Clio 0.9 Tce (66 plate... 36k mile)
Discussion
Hi Everyone,
My daughters Clio developed a problem where the check ignition system came up on the dash. Stuck OBD reader on it and it said misfiring cylinder 2.
Changed the plugs and the coil on cylinder 2. The car fault reset and it ran fine for 2 weeks.
It then suddenly went into limp mode and loads of faults came up on the dash:
Check ignition system
Check Brakes
Check ABS
Check start/Stop
Put it into a local garage and they said it had low compression in cylinder 2, but they couldn't do anymore and recommended an engine specialist.
Put it into a local engine specialist and they just confirmed it had low compression on cylinder 2 and would need to strip it down to find fault. They said they had seen this before where it's a common problem with the Clio and the capture engine where a part breaks inside, but wouldn't know until stripped down.
They wanted £2200 to strip it down but couldn't guarantee a repair.
Decided to put it into Renault.
Renault charged £160 just to come back with low compression cylinder 2 , possible broken valve.
Renault wanted £1800 to strip down to find exact fault but said it may be unrepairable. Any repair costs would be extra.They recommended a replacement engine..£4200.
Just wondering if anybody has had this issue before. Don't want to pay £1800 to find out It needs a new engine. Should she just scrap the car and take the loss or is there anything I could try to salvage it.
There is no loss of water , no white / blue or black smoke. No noise from engine when running.
I feel really bad for her tbh. She has only had it 7 months and I helped her get it. Thought it was an ideal first car for her, so any help very much appreciated.
My daughters Clio developed a problem where the check ignition system came up on the dash. Stuck OBD reader on it and it said misfiring cylinder 2.
Changed the plugs and the coil on cylinder 2. The car fault reset and it ran fine for 2 weeks.
It then suddenly went into limp mode and loads of faults came up on the dash:
Check ignition system
Check Brakes
Check ABS
Check start/Stop
Put it into a local garage and they said it had low compression in cylinder 2, but they couldn't do anymore and recommended an engine specialist.
Put it into a local engine specialist and they just confirmed it had low compression on cylinder 2 and would need to strip it down to find fault. They said they had seen this before where it's a common problem with the Clio and the capture engine where a part breaks inside, but wouldn't know until stripped down.
They wanted £2200 to strip it down but couldn't guarantee a repair.
Decided to put it into Renault.
Renault charged £160 just to come back with low compression cylinder 2 , possible broken valve.
Renault wanted £1800 to strip down to find exact fault but said it may be unrepairable. Any repair costs would be extra.They recommended a replacement engine..£4200.
Just wondering if anybody has had this issue before. Don't want to pay £1800 to find out It needs a new engine. Should she just scrap the car and take the loss or is there anything I could try to salvage it.
There is no loss of water , no white / blue or black smoke. No noise from engine when running.
I feel really bad for her tbh. She has only had it 7 months and I helped her get it. Thought it was an ideal first car for her, so any help very much appreciated.
Any half decent garage would have done a 'leak-down' test to determine the source of the low compression ie inlet valve/exhaust valve/rings, and shoved an endoscope in to have a wee look around. Shocking lack of interest/ability/desire to fix.
But it's done quite well for a Renault, lasting 9 years vs. a stated design life of 5...
But it's done quite well for a Renault, lasting 9 years vs. a stated design life of 5...
FluffyTedd said:
It then suddenly went into limp mode and loads of faults came up on the dash:
Check ignition system
Check Brakes
Check ABS
Check start/Stop
These faults would be sending me down the route to a new battery.Check ignition system
Check Brakes
Check ABS
Check start/Stop
FluffyTedd said:
Put it into a local garage and they said it had low compression in cylinder 2, but they couldn't do anymore and recommended an engine specialist.
Put it into a local engine specialist and they just confirmed it had low compression on cylinder 2 and would need to strip it down to find fault. They said they had seen this before where it's a common problem with the Clio and the capture engine where a part breaks inside, but wouldn't know until stripped down.
