make it convenient to fill them up. Having achieved all of that, the remaining problem with synthetic fuels and HFC is that they're still nowhere near as clean and efficient as BEV.
But I'm interested, you feel synthetic fuel does have a future - what's that feeling based on?
MustangGT said:
I believe that part of the problem is a generational change in requirements from a vehicle.
For my generation, the key facts were things like performance, badge and looks with purchase price in there somewhere.
The current generation starting on car use are more interested in connectivity, USBs, 'gadgets' and monthly lease/PCP price. It seems there is very little 'badge snobbery' and any manufacturer will do.
As others have noted, China has invested heavily in ground up BEVs and produces them at a price that seems okay to most users. The 'traditional' manufacturers need to adjust to this and realise that sales based on brand image is mostly a thing of the past. Monthly price seems more important.
I personally feel synthetic fuel has legs, BEV targets are way to high whilst out grid infrastructure lags behind. Hydrogen may be cost-prohibitive, but it does give a chance to standardise on design features such as replaceable fuel cells in the form of a standard pre-filled cell that can be swapped out when refuelling to minimise risk.
I agree that generational change has a lot to do with it, bur I don’t think it’s just people going from performance to tech. For my generation, the key facts were things like performance, badge and looks with purchase price in there somewhere.
The current generation starting on car use are more interested in connectivity, USBs, 'gadgets' and monthly lease/PCP price. It seems there is very little 'badge snobbery' and any manufacturer will do.
As others have noted, China has invested heavily in ground up BEVs and produces them at a price that seems okay to most users. The 'traditional' manufacturers need to adjust to this and realise that sales based on brand image is mostly a thing of the past. Monthly price seems more important.
I personally feel synthetic fuel has legs, BEV targets are way to high whilst out grid infrastructure lags behind. Hydrogen may be cost-prohibitive, but it does give a chance to standardise on design features such as replaceable fuel cells in the form of a standard pre-filled cell that can be swapped out when refuelling to minimise risk.
Before the internet and smartphones cars were a huge part of independence and social interaction. Unless you were in a town or city, having a car (or a friend with a car) was a big part of being able to socialise. When your friends moved around the country for university or job opportunities it allowed people to visit each other.
Now things like video calling, social media, online gaming and dating apps fill a lot of those voids. The ability to get to physically travel to places used to be much more important.
The same was true of business meetings. Go back 20 years it was all face to face. Now I’d say that 70% of my meetings are on Teams/Webex/Zoom.
So in the context of all of that car is already less important.
Even for petrolheads, all cars are getting so bland that it’s lost some of the excitement.
EVs are only adding to this. One electric motor is very much like another. The reason to buy a BMW / Mercedes /. Jag was to get a nice 6 or 8 cynlinder engine. Having driven electric Tesla / BMW / Kia / Mercedes they all feel the same from a power delivery perspective. So more than ever it comes down to price.
Edited by survivalist on Wednesday 18th December 22:07
TheDeuce said:
Synthetic fuel has been effectively shut down for road cars as it' impossible to produce it as cleanly as some manufacturers promoted, certainly not for a price that anyone would bar a few wealthy ICE purists would pay.
The only problem with hydrogen cars is that BEV now exist. To sell someone a HFC car requires that person to want a car with less power and practicality but more mechanical complexity than an equivalent BEV, that's a tough sell (and so it has proven)... Worse still, you'd need to sell them to multiple millions of people in the UK for anyone to invest in the refuelling infrastructure, sufficient to make it convenient to fill them up. Having achieved all of that, the remaining problem with synthetic fuels and HFC is that they're still nowhere near as clean and efficient as BEV.
But I'm interested, you feel synthetic fuel does have a future - what's that feeling based on?
The only problem with hydrogen cars is that BEV now exist. To sell someone a HFC car requires that person to want a car with less power and practicality but more mechanical complexity than an equivalent BEV, that's a tough sell (and so it has proven)... Worse still, you'd need to sell them to multiple millions of people in the UK for anyone to invest in the refuelling infrastructure, sufficient to make it convenient to fill them up. Having achieved all of that, the remaining problem with synthetic fuels and HFC is that they're still nowhere near as clean and efficient as BEV.
But I'm interested, you feel synthetic fuel does have a future - what's that feeling based on?
All those disciples of the church of hydrogen power haven't lead a stampede to Toyota dealers to buy Mirais yet? Say it isn't so. Not enough buyers/leasers for BEV , or so the industry is saying .Many on here say that is just down to price ,but is it just that ? .Choices are more limited ,applications are more limited (you are unlikely to just jump in and drive 300 miles to Cornwall or where ever in 5 hours) .
My son bought a Mustang MACH E recently, it`s ok ,big, bit ugly , probably a little less interior space than his previous Focus estate and our Labrador was certainly a bit squeezed in the load area, but he likes it. But he`s a geeky techy sort , where many are not.
Recently did a trip to see my mother in it, he reckons it cost £6 to do the 150 round trip (ideal distance for the type of car really) the Focus cost £10
The Ford dealer he had the Mustang from ,snatched the Focus from him in a heartbeat (no doubt practically touching themselves afterward) and threw the MACH E at him with all kinds of discounts warranties and promises (saw him coming 50 miles away imo)
In short, auto industry in Europe ,Japan & US getting screwed due to politics . The Chinese will step in , say ta very much, say goodbye to 10 million jobs on a good day. How is this healthy
I do not really have much against BEV , but there should be a choice, if they are so good, they will prevail .
My son bought a Mustang MACH E recently, it`s ok ,big, bit ugly , probably a little less interior space than his previous Focus estate and our Labrador was certainly a bit squeezed in the load area, but he likes it. But he`s a geeky techy sort , where many are not.
Recently did a trip to see my mother in it, he reckons it cost £6 to do the 150 round trip (ideal distance for the type of car really) the Focus cost £10
The Ford dealer he had the Mustang from ,snatched the Focus from him in a heartbeat (no doubt practically touching themselves afterward) and threw the MACH E at him with all kinds of discounts warranties and promises (saw him coming 50 miles away imo)
In short, auto industry in Europe ,Japan & US getting screwed due to politics . The Chinese will step in , say ta very much, say goodbye to 10 million jobs on a good day. How is this healthy
I do not really have much against BEV , but there should be a choice, if they are so good, they will prevail .
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