Low tech packages middleweights - Japanese bikes in general
Discussion
I've seen things like the new Tenere coming out, The Transalp, V Strom 800 etc (this seems to be a mainly Japanese thing).
What is the deal with the relative lack of tech?
No cruise control, no IMU no hill hold etc etc etc. Yet quickshifters are usually there, so are tft screens....
I get none of this is NEEDED but after you've used it on a bigger bike it sure is missed. The likes of the Tenere have ride by wire so why no cruise?
Is it just a cost thing? "Protecting" the market of the S10, Africa Twin, NT, V Strom 1050 etc etc etc? It's not just the adv style bikes but nakeds as well.
I rode the 800 Strom whilst my 1050 was being serviced and really liked it (felt significantly easier offroad) - but the lack of cruise is a massive no no for replacing a bike used for a lot of long distance work, the same with giving up a safety aid like an IMU.
Are the Japanese not missing a trick here? I remember it before with the VFR1200 - no cruise control on a tourer despite having ride by wire and the technology available and not even traction control on the earlier models.
Just curiosity really. They can obviously do it but why aren't they? I don't think the reliability card can be played here either - this stuffs been around for quite a long time now, you don't really hear of it failing.
What is the deal with the relative lack of tech?
No cruise control, no IMU no hill hold etc etc etc. Yet quickshifters are usually there, so are tft screens....
I get none of this is NEEDED but after you've used it on a bigger bike it sure is missed. The likes of the Tenere have ride by wire so why no cruise?
Is it just a cost thing? "Protecting" the market of the S10, Africa Twin, NT, V Strom 1050 etc etc etc? It's not just the adv style bikes but nakeds as well.
I rode the 800 Strom whilst my 1050 was being serviced and really liked it (felt significantly easier offroad) - but the lack of cruise is a massive no no for replacing a bike used for a lot of long distance work, the same with giving up a safety aid like an IMU.
Are the Japanese not missing a trick here? I remember it before with the VFR1200 - no cruise control on a tourer despite having ride by wire and the technology available and not even traction control on the earlier models.
Just curiosity really. They can obviously do it but why aren't they? I don't think the reliability card can be played here either - this stuffs been around for quite a long time now, you don't really hear of it failing.
All these trinkets cost money, so they don’t get fitted to the ‘cheaper’ mid range bikes although a lot of manufacturers are beginning to as they realise that not everyone wants a top of the range ‘big bike’ but would rather have a 600/800/950 (what does class as a middleweight these days?) but with cruise etc.
Edited by Jazoli on Saturday 19th April 09:24
Does your V-Strom 1050 have hill hold?
Hill hold would be useful for a nightmare junction at the end of the road. It's a dog leg, left, right up a hill with cambers and usually a Transit sized van parked on the right turn obscuring the visibility around the corner. I've had one near miss while I've been driving a car when I've driving past the van and someone is turning right into my road. Neither of us could see through the van.
A young chap offered to let me try his V-Strom 1050 for size in a supermarket car park after I asked how he dealt with the seat height as he was about the same height as me. It didn't feel too bad at all.
After I got off of it he said he'd it lowered 1 inch on the suspension and 1 inch on the seat.
He'd previously had a 650 V-Strom and when I asked how good the headlight on that was, it was the two round lamps one atop the other like a No. 8 model, he said it was very good but lowering that changed the headlamp pattern on the road.
It seemed the aluminium luggage was doing a good job carrying home a decent shop from the supermarket.
He was a youngster who'd toured on both of his previous bikes inc. his 125.
Observations about electronic kit being left off, the new Tiger Sport 800 has Cruise Control a criticism of the Tiger Sport 660 at launch was that the 660 didn't and we have KTM and their charging model that requires extra payment to enable hardware already fitted to the bike. I've spotted the £6199 Duke 790s lastnight but forgotten about the extra money for the KTM bells and whistles.