They wanted £2200 to strip it down but couldn't guarantee a repair.
Decided to put it into Renault.
Renault charged £160 just to come back with low compression cylinder 2 , possible broken valve.
Renault wanted £1800 to strip down to find exact fault but said it may be unrepairable. Any repair costs would be extra.They recommended a replacement engine..£4200.
It seems that the average cost of a strip-down is likely to be around £2k then. As has been said by others, a leak-down test will give a better chance of correct diagnosis. An endoscope through the plug-hole would also be another good step in the process.Put it into a local engine specialist and they just confirmed it had low compression on cylinder 2 and would need to strip it down to find fault. They said they had seen this before where it's a common problem with the Clio and the capture engine where a part breaks inside, but wouldn't know until stripped down.
They wanted £2200 to strip it down but couldn't guarantee a repair.
Decided to put it into Renault.
Renault charged £160 just to come back with low compression cylinder 2 , possible broken valve.
Renault wanted £1800 to strip down to find exact fault but said it may be unrepairable. Any repair costs would be extra.They recommended a replacement engine..£4200.
FluffyTedd said:
Should she just scrap the car and take the loss or is there anything I could try to salvage it.
This can only be down to you, as in how much is the car worth for you to "keep the devil you know" having said that, I certainly wouldn't have put a turbo-charged petrol engined car up for ideal first time car candidate. I know it is not turbo-charged for extreme performance, just that a first car should ideally (as far as I would think) be as simple as possible.FluffyTedd said:
There is no loss of water , no white / blue or black smoke. No noise from engine when running.
These would certainly most likely indicate a higher likelihood of the issue being valves rather than piston/rings.You seem to have two symptoms which aren't obviously related. The low compression is potentially the more serious and there seems no point investigating the engine management system behaviour until you know whether the engine is mechanically sound.
Seems to me all the garages you've consulted essentially don't want to touch it unless you are willing to pay them exhorbitant amounts speculatively. That's a very profitable business model if they can get away with it. The tests mentioned above should only need a few hours of labour, nothing like the thousands that have been mentioned - I guess those quotes were to remove and strip the engine, but I'd expect far more investigation before resorting to such and expensive step.
FluffyTedd said:
they said it had low compression in cylinder 2
What were the actual figures? Depending on the numbers it may turn out to be something you can ignore, or a catastrophic problem.FluffyTedd said:
they couldn't do anymore
A competent garage would have done a leakdown test and endoscopic inspection, which wouldn't take long. If the results indicate a possible valve train problem they could also check that each valve was moving normally.Seems to me all the garages you've consulted essentially don't want to touch it unless you are willing to pay them exhorbitant amounts speculatively. That's a very profitable business model if they can get away with it. The tests mentioned above should only need a few hours of labour, nothing like the thousands that have been mentioned - I guess those quotes were to remove and strip the engine, but I'd expect far more investigation before resorting to such and expensive step.
GreenV8S said:
You seem to have two symptoms which aren't obviously related. The low compression is potentially the more serious and there seems no point investigating the engine management system behaviour until you know whether the engine is mechanically sound.
Seems to me all the garages you've consulted essentially don't want to touch it unless you are willing to pay them exhorbitant amounts speculatively. That's a very profitable business model if they can get away with it. The tests mentioned above should only need a few hours of labour, nothing like the thousands that have been mentioned - I guess those quotes were to remove and strip the engine, but I'd expect far more investigation before resorting to such and expensive step.
All good additional/reiterated points with more detail, as usual there is no substitute for the time, experience & effort of a good mechanic.FluffyTedd said:
they said it had low compression in cylinder 2
What were the actual figures? Depending on the numbers it may turn out to be something you can ignore, or a catastrophic problem.FluffyTedd said:
they couldn't do anymore
A competent garage would have done a leakdown test and endoscopic inspection, which wouldn't take long. If the results indicate a possible valve train problem they could also check that each valve was moving normally.Seems to me all the garages you've consulted essentially don't want to touch it unless you are willing to pay them exhorbitant amounts speculatively. That's a very profitable business model if they can get away with it. The tests mentioned above should only need a few hours of labour, nothing like the thousands that have been mentioned - I guess those quotes were to remove and strip the engine, but I'd expect far more investigation before resorting to such and expensive step.
