Classic vs modern V12

[adam917k]

Hello. I am hoping people might be able to share some experience to help me decide on a choice of car. I am a lifelong enthusiast in my early 50s and in the fortunate position of being able to buy my first Ferrari, having owned Porsches historically. I think I have narrowed things down to two models - 365 GTC4 and F12. I am fully aware the age gap will bear hugely on the driving experience, but I am unsure which experience will give me more pleasure and was hoping people with experience of both classic and F12 could confirm or challenge my thinking. Use case would be Sunday drives to Goodwood events, car club/breakfast meets, maybe the odd trip into town for lunch, if feeling brave a continental trip to Le Mans classic, European tour. My heart says GTC4 for these reasons:

Colombo V12 - the sound, the smells, the ‘procedure’ of merely starting an old v12 with carbs
Manual - the engagement / interaction of a manual box
Speed - I suspect I may get more enjoyment at lower speeds in the GTC4 as opportunities to properly extend an F12 on the road must be so rare
Attitudes of others - a classic just tends to illicit a better reaction in other people
2+2 - GTC4 has occasional rear seats, so can take kids on short trips
Value - looks like relatively good value given Daytona underpinnings and not likely to lose much value
Tax and Insurance- much more friendly with a classic

….but at the back of my mind are some doubts, mainly related to reliability. I have not owned a true classic for any length of time. With work and family commitments, opportunities to use the car need to be planned. I want a car I can turn up and enjoy without worrying excessively about reliability. Assuming the car is a sound, sorted example to start with what is the reality of running a classic V12 Ferrari really like? Do they need constant fettling, or can you happily leave them on a trickle charger for 2-3 weeks and expect to get in, start up and crack on?

I have not driven either car, but my questions relate more to ownership experience, what gave owners more satisfaction and why. Any thoughts / advice on that front gratefully received. Many thanks.

[SydneyBridge]

Do you have other cars and a garage?
Not driven either but older car every time for me

[MDL111]

I can't help with your exact question.
I love my FF dearly for its usability and the fact it performs without a hitch, but I prefer driving my 1970s 911 (unless it is a long Autobahn trip). Having said that I just drove to Austria to pick up the 911 and the key does not turn, even after spraying WD40 into the ignition .... so, now I am back in Munich without the car.
I really wanted to buy a 512TR a few years ago because I wanted a manual V12 Ferrari. In the end I did not do it and then prices increased (even more), now I can't afford one anymore. As a weekend car I would have one of those over the FF (it is my daily and winter car, so it has a different use case and the price difference is too big now even if I wanted to switch). As a weekend/occasional car I would always choose an older manual car and modern cars are just too fast for me - while I appreciate their breadth of ability, I find them relatively boring to drive on country roads.

[adam917k]

SydneyBridge said:

Do you have other cars and a garage?
Not driven either but older car every time for me

Hello SydneyBridge. I have family cars parked on the street in London but I have managed to rent a double garage with electricity (pretty rare) a few miles away from the house. I have an early r129 500sl, which is a keeper, in one slot and an empty slot next to it waiting to be filled. If I was out in the country with a big old barn I might have be thinking about spreading the budget across a number of interesting cars, but the reality is that we will be in town for the foreseeable future (work and schools), and I probably wouldn’t have time to drive a small collection anyway, so I’m going down the route of one special car.

[SL550M]

OP: Have you thought about a car somewhere in the middle age-wise, such as a 550 Maranello? Gives you plenty of driver engagement and yet modern enough to be somewhat more reliable than a 365. The 550 was my favourite of all the cars I've ever owned. Would love to have another but the good ones are out of reach for me now sadly.