Hill hold would be useful for a nightmare junction at the end of the road. It's a dog leg, left, right up a hill with cambers and usually a Transit sized van parked on the right turn obscuring the visibility around the corner. I've had one near miss while I've been driving a car when I've driving past the van and someone is turning right into my road. Neither of us could see through the van.
A young chap offered to let me try his V-Strom 1050 for size in a supermarket car park after I asked how he dealt with the seat height as he was about the same height as me. It didn't feel too bad at all.
After I got off of it he said he'd it lowered 1 inch on the suspension and 1 inch on the seat.
He'd previously had a 650 V-Strom and when I asked how good the headlight on that was, it was the two round lamps one atop the other like a No. 8 model, he said it was very good but lowering that changed the headlamp pattern on the road.
It seemed the aluminium luggage was doing a good job carrying home a decent shop from the supermarket.
He was a youngster who'd toured on both of his previous bikes inc. his 125.
Observations about electronic kit being left off, the new Tiger Sport 800 has Cruise Control a criticism of the Tiger Sport 660 at launch was that the 660 didn't and we have KTM and their charging model that requires extra payment to enable hardware already fitted to the bike. I've spotted the £6199 Duke 790s lastnight but forgotten about the extra money for the KTM bells and whistles.
Clearly to me they are just differentiating models to preserve the bigger priced premium bike sales.
Saying that, I can't say I've missed anything other than maybe cruise control on my Transalp vs more tech focused premium bikes I own/have had.
Most of these things like hill hold assist, TPMS, auto light dipping, radar cruise control, electronic suspension, ride height lowering at stop devices etc are all answers to questions I have never asked. Just needless complication that drives up the prices, reduces reliability and ups complexity. If you buy and keep bikes rather than PCP change them every few years then they are mainly just potential aggro.
In the old days, it was the power and weight stats that were the pub chat top trump b
ks of bikers. Now it's just flipped to pointless tech one-up manship. "I simply must be able to see my tyre pressures on the move and I absolutely wouldn't be without my corner sensitive lighting. Oh and whatever did I do without my hill hold assist on a hill before that existed? I'm surprised I'm still alive!"
There's definitely a reason beyond price that these middleweights are so popular now. I think for many, speccing a 270kg GSA to £28k every 3 years is the new 'buying a new R1/GSXR/ZXR every 2 years' of the 90s and 00s.
Saying that, I can't say I've missed anything other than maybe cruise control on my Transalp vs more tech focused premium bikes I own/have had.
Most of these things like hill hold assist, TPMS, auto light dipping, radar cruise control, electronic suspension, ride height lowering at stop devices etc are all answers to questions I have never asked. Just needless complication that drives up the prices, reduces reliability and ups complexity. If you buy and keep bikes rather than PCP change them every few years then they are mainly just potential aggro.
In the old days, it was the power and weight stats that were the pub chat top trump b
ks of bikers. Now it's just flipped to pointless tech one-up manship. "I simply must be able to see my tyre pressures on the move and I absolutely wouldn't be without my corner sensitive lighting. Oh and whatever did I do without my hill hold assist on a hill before that existed? I'm surprised I'm still alive!"There's definitely a reason beyond price that these middleweights are so popular now. I think for many, speccing a 270kg GSA to £28k every 3 years is the new 'buying a new R1/GSXR/ZXR every 2 years' of the 90s and 00s.
I think it's a couple of things
They try to keep the RRP as low as possible to be competitive (letting you add it as a costly option)
They only fit certain items to halo models so you have to buy the really expensive bike
Off-Road many of us prefer a simpler bike, the less crap the better, although I suspect we are in the vast minority but many seem to want the off-road image
I'm interested to see how the Chinese shake up the market with CF Moto, Kove etc not only have seemingly decent products but eager to listen to customer feedback
They try to keep the RRP as low as possible to be competitive (letting you add it as a costly option)
They only fit certain items to halo models so you have to buy the really expensive bike
Off-Road many of us prefer a simpler bike, the less crap the better, although I suspect we are in the vast minority but many seem to want the off-road image
I'm interested to see how the Chinese shake up the market with CF Moto, Kove etc not only have seemingly decent products but eager to listen to customer feedback
Cruise control is an unforgivable ommision on any bike with an electronic throttle and abs. It is literally a couple of 50p pushbuttons and some lines of code in the software for the manufacturer to impliment.
