Difficult brother-in-law remaining in mother's house
Discussion
Could I ask for a little bit of guidance from the legal minds of PH?
My mother in law died in September 2024, leaving a house valued circa £400k, plus approx £90k in savings. My wife is one of five siblings, the will says 'sell the lot, split it five ways'.
So far, so simple. Here's where it gets a little complicated:
My wife's youngest brother (let's call him John, for the sake of argument) is 52 and apart from 3yrs in his 20s at University where he dropped out weeks before his finals because he refused to be judged by people he felt were intellectually inferior to him (straight up!) he has lived in his parents' home all his life.
When he was alive my father in law tried his best to boot John out but John resisted all attempts, manipulated his mother, feigned mental health issues, dug his feet in and basically outlived his father by living like a hermit who barely ventured out of his bedroom.
After my FiL died in 2016 we got John to re-engage with the world of work, he got a good job which he holds down to this day, manages a team of ten people. He is far from unintelligent and can engage with people when he wants to, albeit awkwardly.
For the past three years he was effectively 'live in carer' for my elderly MiL. As a family we were all grateful for this, as it eased the burden on everyone else. He is mildly (undiagnosed, but it is as clear as day to most people) autistic in the sense that he has some odd behaviours.
He holds down a good job, but has no social life, no friends, no relationship and no real interests other than trolling people on the internet, all round a bit of a sad case. We've tried to change that to no avail.
It's all a bit 'Timothy Lumsden from Sorry', but far less amusing.
My MiL's will says "My son John can stay in the house for 2yrs from the date of my death provided he pays the bills and maintains it, after which the house is to be sold and the proceeds split equally between my five named children"
Originally the will said TEN years, but her solicitor advised 2yrs as more workable. All other siblings (reluctantly) agree that 2yrs is reasonable for John to grieve, have a period of adjustment, give him time to save a deposit to buy/rent his own place once that period is up.
So far, all pretty straightforward if not a bit odd.
Here's the problems:
John very much regards the house as 'his space'.
Two of my wife's siblings are the executors, he has made it difficult for them to gain access to do probate inventory and other things
At the weekend they did gain access and questioned the whereabouts of a small family heirloom (a silver thimble, would you believe) which he had secreted away.
Eventually my brother-in-law (the executor) located it in John's bedside table drawer. John snatched it back and said my BiL would need to get a court order if he wanted it back!
John is generally unwelcoming or conveniently 'out' whenever anyone pops in to check on him and/or the former family home.
A happy, welcoming residence has basically become a no go zone to the other four kids who grew up in that house.
My suspicion is that he is hunkering down and is going to try to eke out every day of his two years there (fair enough, if he wants that) and beyond that.
Which leads me to the main question. He isn't paying any rent, but very much regards it as his house. The siblings will want to market it as soon as reasonably possible but I am struggling to understand the nuances of the 'can live there for 2yrs after my death, after which it is to be sold'.
Bluntly, can we put this place on the market 8-12 months before that 2ys is up, with a condition that the sale cannot complete before the 2yr anniversary of my MiL's death, or do we have to wait until that 2yrs is up, then market it?
It's causing a massive stress amongst all the siblings, any enquiry to the lawyers costs money, I just need a simple answer to this question so I know where we all stand.
My mother in law died in September 2024, leaving a house valued circa £400k, plus approx £90k in savings. My wife is one of five siblings, the will says 'sell the lot, split it five ways'.
So far, so simple. Here's where it gets a little complicated:
My wife's youngest brother (let's call him John, for the sake of argument) is 52 and apart from 3yrs in his 20s at University where he dropped out weeks before his finals because he refused to be judged by people he felt were intellectually inferior to him (straight up!) he has lived in his parents' home all his life.
When he was alive my father in law tried his best to boot John out but John resisted all attempts, manipulated his mother, feigned mental health issues, dug his feet in and basically outlived his father by living like a hermit who barely ventured out of his bedroom.
After my FiL died in 2016 we got John to re-engage with the world of work, he got a good job which he holds down to this day, manages a team of ten people. He is far from unintelligent and can engage with people when he wants to, albeit awkwardly.
