Discussion
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Well we all kind of knew how US/UK/our 'allies' (no doubt Israel will have its dirty little hands in the pie as well) have funded/formed Al-Qaeda/ISIS and many more terrorist organisations all these years to carry out terrorist acts around the world, but did they really not realise the chicken would come home to roost with how the west has/is detoriating?
Let's be honest, the UK have benefited from this for centuries, so we're obviously going to bury our heads under the sand and play dumb but the reality is playtimes over. We're in for a world of hurt. Good luck everyone
.
Well we all kind of knew how US/UK/our 'allies' (no doubt Israel will have its dirty little hands in the pie as well) have funded/formed Al-Qaeda/ISIS and many more terrorist organisations all these years to carry out terrorist acts around the world, but did they really not realise the chicken would come home to roost with how the west has/is detoriating?
Let's be honest, the UK have benefited from this for centuries, so we're obviously going to bury our heads under the sand and play dumb but the reality is playtimes over. We're in for a world of hurt. Good luck everyone
. Yup, can you point me to a government/ country that does not fund and support foreign groups that align with their interests?
Most of the groups funded by the "Evil west" have been in direct response to USSR/ Russia/ China funding their own groups.
The world is not that nice a place, never going to change that.
Most of the groups funded by the "Evil west" have been in direct response to USSR/ Russia/ China funding their own groups.
The world is not that nice a place, never going to change that.
Edited by nikaiyo2 on Thursday 1st May 12:57
Well yes, after all ISIS, Al-Queada, are, if not literally, the Children of the Mujahideen (which translates as a person performing Jihad). Who the US especially funded to fight the Soviets when they invaded Afghanistan. The Russian and China funded the Vietcong.
History, which I really don't know enough about, is really important when you want to consider the how's and whys of Evil people and what you're told.
During the Cold War it was easy, we lapped up TV and Films as we still do, the Soviets were Evil and they hated us, because... because we weren't? Or something like that, anyway. We hated them and they hated us, so we fought proxy wars with Asians doing the killing and dying. Live was simple, as long as you were in the West or the East and not stuck in the middle.
We've been f
king around, invading, killing and enslaving via one tin pot dictator or another Asia for centuries, but this current nasty mess all started in 1945 when Churchill, Roosevelt and Stalin met and carved up the World between themselves. The Russian Iron Curtain might have been more obvious to us, but the way the West controlled our 'turf' was just as effective.
There are a lot of people in the UK now to seem to want to sit atop the cliffs of Dover with machine guns to defend against a "Muslim Invasion" imagine how they'd feel if Iraq installed an 'Iraq friendly Prime Minister' for a few decades, and dropped thousands of bombs on our cities if they stopped being quiet so friendly? Drove tanks up and down our streets, killed thousands of civilians "oops, Collateral damage" and even made films about Iraqi heroes who almost got killed in battle, but phew it's okay, we killed hundreds of Brits and destroyed dozens of buildings in the end, so it was okay.
Arming and supporting the 'Enemy of our Enemy' is bad and often leads to lots of problems due to the Law of Unintended Consequences, but that's only a Symptom of the core problem. We have been so power hungry and addicted to oil that we cause huge problems in the counties we fk around in, that we find out when a few of them manage to get a dig back in.
History, which I really don't know enough about, is really important when you want to consider the how's and whys of Evil people and what you're told.
During the Cold War it was easy, we lapped up TV and Films as we still do, the Soviets were Evil and they hated us, because... because we weren't? Or something like that, anyway. We hated them and they hated us, so we fought proxy wars with Asians doing the killing and dying. Live was simple, as long as you were in the West or the East and not stuck in the middle.
We've been f
king around, invading, killing and enslaving via one tin pot dictator or another Asia for centuries, but this current nasty mess all started in 1945 when Churchill, Roosevelt and Stalin met and carved up the World between themselves. The Russian Iron Curtain might have been more obvious to us, but the way the West controlled our 'turf' was just as effective.There are a lot of people in the UK now to seem to want to sit atop the cliffs of Dover with machine guns to defend against a "Muslim Invasion" imagine how they'd feel if Iraq installed an 'Iraq friendly Prime Minister' for a few decades, and dropped thousands of bombs on our cities if they stopped being quiet so friendly? Drove tanks up and down our streets, killed thousands of civilians "oops, Collateral damage" and even made films about Iraqi heroes who almost got killed in battle, but phew it's okay, we killed hundreds of Brits and destroyed dozens of buildings in the end, so it was okay.
Arming and supporting the 'Enemy of our Enemy' is bad and often leads to lots of problems due to the Law of Unintended Consequences, but that's only a Symptom of the core problem. We have been so power hungry and addicted to oil that we cause huge problems in the counties we f
k around in, that we find out when a few of them manage to get a dig back in. P-Jay with a logical and coherent post there, but at some point the tit for tat has to stop or the cycle continues. So much of this is based on someone responding to an injustice, that was itself a response to an injustice, that was itself...
Look at the whole Palestine/Israel situation. So many horrific deeds have been done that it's easy to point out the goodies and baddies if you set a very tight window of time or location. But as soon as you widen that view to look at a broader context it's really not possible to paint anyone as the oppressed. But, so many stick their head in an echo chamber; one of my relatives (Muslim, goes on various Muslim soshul meejas) has gone from "Free Palestine" to "Israel are evil" to just being openly anti-Semitic now. I've given up on talking to her.