[adam917k]

MDL111 said:

I can't help with your exact question.
I love my FF dearly for its usability and the fact it performs without a hitch, but I prefer driving my 1970s 911 (unless it is a long Autobahn trip). Having said that I just drove to Austria to pick up the 911 and the key does not turn, even after spraying WD40 into the ignition .... so, now I am back in Munich without the car.
I really wanted to buy a 512TR a few years ago because I wanted a manual V12 Ferrari. In the end I did not do it and then prices increased (even more), now I can't afford one anymore. As a weekend car I would have one of those over the FF (it is my daily and winter car, so it has a different use case and the price difference is too big now even if I wanted to switch). As a weekend/occasional car I would always choose an older manual car and modern cars are just too fast for me - while I appreciate their breadth of ability, I find them relatively boring to drive on country roads.

Hello MDL111. Thanks for sharing your views. Early 911 vs 991 GT3 manual is an equivalent nice-to-have conundrum still playing out in my head. Your experience perfectly illustrates the question in my mind. Is the occasional frustration of unreliability more than compensated for by the special feeling when the old cars are working well? Sounds like it is for you? It must be fantastic to daily an FF, but helpful to confirm that at normal road speeds relatively less exciting. 512TR ticks all the boxes, especially the manual bit, so is perhaps a sweet spot as a young classic being easier to live with reliability-wise too. I love that idea, but when I showed it to my other half she said she “didn’t think it was me”. May have to resurrect that idea though….

[MDL111]

adam917k said:

Hello MDL111. Thanks for sharing your views. Early 911 vs 991 GT3 manual is an equivalent nice-to-have conundrum still playing out in my head. Your experience perfectly illustrates the question in my mind. Is the occasional frustration of unreliability more than compensated for by the special feeling when the old cars are working well? Sounds like it is for you? It must be fantastic to daily an FF, but helpful to confirm that at normal road speeds relatively less exciting. 512TR ticks all the boxes, especially the manual bit, so is perhaps a sweet spot as a young classic being easier to live with reliability-wise too. I love that idea, but when I showed it to my other half she said she “didn’t think it was me”. May have to resurrect that idea though….

For now it is definitely worth it to me, I think if I had driven the 911 a few times over winter, it would not have happened. I will probably use it as my semi-daily once I get it running again.
And btw I agree more cars are not great when you can't keep them all at your house or very close by. I already sold a couple and will sell a couple more soon (mainly need the money, but also hardly use them as I always need to go somewhere to switch, which is a hassle if you do not have a lot of time). If I had a house, I would probably drive a different car every day and then it would make sense to have multiple to just experience them all.
As pointed out above, I think the 550 is a good compromise (I nearly bought one when they were 40k) - I think they are really pretty and still quite modern in terms of usability. I wanted the 512 as I wanted a mid-engined car again and I do like the look/"presence" of the car, but I suspect the servicing costs would be quite a bit higher than for a 550.
I think a manual is so important for the overall enjoyment for an occasional car. Even just driving along the Autobahn today in my 996 and heel and toe-ing on shifts etc just made it so much more interactive to me than in a DCT car.

[johnnyreggae]

Based on your username there's always the Count Martini 917K - manual gearbox etc !!

Frivolity aside for get in & go I'm not sure the 365 would deliver - far better a 550 as above or if F1 can work for you 575 before F12 even tho latter 10 years newer

[adam917k]

550 is definitely a good shout, but the 550/575 styling has never done it for me. I’m the opposite of most people in finding the 365/400/412 cars quite attractive. GTC4 also an acquired taste with it’s different coloured nose cone, so put it down to strange taste. I am hoping a couple of people with 365s are going to jump on and tell me they were the most reliable thing they ever owned…..come on…..

[NeilTB]

OP: It’s basically a question of how you’d like to use the car. The older cars are lovely (I’ve be lucky enough to own 308 on carbs & 365 GT4 BB) and should be reliable if properly maintained. However, things like de-misting / aircon / windscreen wipers are also from a different era……. My experience is you’ll drive a more modern Ferrari more simply because it’s easier to live with and can cope with the British weather better, but undoubtedly they aren’t as cool or as ‘special’ (says a current 458 owner)

[MDL111]

there is a former owner on this thread
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

[FFinally]

Dear Adam917k - with advance apologies for not having a direct answer to your question, maybe you could try Autostore - they have both a GTC 4 and an F12 for sale currently (I suspect both for clients) and might be able to help through one of their clients? I keep a car there and bought my F12 through them and they are very helpful generally. I can give you plenty of views on the F12 but alas haven’t driven or owned the GTC4.