For the past three years he was effectively 'live in carer' for my elderly MiL. As a family we were all grateful for this, as it eased the burden on everyone else. He is mildly (undiagnosed, but it is as clear as day to most people) autistic in the sense that he has some odd behaviours.
He holds down a good job, but has no social life, no friends, no relationship and no real interests other than trolling people on the internet, all round a bit of a sad case. We've tried to change that to no avail.
It's all a bit 'Timothy Lumsden from Sorry', but far less amusing.
My MiL's will says "My son John can stay in the house for 2yrs from the date of my death provided he pays the bills and maintains it, after which the house is to be sold and the proceeds split equally between my five named children"
Originally the will said TEN years, but her solicitor advised 2yrs as more workable. All other siblings (reluctantly) agree that 2yrs is reasonable for John to grieve, have a period of adjustment, give him time to save a deposit to buy/rent his own place once that period is up.
So far, all pretty straightforward if not a bit odd.
Here's the problems:
John very much regards the house as 'his space'.
Two of my wife's siblings are the executors, he has made it difficult for them to gain access to do probate inventory and other things
At the weekend they did gain access and questioned the whereabouts of a small family heirloom (a silver thimble, would you believe) which he had secreted away.
Eventually my brother-in-law (the executor) located it in John's bedside table drawer. John snatched it back and said my BiL would need to get a court order if he wanted it back!
John is generally unwelcoming or conveniently 'out' whenever anyone pops in to check on him and/or the former family home.
A happy, welcoming residence has basically become a no go zone to the other four kids who grew up in that house.
My suspicion is that he is hunkering down and is going to try to eke out every day of his two years there (fair enough, if he wants that) and beyond that.
Which leads me to the main question. He isn't paying any rent, but very much regards it as his house. The siblings will want to market it as soon as reasonably possible but I am struggling to understand the nuances of the 'can live there for 2yrs after my death, after which it is to be sold'.
Bluntly, can we put this place on the market 8-12 months before that 2ys is up, with a condition that the sale cannot complete before the 2yr anniversary of my MiL's death, or do we have to wait until that 2yrs is up, then market it?
It's causing a massive stress amongst all the siblings, any enquiry to the lawyers costs money, I just need a simple answer to this question so I know where we all stand.
Edited by Shooter McGavin on Wednesday 12th February 13:18
Mr E said:
Sell the house to him?
We did float this idea and he has independently investigated it but given his age and earnings he would not be able to get an affordable mortgage to be able to buy everyone else out. Getting lodgers in would be a non-starter, he would be impossible to live with.
PistonBroker said:
My immediate thought is that you're going to struggle to market it if the brother-in-law won't let the family in. How will anyone view it?
This is kind of why I am asking. Are the executors within rights to say "you are welcome to your two years, but we want the property sold on day 731. Therefore, you need to allow access for estate agents/viewings etc in advance of that, so we can complete a sale as soon as the 2yrs is up" borcy said:
Sounds like he never wants to leave regardless of what it says in the will or any laws.
Might end having to go eviction route to get him out?
This is my fear.Might end having to go eviction route to get him out?
My mother-in-law was a churchgoing primary school teacher, a devoted Catholic, saw good in everyone.
What she has tried to do here is be 'fair' to everyone.
What she's actually created is a huge amount of resentment.
It's sad, and I can already see the strains amongst the various siblings so am trying to mediate as best I can, before anyone says/does anything they regret.
Shooter McGavin said:
This is kind of why I am asking. Are the executors within rights to say "you are welcome to your two years, but we want the property sold on day 731. Therefore, you need to allow access for estate agents/viewings etc in advance of that, so we can complete a sale as soon as the 2yrs is up"
The issue is if he wants to be awkward then it's remarkably easy to be awkward.If you want to follow the rules then it's a slow process
Of course you could be awkward and not follow the rules, but that is not easy for most people.
Shooter McGavin said:
borcy said:
Sounds like he never wants to leave regardless of what it says in the will or any laws.
Might end having to go eviction route to get him out?
This is my fear.Might end having to go eviction route to get him out?
My mother-in-law was a churchgoing primary school teacher, a devoted Catholic, saw good in everyone.