Look at the whole Palestine/Israel situation. So many horrific deeds have been done that it's easy to point out the goodies and baddies if you set a very tight window of time or location. But as soon as you widen that view to look at a broader context it's really not possible to paint anyone as the oppressed. But, so many stick their head in an echo chamber; one of my relatives (Muslim, goes on various Muslim soshul meejas) has gone from "Free Palestine" to "Israel are evil" to just being openly anti-Semitic now. I've given up on talking to her.
P-Jay said:
We've been fking around, invading, killing and enslaving via one tin pot dictator or another Asia for centuries, but this current nasty mess all started in 1945 when Churchill, Roosevelt and Stalin met and carved up the World between themselves. The Russian Iron Curtain might have been more obvious to us, but the way the West controlled our 'turf' was just as effective.
Re bit in bold, not quite correct. Those conferences established how Germany would be divied up, rather than the world. Modern middle east geopolitics has its roots in the Ottoman Empire and how that was sliced up by us and the French following WW1, in the Sykes-Picot agreement. king around, invading, killing and enslaving via one tin pot dictator or another Asia for centuries, but this current nasty mess all started in 1945 when Churchill, Roosevelt and Stalin met and carved up the World between themselves. The Russian Iron Curtain might have been more obvious to us, but the way the West controlled our 'turf' was just as effective.For millennia it has always been the strong will rule the world until they stop being the strong and someone else takes over. The “west” has had its golden age of world domination and it’s desperately trying to hang on. It’s cyclic… we no longer dictate to the world how they should live, we are what we are because we exploited other people and other countries, that’s historical fact. Not because we are a nicer type of people but because we had the military might and technology to impose our views and ransack others to our benefit, even if at times that was done in a soft way.
It’s all an hypocrisy… this West vs East… who are the bad guys? What does being a bad guy mean in an historical sense?
It’s all an hypocrisy… this West vs East… who are the bad guys? What does being a bad guy mean in an historical sense?
Lannister902 said:
https://vm.tiktok.com/ZNdjSc8jt/
Well we all kind of knew how US/UK/our 'allies' (no doubt Israel will have its dirty little hands in the pie as well) have funded/formed Al-Qaeda/ISIS and many more terrorist organisations all these years to carry out terrorist acts around the world, but did they really not realise the chicken would come home to roost with how the west has/is detoriating?
Let's be honest, the UK have benefited from this for centuries, so we're obviously going to bury our heads under the sand and play dumb but the reality is playtimes over. We're in for a world of hurt. Good luck everyone.
I'm not sure those that make the decisions to fund and encourage terrorist, have paid any price ? The general populations of the west have (through taxation, immigration, terrorist attacks, killed and wounded soldiers, and general removal of freedoms) but have the elite 'warmongers' seen any downside.Well we all kind of knew how US/UK/our 'allies' (no doubt Israel will have its dirty little hands in the pie as well) have funded/formed Al-Qaeda/ISIS and many more terrorist organisations all these years to carry out terrorist acts around the world, but did they really not realise the chicken would come home to roost with how the west has/is detoriating?
Let's be honest, the UK have benefited from this for centuries, so we're obviously going to bury our heads under the sand and play dumb but the reality is playtimes over. We're in for a world of hurt. Good luck everyone
. If anything the last 20 years probably shown many governments just how much they can get away with.
Re. the CW background, keep in mind the West's CW aspiration; to hold the line against an ideological proselytising opposite number who was catholic in method, endlessly opportunistic and whose ultimate goal was a world in its own grim, authoritarian, command economy image. Well, the ultimately goal was notionally socialist utopia, but we're talking about the 50s and later, by which time the grandees of the communist world had made peace with that being a forever-ever pipedream.
The Eastern bloc was also *very effective* at keeping its catches - "defending against counter revolution" as it would have had it - so you should forgive the west for pursuing strategies that emphasised the de-risking of communist capture above all else.
To that end, while the west (ehem, US) liked "its guys" to be institutionally robust, liberal and democratic (see: western Europe, Can, Aus, etc) - but if your option was between a wobbly, immature, left-leaning, entryist-riddled democracy or a rock solid, commi-hating generalissimo - then Senor Big Hat was always going to be the front-runner. We tend to characterise coups along those lines as "happy joy-joy democracy killed by bad ol' CIA because bananas or some-such", but the above is closer to the real geopolitical consideration.
About a generation ago (probably still in secondary comprehensive textbooks...) it was fashionable to almost lampoon the likes of Ike, Bundy, Dulles, etc as paranoid, violently over-reacting CWWs and suggest the USSR and its allies were goons rendered harmless by incompetence and a disparity of resources. But we're largely past that now and appreciate that the fight, though suppressed below the level high intensity conflict, was one in which two competent opponents had their shoulder ever to the wheel.
The Eastern bloc was also *very effective* at keeping its catches - "defending against counter revolution" as it would have had it - so you should forgive the west for pursuing strategies that emphasised the de-risking of communist capture above all else.
To that end, while the west (ehem, US) liked "its guys" to be institutionally robust, liberal and democratic (see: western Europe, Can, Aus, etc) - but if your option was between a wobbly, immature, left-leaning, entryist-riddled democracy or a rock solid, commi-hating generalissimo - then Senor Big Hat was always going to be the front-runner. We tend to characterise coups along those lines as "happy joy-joy democracy killed by bad ol' CIA because bananas or some-such", but the above is closer to the real geopolitical consideration.
About a generation ago (probably still in secondary comprehensive textbooks...) it was fashionable to almost lampoon the likes of Ike, Bundy, Dulles, etc as paranoid, violently over-reacting CWWs and suggest the USSR and its allies were goons rendered harmless by incompetence and a disparity of resources. But we're largely past that now and appreciate that the fight, though suppressed below the level high intensity conflict, was one in which two competent opponents had their shoulder ever to the wheel.
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