Its omission has to be purely as a means to force you to buy a more expensive bike you otherwise wouldnt have chosen. Aftermarket throttle locks make life easier for long motorway stints though, but not having brake/clutch override isnt ideal.
Its omission has to be purely as a means to force you to buy a more expensive bike you otherwise wouldnt have chosen. Aftermarket throttle locks make life easier for long motorway stints though, but not having brake/clutch override isnt ideal.
Edited by OldGermanHeaps on Saturday 19th April 12:24
Jazoli said:
All these trinkets cost money, so they don’t get fitted to the ‘cheaper’ mid range bikes although a lot of manufacturers are beginning to as they realise that not everyone wants a top of the range ‘big bike’ but would rather have a 600/800/950 (what does class as a middleweight these days?) but with cruise etc.
That's my point though. The euro brands ARE fitting that tech to lower cc bikes....Edited by Jazoli on Saturday 19th April 09:24
carinaman said:
Does your V-Strom 1050 have hill hold?
Hill hold would be useful for a nightmare junction at the end of the road. It's a dog leg, left, right up a hill with cambers and usually a Transit sized van parked on the right turn obscuring the visibility around the corner. I've had one near miss while I've been driving a car when I've driving past the van and someone is turning right into my road. Neither of us could see through the van.
A young chap offered to let me try his V-Strom 1050 for size in a supermarket car park after I asked how he dealt with the seat height as he was about the same height as me. It didn't feel too bad at all.
After I got off of it he said he'd it lowered 1 inch on the suspension and 1 inch on the seat.
He'd previously had a 650 V-Strom and when I asked how good the headlight on that was, it was the two round lamps one atop the other like a No. 8 model, he said it was very good but lowering that changed the headlamp pattern on the road.
It seemed the aluminium luggage was doing a good job carrying home a decent shop from the supermarket.
He was a youngster who'd toured on both of his previous bikes inc. his 125.
Observations about electronic kit being left off, the new Tiger Sport 800 has Cruise Control a criticism of the Tiger Sport 660 at launch was that the 660 didn't and we have KTM and their charging model that requires extra payment to enable hardware already fitted to the bike. I've spotted the £6199 Duke 790s lastnight but forgotten about the extra money for the KTM bells and whistles.
Yeah mine has hill hold. Didn't think id need it but it can be useful.Hill hold would be useful for a nightmare junction at the end of the road. It's a dog leg, left, right up a hill with cambers and usually a Transit sized van parked on the right turn obscuring the visibility around the corner. I've had one near miss while I've been driving a car when I've driving past the van and someone is turning right into my road. Neither of us could see through the van.
A young chap offered to let me try his V-Strom 1050 for size in a supermarket car park after I asked how he dealt with the seat height as he was about the same height as me. It didn't feel too bad at all.
After I got off of it he said he'd it lowered 1 inch on the suspension and 1 inch on the seat.
He'd previously had a 650 V-Strom and when I asked how good the headlight on that was, it was the two round lamps one atop the other like a No. 8 model, he said it was very good but lowering that changed the headlamp pattern on the road.
It seemed the aluminium luggage was doing a good job carrying home a decent shop from the supermarket.
He was a youngster who'd toured on both of his previous bikes inc. his 125.
Observations about electronic kit being left off, the new Tiger Sport 800 has Cruise Control a criticism of the Tiger Sport 660 at launch was that the 660 didn't and we have KTM and their charging model that requires extra payment to enable hardware already fitted to the bike. I've spotted the £6199 Duke 790s lastnight but forgotten about the extra money for the KTM bells and whistles.
3DP said:
Clearly to me they are just differentiating models to preserve the bigger priced premium bike sales.