What she has tried to do here is be 'fair' to everyone.
What she's actually created is a huge amount of resentment.
It's sad, and I can already see the strains amongst the various siblings so am trying to mediate as best I can, before anyone says/does anything they regret.
borcy said:
Did the solicitors not offer any opinion on the wording?
Apparently not. It would have been my first question as an executor. However all of the siblings are complicated people so I don't want to be seen to be directly poking my nose in, but also have my wife complaining about it all every night, so I thought I would approach the hive mind of PH for some help in the hope that someone has been there/done that.
Shooter McGavin said:
borcy said:
Did the solicitors not offer any opinion on the wording?
Apparently not. It would have been my first question as an executor. However all of the siblings are complicated people so I don't want to be seen to be directly poking my nose in, but also have my wife complaining about it all every night, so I thought I would approach the hive mind of PH for some help in the hope that someone has been there/done that.
Non legal persons opinion, marketing it, showing it isn't the same as it being sold. You could auction it?
few things having gone through probate (I am not a Solicitor):
Does the family want to engage with lawyers to manage the probate process? Some lawyers work on a fee basis, but others price with a flat fee which could be an option for this situation (which I'll go into why below). Co-op group are the largest and who we went with, and whilst their service is a bit "email" heavy and they are a bit of a conveyor belt they have got everything sorted for us, the more complex the estate the more they charge - so in this case if it's fairly straight fwd the fee would be 4 figs rather than 5 figs.
The reason for bringing that up as a suggestion is that if an independent third party lawyer is handling the estate administration, it can take the personal / family effect out of this situation. That may be worth it's weight in gold for the cost of somewhere between £1k to £2k per sibling for a lawyer to handle all this. Their fee also comes out of the estate, so you don't pay for it up front. The lawyer will also be there for advice - and if fixed fee like the Co-op you can ask as many questions as you like (we did).
I can see this being a difficult one for the reasons you stated above and the younger brother sounds like he will be tough to deal with/evict.
If he earns decent money then selling to him may be an option, the property will need to have a market value for probate purposes so if a price can be agreed upon that may be the best way out.
As he is in the home, he will control the assets within the home also. Nothing to stop him selling stuff and pocketing the money, hiding things, removing things. This is the bit which you can't control. Again a lawyer acting for the estate will be able to at least have some sort of ability to at least put him off doing that, and taking instruction from a lawyer will probably be easier for the younger brother instead of older siblings which he feels he has to defend his position against.
A tough one, but defo I would advise to suggest to the family to instruct a lawyer. This will reduce stress all around. I think the cost is worth it. Update us how it goes.
Does the family want to engage with lawyers to manage the probate process? Some lawyers work on a fee basis, but others price with a flat fee which could be an option for this situation (which I'll go into why below). Co-op group are the largest and who we went with, and whilst their service is a bit "email" heavy and they are a bit of a conveyor belt they have got everything sorted for us, the more complex the estate the more they charge - so in this case if it's fairly straight fwd the fee would be 4 figs rather than 5 figs.
The reason for bringing that up as a suggestion is that if an independent third party lawyer is handling the estate administration, it can take the personal / family effect out of this situation. That may be worth it's weight in gold for the cost of somewhere between £1k to £2k per sibling for a lawyer to handle all this. Their fee also comes out of the estate, so you don't pay for it up front. The lawyer will also be there for advice - and if fixed fee like the Co-op you can ask as many questions as you like (we did).
I can see this being a difficult one for the reasons you stated above and the younger brother sounds like he will be tough to deal with/evict.
If he earns decent money then selling to him may be an option, the property will need to have a market value for probate purposes so if a price can be agreed upon that may be the best way out.
As he is in the home, he will control the assets within the home also. Nothing to stop him selling stuff and pocketing the money, hiding things, removing things. This is the bit which you can't control. Again a lawyer acting for the estate will be able to at least have some sort of ability to at least put him off doing that, and taking instruction from a lawyer will probably be easier for the younger brother instead of older siblings which he feels he has to defend his position against.
A tough one, but defo I would advise to suggest to the family to instruct a lawyer. This will reduce stress all around. I think the cost is worth it. Update us how it goes.