When hearing stories like this, I am reminded of something that happened to a car of mine many years ago, as I was only just starting working on my own cars/engines etc.
I had just bought an XR4X4 and a few days after buying it it started running like a bag of old spanners when warm.
I was trying to figure out what might be the issue, when my then neighbour walked past & said "top end that". Of course, I asked more & then got a Haynes manual & set about checking what I could. Turns out the previous owner had sent it in for a service & they had overtightened the gap on one of the (I forget which) valve lifters, reset them all (a few others were also out) and it ran as sweet as anything.
A simple adjustment was all the issue was, and all it took was someone with the experience & knowledge to instantly recognise the issue.
Thanks for the replies everyone,
Renault said that the compression in cylinder 2 was at 20psi, so quite a big drop there.
Yes it is a turbo but a 3 cylinder turbo with only 90Bhp at most. It's £20 a year tax and ULEZ. The insurance cost for her was £1200 with a black box fitted and app. The insurance was totally in her own name with no named drivers. The size of car was ideal for her work. A older Peugeot 107 2012 plate came out just 150 cheaper. So yes I it is an ideal starter car for her as she wanted to keep up with the flow of traffic and not cause a flow of traffic.
I agree I was expecting more of a diagnosis from Renault, rather than telling me the symptom rather than the cause. Its a bit like going to the doctor feeling a bit ill and them telling you that:
You have a runny nose
A sore throat
A cough
We will need to operate to find out more, but make sure your will is up to date before you come in...
The value of the car is probably only £4k, so a new battery and we buy any car could be the way forward.
Renault said that the compression in cylinder 2 was at 20psi, so quite a big drop there.
Yes it is a turbo but a 3 cylinder turbo with only 90Bhp at most. It's £20 a year tax and ULEZ. The insurance cost for her was £1200 with a black box fitted and app. The insurance was totally in her own name with no named drivers. The size of car was ideal for her work. A older Peugeot 107 2012 plate came out just 150 cheaper. So yes I it is an ideal starter car for her as she wanted to keep up with the flow of traffic and not cause a flow of traffic.
I agree I was expecting more of a diagnosis from Renault, rather than telling me the symptom rather than the cause. Its a bit like going to the doctor feeling a bit ill and them telling you that:
You have a runny nose
A sore throat
A cough
We will need to operate to find out more, but make sure your will is up to date before you come in...
The value of the car is probably only £4k, so a new battery and we buy any car could be the way forward.
FluffyTedd said:
Renault said that the compression in cylinder 2 was at 20psi, so quite a big drop there.
I agree I was expecting more of a diagnosis from Renault, rather than telling me the symptom rather than the cause.
I would be expecting more of a diagnosis from ANY garage not just Renault, the only other point may be that did the answer come with any caveat like "our normal diagnosis would be at a cost of 1 hours labour" or something similar.I agree I was expecting more of a diagnosis from Renault, rather than telling me the symptom rather than the cause.
In which case that only really gives the time to do what they did, a leak down test & endoscope would have taken another hour or so.
FluffyTedd said:
The value of the car is probably only £4k, so a new battery and we buy any car could be the way forward.
Don't forget there is a caveat with any WBAC sale that if a significant fault is found they will come back to you, so if there are ANY signs of the issue, they could find it themselves.When I booked it in they said there was a minimum 1 hour charge for diagnosis of £160. I gave them a full description of the issue. When they called back they only offered a a strip down cost or replacement engine. I took it from that, they had no other way forward. When I booked it in I did expect to get a cause of the problem from them, then the associated costs.
So really I have paid for a verification of the symptom so far.
So really I have paid for a verification of the symptom so far.