Saying that, I can't say I've missed anything other than maybe cruise control on my Transalp vs more tech focused premium bikes I own/have had.
Most of these things like hill hold assist, TPMS, auto light dipping, radar cruise control, electronic suspension, ride height lowering at stop devices etc are all answers to questions I have never asked. Just needless complication that drives up the prices, reduces reliability and ups complexity. If you buy and keep bikes rather than PCP change them every few years then they are mainly just potential aggro.
In the old days, it was the power and weight stats that were the pub chat top trump bks of bikers. Now it's just flipped to pointless tech one-up manship. "I simply must be able to see my tyre pressures on the move and I absolutely wouldn't be without my corner sensitive lighting. Oh and whatever did I do without my hill hold assist on a hill before that existed? I'm surprised I'm still alive!"
There's definitely a reason beyond price that these middleweights are so popular now. I think for many, speccing a 270kg GSA to £28k every 3 years is the new 'buying a new R1/GSXR/ZXR every 2 years' of the 90s and 00s.
Hardly. Some of us would just like the creature comforts/rider aids of the bigger bikes on stuff that's more manageable off road. I'd like to do more offroading in the future. That either means getting a relatively small, light single like a CRF so I keep my 1050 for touring and longer runs or swapping to something that's more of a middleweight with the tech I want for touring - which doesn't exist in the Japanese sector.Saying that, I can't say I've missed anything other than maybe cruise control on my Transalp vs more tech focused premium bikes I own/have had.
Most of these things like hill hold assist, TPMS, auto light dipping, radar cruise control, electronic suspension, ride height lowering at stop devices etc are all answers to questions I have never asked. Just needless complication that drives up the prices, reduces reliability and ups complexity. If you buy and keep bikes rather than PCP change them every few years then they are mainly just potential aggro.
In the old days, it was the power and weight stats that were the pub chat top trump b
ks of bikers. Now it's just flipped to pointless tech one-up manship. "I simply must be able to see my tyre pressures on the move and I absolutely wouldn't be without my corner sensitive lighting. Oh and whatever did I do without my hill hold assist on a hill before that existed? I'm surprised I'm still alive!"There's definitely a reason beyond price that these middleweights are so popular now. I think for many, speccing a 270kg GSA to £28k every 3 years is the new 'buying a new R1/GSXR/ZXR every 2 years' of the 90s and 00s.
I hardly think basic cruise control is a big ask on a 10k bike like a Tenere fgs....
And what about all these aging bikers who will soon want to be lowering their weight - i can't see that many being tempted by LESS tech than they're used to - especially one that's been around for decades.
KTMsm said:
I think it's a couple of things
They try to keep the RRP as low as possible to be competitive (letting you add it as a costly option)
They only fit certain items to halo models so you have to buy the really expensive bike
Off-Road many of us prefer a simpler bike, the less crap the better, although I suspect we are in the vast minority but many seem to want the off-road image
I'm interested to see how the Chinese shake up the market with CF Moto, Kove etc not only have seemingly decent products but eager to listen to customer feedback
This is another thing though. Avg age of bikers is getting higher. Will they want to be forgoing things like cruise control (let's be honest here, arthritis IS a thing for a lot of people) when they need to switch down to a more manageable bike? They try to keep the RRP as low as possible to be competitive (letting you add it as a costly option)
They only fit certain items to halo models so you have to buy the really expensive bike
Off-Road many of us prefer a simpler bike, the less crap the better, although I suspect we are in the vast minority but many seem to want the off-road image
I'm interested to see how the Chinese shake up the market with CF Moto, Kove etc not only have seemingly decent products but eager to listen to customer feedback
Maybe it WILL only happen if they start to lose market share. The Chinese seem to be getting it.
I’ve got a lap timer , bliper , quick shifter , different modes , rain / sport etc & have used none of it , I believe some of it / all of it needs enabling / setting up , I’ve not got a clue how you do it , I get enough trouble with my phone .
