IVA, proving age of engine then getting a Q

[was8v]

Righto

Bought an unfinished vortex kit

This has the engine and gearbox from a 2003 ST220 Mondeo. I have the original service book but the V5 was scrapped.

After some research I think:

I need to prove it's a 2003 engine for IVA emissions as otherwise they will test to latest emissions. I think I can do this from the engine number and evidence the year with Burton catalogue showing how to interpret.

I originally thought I'd go for an age related plate, but this seems to be impossible if the donor is marked scrapped even if it used to exist.

So I started looking for another cheap Mondeo to swap my engine into before I IVA the kit....faff or another ST220 (rare now). I also thought about fitting a lesser engine for the IVA then swapping later. More faff.

However I read that if I don't bother with age related plates and get a Q, the road tax will be cheaper and MOT only requires visual emissions so the cat can be dropped some time.

Is my understanding correct? Many thanks.

[Steve Dean]

Hi ...... to be 'visible smoke only' the engine would have to be from the 70's. The best route is to get an engine dating certificate from one of the people that issue them and present the certificate to the examiner, then it will be tested to the standard applicable for that year. A good tip is take the car for a voluntary MOT ...... as that will pick up any major items (but not the nit-picky stuff that's checked in the IVA).
I suspect you don't have all the paperwork/invoices for the parts used ( i.e. it's not a 100% new build) therefore you will get a Q plate.
I hope you have downloaded the current IVA manual, and have checked and re-checked everything (particularly with regard to the tests involving radius gauges). As you probably know the test will take about 4 hours and the examination will be very detailed.
I hope it goes well.
Best regards
Steve.

[C-Beams glitter]

Swapping engines on a car isn't as simple as it used to be - you'll need to get a declaration from "a recognised business" to prove the engine has been swapped. Can't just change the number on the V5 and sent it to DVLA any more. A faff.

A 2003 engine will need a CAT (BET) test at IVA, which is their most stringent level anyway, but if you get a Q plate (which sounds inevitable unless you go find another donor V5), then subsequent MOT tests will just be visible smoke.

As far as RFL, all kits are classed as PLG regardless, so it'll be either £210 if under 1549cc or £345 for anything over that.

Caveat..as at time of writing!!

Great advice to get the latest copy of the IVA manual. Thankfully it's a free download these days, it used to be a huge and expensive printed tome.

I've pre-MOTed my builds for a number of reasons - shakedown, get an experienced eye cast over it, some basic sanity checks. The 'downside' is having done that, it triggers the annual MOT test from day 1 so it won't get the 3 year MOT exemption like a 'proper' new car once you register it. Personally, I have absolutely no problem with that - it seems smart to have something 'Fred in his shed' built inspected annually by someone with experience. Other folk seem to get exercised over it. YMMV.

Edited by C-Beams glitter on Thursday 13th February 21:11

[was8v]

C-Beams glitter said:

A 2003 engine will need a CAT (BET) test at IVA, which is their most stringent level anyway, but if you get a Q plate (which sounds inevitable unless you go find another donor V5), then subsequent MOT tests will just be visible smoke.

This is the anomaly I was unsure of. Seems strange the IVA officials will accept an engine number as proof of age of donor engine, but not the DVLA officials.

C-Beams glitter said:

As far as RFL, all kits are classed as PLG regardless, so it'll be either £210 if under 1549cc or £345 for anything over that.

Aha OK thanks.

[was8v]

Steve Dean said:

I suspect you don't have all the paperwork/invoices for the parts used ( i.e. it's not a 100% new build) therefore you will get a Q plate.

My understanding is that it will get an age plate of an engine+trans donor if I had a SORNed V5 that matches the engine number and can show they came from that. But as my V5 is scrapped not SORNed the only route with this engine is a Q, for an age related I will need another donor.

Steve Dean said:

I hope you have downloaded the current IVA manual, and have checked and re-checked everything (particularly with regard to the tests involving radius gauges). As you probably know the test will take about 4 hours and the examination will be very detailed.

Yes, the kit is IVA compliant, just need to make sure the bits I do are!

[CanAm]

Steve Dean said:

Hi ...... to be 'visible smoke only' the engine would have to be from the 70's.

My 1996 kit-built, Rover K series engined Caterham qualified for 'visible smoke only' and no Cat required.

[C-Beams glitter]

CanAm said:

My 1996 kit-built, Rover K series engined Caterham qualified for 'visible smoke only' and no Cat required.

Was that at MOT or IVA??

This flowchart from the IVA manual makes it pretty clear that any engine post August '92 is getting a BET test at IVA.




As for the anomalies between DVLA (registration, MOT & RFL) & DVSA (driving test, vehicle standards compliance), they are very different departments with different rules to apply. Confusing as hell until you realise that!!

[CanAm]

C-Beams glitter said:

Was that at MOT or IVA??

This flowchart from the IVA manual makes it pretty clear that any engine post August '92 is getting a BET test at IVA.


As for the anomalies between DVLA (registration, MOT & RFL) & DVSA (driving test, vehicle standards compliance), they are very different departments with different rules to apply. Confusing as hell until you realise that!!

Before my time unfortunately, but certainly it applied to MOTs. From what I understand, Kit-built cars were CAT exempt up to 31/12/96, so mine jus scraped in.