FluffyTedd said:
When I booked it in they said there was a minimum 1 hour charge for diagnosis of £160.
In other words you got exactly what you paid for, a 1 hour diagnosis.FluffyTedd said:
So really I have paid for a verification of the symptom so far.
No you paid for & got an hour of a mechanics time to try to find the PROBLEM, the problem is low compression on one cylinder, at that point they/you should have said can it be narrowed down further with a bit more time & then you would have got another hour & maybe closer to the CAUSE of the problem.Could they have been a bit more pro-active? Yes.
Having just rebuilt a 0.9 TCe, two things are notable:
1. Low compression --> the head needs to come off. No two ways about it, whatever is causing the low compression is something that can only be fixed with the head off. If you just want to know what it is (for curiosity???) then sure, use a borescope etc but it won't be 100%, it will just confirm or eliminate a few things.
2. Its unusual to have low compression in one cylinder, and that cylinder not be at the end of the engine (ie 1 or 3 on a 3 cylinder). The reason being, normally one or other end runs "hot" compared to the others and the fault develops there first, causing the engine to not work properly and thus the problem not spread.
1. Low compression --> the head needs to come off. No two ways about it, whatever is causing the low compression is something that can only be fixed with the head off. If you just want to know what it is (for curiosity???) then sure, use a borescope etc but it won't be 100%, it will just confirm or eliminate a few things.
2. Its unusual to have low compression in one cylinder, and that cylinder not be at the end of the engine (ie 1 or 3 on a 3 cylinder). The reason being, normally one or other end runs "hot" compared to the others and the fault develops there first, causing the engine to not work properly and thus the problem not spread.
Looking for a first car for my daughter and I am avoiding these in favour of the older 1.2 16v. What is the overall feeling about reliability for these engines, I have seen quite a few that state they have had new timing chains fitted.
I have also driven a few of these in a Captur (0.9), new Dacia Sandero Stepway and a brand new Clio and I have to say I didn't really like it. They seemed very difficult to drive smoothly and the Captur seemed absolutely gutless on the motorway when trying to maintain 70 MPH going up a hill. The fuel economy didn't even seem that great considering.
I have also driven a few of these in a Captur (0.9), new Dacia Sandero Stepway and a brand new Clio and I have to say I didn't really like it. They seemed very difficult to drive smoothly and the Captur seemed absolutely gutless on the motorway when trying to maintain 70 MPH going up a hill. The fuel economy didn't even seem that great considering.
They drive like a tiny engine with a turbo, which seems to be a trend lately. BUT if you drive it with economy in mind, you can avoid the "lack of smoothness" when the turbo kicks in, by avoiding that zone of operation. Its a bit smoother like that. And the economy is good - I achieved 53mpg in a 0.9TCe Renault Captur.
I don't know what the exact mode of failure is but mine had a broken chain guide, it had obviously slipped timing at some point and the exhaust valves were bent. No further damage though.
Its like anything these days (and in the past), if you don't service a car, or regularly enough, something might fail. So the key is to find one that's been serviced, or has had a service + timing chain recently, or is priced to reflect its either being broken, or the lack of service info.
I don't know what the exact mode of failure is but mine had a broken chain guide, it had obviously slipped timing at some point and the exhaust valves were bent. No further damage though.
Its like anything these days (and in the past), if you don't service a car, or regularly enough, something might fail. So the key is to find one that's been serviced, or has had a service + timing chain recently, or is priced to reflect its either being broken, or the lack of service info.
Sold mine because it was a b
h to drive smoothly, the turbo kicks in to low and delivers all of its power so you lift off and it instantly dies, then you just repeat the action.
Also it slightly increases the revs when you lift the clutch as anti stall which is also weird to anyone who's been driving 20 plus years.
h to drive smoothly, the turbo kicks in to low and delivers all of its power so you lift off and it instantly dies, then you just repeat the action.Also it slightly increases the revs when you lift the clutch as anti stall which is also weird to anyone who's been driving 20 plus years.
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