How much mortgage can he get? Might be worth taking a hit on the house value, or even selling him a majority share and some / all of you keep an interest. You need to work with him on options because as you've described it it is highly unlikely he will allow viewings, it's very easy to disrupt a sale, and he could drag this on for years until you give up. Who knows what state the house will be left in.
Might be worth putting yourself in his shoes, he will likely be feeling attacked, he's lost his mum and you're threatening to take the only home he's known away. Ask him what he wants, what would work for him, does he see himself buying/renting a new home. You have time to work on him, build some kind of trust. Trying to get it on the market sooner will just put him in full defence mode.
Nasty situation!
Might be worth putting yourself in his shoes, he will likely be feeling attacked, he's lost his mum and you're threatening to take the only home he's known away. Ask him what he wants, what would work for him, does he see himself buying/renting a new home. You have time to work on him, build some kind of trust. Trying to get it on the market sooner will just put him in full defence mode.
Nasty situation!
S1MMA said:
A tough one, but defo I would advise to suggest to the family to instruct a lawyer. This will reduce stress all around. I think the cost is worth it. Update us how it goes.
Agreed.......executors should engage solicitors to handle admin of the estate and I would suggest they give him a tenancy contract......IANAL but have had similar.....may seem costly now but it could get very costly if it's not done right and he sticks his heels in.borcy said:
Sounds like he never wants to leave regardless of what it says in the will or any laws.
Might end having to go eviction route to get him out?
John has made noises that he will "probably rent at first, then have a look about for somewhere to buy".Might end having to go eviction route to get him out?
However, given he has never really lived anywhere else, I feel he has no idea how tenancies work, how long a house sale takes etc etc.
His current two years rent free whilst he saves is something nobody would turn down, of course. Why would you?
It's the sheer bloody-mindedness of not letting anyone in that is worrying me.
I fully expect him to pack his minimal possessions into a case on day 731 and walk away, but then it will probably take the family another year to sell the place, with all the ensuing costs/issues of having an empty property. That's the real issue we are trying to navigate.
You need proper legal advice and the executors need to ask the solicitors for a plan of action, this must be quite a common occurrence. I suspect he'll be entitled to Quiet Enjoyment of the property for the 2 years, so no estate agents or potential purchasers. After that there will likely be a legal route to gain access.
If he remains awkward, it'll make it hard to sell, but not impossible. There are plenty of buyers out there prepared to accept a 40% discount on the value for a bit of flexibility - such as an extended completion date to enable you to remove him once exchange has taken place. Clearly that will negatively impact you all, but no one's going to pay full market price under such circumstances. You all need to accept that you might not be getting the full value. I also doubt that any buyer would complete with him still in occupation, so the solicitors need to advise what options are available to remove him once a sale is agreed.
As for auction, with him still in place, you'll likely see pennies in the £ as it would be a huge risk for any buyer and they'd likely base their purchase price on his life expectancy. Their thought process will be that if you've not managed to remove him, they won't. Akin to advertising an MOT failed car with "simple fix, just needs the £1.50 xxx sensor swapping over".
Please update this thread, I'd be really interested to know how you are able to remove him from the house after the 2 years as my father has something similar in his will. I'm sure a decent solicitor should know the answer.
If he remains awkward, it'll make it hard to sell, but not impossible. There are plenty of buyers out there prepared to accept a 40% discount on the value for a bit of flexibility - such as an extended completion date to enable you to remove him once exchange has taken place. Clearly that will negatively impact you all, but no one's going to pay full market price under such circumstances. You all need to accept that you might not be getting the full value. I also doubt that any buyer would complete with him still in occupation, so the solicitors need to advise what options are available to remove him once a sale is agreed.
As for auction, with him still in place, you'll likely see pennies in the £ as it would be a huge risk for any buyer and they'd likely base their purchase price on his life expectancy. Their thought process will be that if you've not managed to remove him, they won't. Akin to advertising an MOT failed car with "simple fix, just needs the £1.50 xxx sensor swapping over".
Please update this thread, I'd be really interested to know how you are able to remove him from the house after the 2 years as my father has something similar in his will. I'm sure a decent solicitor should know the answer.
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