[Cheib]

Can’t help with the ownership experience of either but I do own a 70’s 911. It puts a bigger smile on my face when I drive it than anything else I have owned. It’s been very reliable but every year it spends three or four weeks at a garage “having a few bits done”…it’s an old car.

On my car I budget for £3k to £5k of work a year…I’d imagine on a Ferrari with a Columbo V12 things could get expensive very quickly and do you have a specialist anywhere near you that can look after it for you ? Makes a big difference.

[MDL111]

one of the issue nowadays is that hourly rates have gone up so much and some of the stuff on older Ferraris can take a long time, I shudder to think what an engine out service on my old 355 would cost now even at an independent. Probably about half of what I sold it for.

[maura]

Good shout FFinally. I would go Modern if for UK use, if I was living in Italy maybe would go Classic.

[adam917k]

MDL111 said:

there is a former owner on this thread
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

Thanks, I will try to get in touch and see if he is happy to chat

[adam917k]

FFinally said:

Dear Adam917k - with advance apologies for not having a direct answer to your question, maybe you could try Autostore - they have both a GTC 4 and an F12 for sale currently (I suspect both for clients) and might be able to help through one of their clients? I keep a car there and bought my F12 through them and they are very helpful generally. I can give you plenty of views on the F12 but alas haven’t driven or owned the GTC4.

Hi FFinally. I was there on Friday as it happens. Very impressive facility, and the Jonathan was helpful. Mainly looked at the 365, but could we have a chat off-line about your F12 experience? Not sure how that works through the forum. I clicked on some user profiles (not yours) and it just said something along the lines of ‘this user doesn’t accept private messages’ or something like that.

[adam917k]

Cheib said:

Can’t help with the ownership experience of either but I do own a 70’s 911. It puts a bigger smile on my face when I drive it than anything else I have owned. It’s been very reliable but every year it spends three or four weeks at a garage “having a few bits done”…it’s an old car.

On my car I budget for £3k to £5k of work a year…I’d imagine on a Ferrari with a Columbo V12 things could get expensive very quickly and do you have a specialist anywhere near you that can look after it for you ? Makes a big difference.

Can’t go wrong with an old 911, but it feels like now or never for the Ferrari route. I’m south west London, so Barkaways and Rardley are reasonably close, Autofinica even closer and I believe there is a very good specialist in Chessington. I hope one will take pity on me if I take the plunge. Costs another matter of course. I am always comforted and horrified in equal measure leafing through bills in an old Ferrari’s history file. I am, perhaps optimistically, thinking I may be able to do some bits myself. If Ian Tyrell’s carb-tuning videos are anything to go by, all you need is a bit of old hose pipe and your sorted .

[FFinally]

adam917k said:

FFinally said:

Dear Adam917k - with advance apologies for not having a direct answer to your question, maybe you could try Autostore - they have both a GTC 4 and an F12 for sale currently (I suspect both for clients) and might be able to help through one of their clients? I keep a car there and bought my F12 through them and they are very helpful generally. I can give you plenty of views on the F12 but alas haven’t driven or owned the GTC4.

Hi FFinally. I was there on Friday as it happens. Very impressive facility, and the Jonathan was helpful. Mainly looked at the 365, but could we have a chat off-line about your F12 experience? Not sure how that works through the forum. I clicked on some user profiles (not yours) and it just said something along the lines of ‘this user doesn’t accept private messages’ or something like that.

Of course. Let me work out how to message you.

[Fessia fancier]

I was going to suggest a Testarossa in answer to your question but I see you pondered a 512TR. I think that might be a sweet spot
Any reason a 512 BB isn’t on the list (bias admitted!)