[C-Beams glitter]

CanAm said:

Before my time unfortunately, but certainly it applied to MOTs. From what I understand, Kit-built cars were CAT exempt up to 31/12/96, so mine jus scraped in.

Depends on ones point of view if you think it's good or bad...but the rules are different for IVA & MOT. The chart snippet shows some of how the assessment is made for an IVA test, that the car has to pass to get registered.

Registration rules then mean you can get a Q (visible smoke at MOT) an age-related plate (test to standard applied to donor car at MOT) or new (test to BET at MOT) No doubt there are many anomalies running around out there like your car, but above is how it works for a new IVA test.

FWIW, I SVA'd a car back in 2001, engine was from a 1986 donor IIRC, it got the old 3.5%/1200HC test applied. It got registered with an age related plate so carried on getting that same test at MOT. That car ended up having 3 different engines put in it, 2 of which would have had to be BET tested at IVA......but it only ever got the 3.5%/1200HC test applied to it at MOT while I had it. Pretty sure it still gets the same now.

We have a car I built in '91, that got a Q plate and it gets visible smoke at MOT despite having an engine swap win 2005 to a more modern engine that would have had to pass a BET at IVA.

Most recent was a car IVA'd in 2021, donor engine was from 1999, it got a BET test at IVA, a Q plate at registration and it gets visible smoke at MOT despite having a CAT and easily passing the BET at IVA. I could remove the CAT if I wanted and it would be fine...but I see no point.

No kit car has emissions data on the V5 so they all get PLG for taxation class. Can't just use the emissions data from the donor car.

[CanAm]

C-Beams glitter said:

Depends on ones point of view if you think it's good or bad...but the rules are different for IVA & MOT. The chart snippet shows some of how the assessment is made for an IVA test, that the car has to pass to get registered.

Registration rules then mean you can get a Q (visible smoke at MOT) an age-related plate (test to standard applied to donor car at MOT) or new (test to BET at MOT) No doubt there are many anomalies running around out there like your car, but above is how it works for a new IVA test.

FWIW, I SVA'd a car back in 2001, engine was from a 1986 donor IIRC, it got the old 3.5%/1200HC test applied. It got registered with an age related plate so carried on getting that same test at MOT. That car ended up having 3 different engines put in it, 2 of which would have had to be BET tested at IVA......but it only ever got the 3.5%/1200HC test applied to it at MOT while I had it. Pretty sure it still gets the same now.

We have a car I built in '91, that got a Q plate and it gets visible smoke at MOT despite having an engine swap win 2005 to a more modern engine that would have had to pass a BET at IVA.

Most recent was a car IVA'd in 2021, donor engine was from 1999, it got a BET test at IVA, a Q plate at registration and it gets visible smoke at MOT despite having a CAT and easily passing the BET at IVA. I could remove the CAT if I wanted and it would be fine...but I see no point.

No kit car has emissions data on the V5 so they all get PLG for taxation class. Can't just use the emissions data from the donor car.

Mine was the best of all worlds, current new plate in 96, no Cat and visible smoke at MoT time.

[C-Beams glitter]

CanAm said:

Mine was the best of all worlds, current new plate in 96, no Cat and visible smoke at MoT time.

Nice!!

[was8v]

OK many thanks all.

To Summarise:

At IVA no point in going to any effort proving age of engine as anything post '92 gets the BET limits anyway

At registration if I have donor V5 (SORN not scrapped) for engine+trans I will get age of engine+trans related plate and need to pass BET emissions at MOT every year

If no donor V5 then I will get Q plate and visual emissions at MOT

Q or age related pay the same road tax.

Easy life = Q, to get age related I'll need another donor V5 and its engine+trans (SORNed this time)

[C-Beams glitter]

Looks about right to the best of my knowledge. One comment re age related registration - you need to get enough 'points' to qualify for that. I forget the criteria, but you need to have a certain minimum number of major parts from the single donor vehicle or it gets a Q anyway.

As an example, my last build had engine, gearbox, some steering from one donor, some suspension from another. No way that was getting an age related plate even had I wanted one (I didn't), despite having the V5 for both donors and all parts being attributable to those donors where serial numbers where present.

Always work from the latest version of the IVA guide:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/iva-man...

And make sure you are working from the 'IVA Manual with basic requirements' section, not the 'Normal IVA Requirements' section at the end.

And finally....best of luck with the project

[chrisch77]

was8v said:

OK many thanks all.

To Summarise:

At IVA no point in going to any effort proving age of engine as anything post '92 gets the BET limits anyway

At registration if I have donor V5 (SORN not scrapped) for engine+trans I will get age of engine+trans related plate and need to pass BET emissions at MOT every year

If no donor V5 then I will get Q plate and visual emissions at MOT

Q or age related pay the same road tax.

Easy life = Q, to get age related I'll need another donor V5 and its engine+trans (SORNed this time)

Correct, or at least this matches my understanding and the Q plate strategy I'm intending to take for my MX5 engined Robin Hood kit build. I bought the engine from an online breaker and even Mazda won't provide any official document to confirm the year of car it came from without having the vehicle VIN.

[TomcatT4]

I made my car in Poland. I also bought the engine in Poland. It was a Fiat TJet engine from a 2010 Fiat Bravo. During the IVA test they checked the emissions and the DVLA gave me a Q plate. I had no problems with insurance, road tax or selling this car back to Poland.