I’m quite happy as bike is , nephew had bike for day & apparently used everything , loved the lap timer , though why you’d use it on the road I’ve no idea .
I think it’s an age thing , kids love there gadgets / toys , they understand this type of technology more as they grew up with it .
I’m quite happy as bike is , nephew had bike for day & apparently used everything , loved the lap timer , though why you’d use it on the road I’ve no idea .
I think it’s an age thing , kids love there gadgets / toys , they understand this type of technology more as they grew up with it .
Gas1883 said:
I’ve got a lap timer , bliper , quick shifter , different modes , rain / sport etc & have used none of it , I believe some of it / all of it needs enabling / setting up , I’ve not got a clue how you do it , I get enough trouble with my phone .
I’m quite happy as bike is , nephew had bike for day & apparently used everything , loved the lap timer , though why you’d use it on the road I’ve no idea .
I think it’s an age thing , kids love there gadgets / toys , they understand this type of technology more as they grew up with it .
I get that you might find switching modes too difficult, or not necessary, although I think it’s a good thing that I use, especially when it’s wet. But, why wouldn’t you use a quick shifter if it’s fitted?I’m quite happy as bike is , nephew had bike for day & apparently used everything , loved the lap timer , though why you’d use it on the road I’ve no idea .
I think it’s an age thing , kids love there gadgets / toys , they understand this type of technology more as they grew up with it .
I spoke to Yamaha Europe’s product chap on the 2025 Tenere launch, specifically about the omission of cruise control. He said they surveyed existing owners and it was barely in the top 15 changes that owners requested, and they focused on the top 5 things. Also made noises about keeping the Tenere as simple as possible. I got the sense they reluctantly went to ride-by-wire purely for future emissions regs. Likewise, the new TC system is purely a road system, they want you to deactivate it when you’re off-road.
KTMsm said:
I think this is the "Everyone thinks that everyone else is like them"
I've never had and never wanted cruise control but I don't commute and the entire point of motorcycling to me is to enjoy the ride so I don't ride on motorways (the odd junction is unavoidable)
After using cruise control I'd really miss it if it wasn't there. I've never had and never wanted cruise control but I don't commute and the entire point of motorcycling to me is to enjoy the ride so I don't ride on motorways (the odd junction is unavoidable)
OldGermanHeaps said:
Cruise control is an unforgivable ommision on any bike with an electronic throttle and abs. It is literally a couple of 50p pushbuttons and some lines of code in the software for the manufacturer to impliment.
Its omission has to be purely as a means to force you to buy a more expensive bike you otherwise wouldnt have chosen. Aftermarket throttle locks make life easier for long motorway stints though, but not having brake/clutch override isnt ideal.
I've not tried them myself, but I've seen plug and play aftermarket "proper" cruise control for bikes now. I was considering it for my Himalayan 450. it was about £450 or so.Its omission has to be purely as a means to force you to buy a more expensive bike you otherwise wouldnt have chosen. Aftermarket throttle locks make life easier for long motorway stints though, but not having brake/clutch override isnt ideal.
Edited by OldGermanHeaps on Saturday 19th April 12:24
Cabbage Patch said:
I get that you might find switching modes too difficult, or not necessary, although I think it’s a good thing that I use, especially when it’s wet. But, why wouldn’t you use a quick shifter if it’s fitted?
I find it easy enough pulling the clutch lever to change gear to be honest , I’ve never had one before so I don’t really miss it , but maybe one day I’ll try it .Modes are similar , bike feels fine in standard mode , I don’t really think I need sport , it’s not going out in rain , so no need for tain mode , can’t remember other mode .
It’s like the lap timer , I can’t see me ever using it .
I can see what op said , I’d be just as happy with the basic bike without all this extra stuff .
It more my nephews type of bike , he loves all this stuff , I guess there’s the argument of why buy a bike with all that stuff on if you’re not going to use it , I never really thought about it , I just like the bike .
I can’t see it but maybe one day I’ll come back and say I’ve used it & it’s great , we will see .
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