Fair treatment of an apprentice
Discussion
Sorry for the rant, I'm a little upset and angry about this.
My son, at 17 secured an engineering apprenticeship which started in early April, working for a business specialising in rebuild / reconditioning of cylinder heads.
In the last 2 years he has lost 5 people who he was very close to, the last one being his best friend who was killed in a horrific car accident a couple of months ago.
He is suffering from this, has been brave enough to admit it and counselling is being arranged that will take place outside of working hours.
Last week he took a day off his apprenticeship as he was in a really bad place, he apologised and redoubled his efforts.
Up to this point he was never late, never a bad word said about him, highly complimentary about his work ethics and the quality of his work - allegedly the best apprentice that they had ever had.
This morning, as always, he was at work 30 mins early, as he has been every morning and mid-morning he was told that "for his own good" his apprenticeship is being terminated with immediate effect.
Mental health - be kind, be understanding - do not treat a fellow human being like this.
He is distraught, feels like he has let everyone down.
Despite this he has turned up at the training centre and gone in for a chat and to see what he / they can do to get him through this and into another apprenticeship - I'd say that was a massively positive and pro-active thing for a 17 year old to do.
He just wants to work, to learn and to stand on his own two feet and become the best person / employee he can - surely employers want this kind of person on their books.
His training provider are being brilliant and have said that they will do whatever they can to get him into another apprenticeship.
How can this be allowed to happen in this day and age. I appreciate businesses are a commercial operation but this just seems completely brutal, in many ways I am glad he is out of there as clearly not an employer who have employees wellbeing as a consideration but he is not seeing like this for understandable reasons - he just feels like a complete failure.
I'm really scared of the negative impact that this will have on him
My son, at 17 secured an engineering apprenticeship which started in early April, working for a business specialising in rebuild / reconditioning of cylinder heads.
In the last 2 years he has lost 5 people who he was very close to, the last one being his best friend who was killed in a horrific car accident a couple of months ago.
He is suffering from this, has been brave enough to admit it and counselling is being arranged that will take place outside of working hours.
Last week he took a day off his apprenticeship as he was in a really bad place, he apologised and redoubled his efforts.
Up to this point he was never late, never a bad word said about him, highly complimentary about his work ethics and the quality of his work - allegedly the best apprentice that they had ever had.
This morning, as always, he was at work 30 mins early, as he has been every morning and mid-morning he was told that "for his own good" his apprenticeship is being terminated with immediate effect.
Mental health - be kind, be understanding - do not treat a fellow human being like this.
He is distraught, feels like he has let everyone down.
Despite this he has turned up at the training centre and gone in for a chat and to see what he / they can do to get him through this and into another apprenticeship - I'd say that was a massively positive and pro-active thing for a 17 year old to do.
He just wants to work, to learn and to stand on his own two feet and become the best person / employee he can - surely employers want this kind of person on their books.
His training provider are being brilliant and have said that they will do whatever they can to get him into another apprenticeship.
How can this be allowed to happen in this day and age. I appreciate businesses are a commercial operation but this just seems completely brutal, in many ways I am glad he is out of there as clearly not an employer who have employees wellbeing as a consideration but he is not seeing like this for understandable reasons - he just feels like a complete failure.
I'm really scared of the negative impact that this will have on him
blueg33 said:
What a horrible scenario. Did the company give any reasons? I'm wondering if there is any statutory protection?
Yes, for the "good of his mental health" they felt it best that he leave immediately.I always felt slightly uncomfortable that the offshoot of the main business he was working in had one employee and three apprentices - this workshop was where all the cylinder head rebuilds were taking place, the main business was the workshop few miles away.
Son was loving it, it was old school engineering but perhaps it was little more than a sweatshop where young apprentices were being taken advantage of
Was he under a Contract of Apprenticeship or an Apprenticeship Agreement? His rights may be different on each, though he should not have been dismissed without a disciplinary procedure being followed.
However, I guess the first thing to figure out is if he’d even want to go back anyway.
However, I guess the first thing to figure out is if he’d even want to go back anyway.
It's unfortunate that his first experience of an employer is a bad one- a similar thing happened with my daughter last year. Fortunately she quickly found another job that was way better and turned a bad experience into a good one. among other things it's taught her that she doesn't have to accept these things as fate and she can take charge of her career. It sounds like your son will do the same.
Onwards and upwards.
I'm not sure what, if any compensation they could be held be liable for, but if it's looking like it might be a long drawn out battle, it may be best for your son's mental health just to forget about them and put it down to experience. In the meantime- make sure you let everyone know where they shouldn't get their engines rebuilt.
Onwards and upwards.
I'm not sure what, if any compensation they could be held be liable for, but if it's looking like it might be a long drawn out battle, it may be best for your son's mental health just to forget about them and put it down to experience. In the meantime- make sure you let everyone know where they shouldn't get their engines rebuilt.
Blackpuddin said:
Sounds like they've done him a favour, poor lad. Hope he gets into something similar (but less exploitative) in short order. I wouldn't be surprised if someone on PH offers him something via yourself.
Would be incredible if someone picked up on this and was able to help him. He started to learn to weld at college last week and his assessor was blown away - apparently will become a very good Mig welder very quickly. He, within 4 weeks was turning around dozens of cylinder heads per week and taking huge pride in what he was doing - this has shattered him though.His mental health is being tested at the moment, the death of his best friend was in pretty horrific circumstances that someone very kindly shared with him in great detail (!!!) has hit him hard but he has accepted he needs a bit of help and as a family we are supporting him and getting him that help
GuigiaroBertone said:
It's unfortunate that his first experience of an employer is a bad one- a similar thing happened with my daughter last year. Fortunately she quickly found another job that was way better and turned a bad experience into a good one. among other things it's taught her that she doesn't have to accept these things as fate and she can take charge of her career. It sounds like your son will do the same.
Onwards and upwards.
I'm not sure what, if any compensation they could be held be liable for, but if it's looking like it might be a long drawn out battle, it may be best for your son's mental health just to forget about them and put it down to experience. In the meantime- make sure you let everyone know where they shouldn't get their engines rebuilt.
I do not want them to simply get away with it but that will become my own personal little battle. Would love to name and shame and I will on other platforms but obviously against PH rulesOnwards and upwards.
I'm not sure what, if any compensation they could be held be liable for, but if it's looking like it might be a long drawn out battle, it may be best for your son's mental health just to forget about them and put it down to experience. In the meantime- make sure you let everyone know where they shouldn't get their engines rebuilt.
What an awful situation
A sage lesson for your son that, unfortunately, there are a complete a
holes in the world and, hopefully rarely, one encounters them.
The good news is he's young, so plenty of time to re-group and get into something else. In time, he'll look back at his lucky escape.
For now, support him as you have done and let him focus on getting better. He has all the time in the world to focus on his career.
A sage lesson for your son that, unfortunately, there are a complete a
holes in the world and, hopefully rarely, one encounters them.The good news is he's young, so plenty of time to re-group and get into something else. In time, he'll look back at his lucky escape.
For now, support him as you have done and let him focus on getting better. He has all the time in the world to focus on his career.
Pretty appalling behaviour, but I'm not surprised. Many engineering businesses are stuck in the dark ages with how to behave in the workplace, or how to treat employees.
A friends son went to work as an apprentice in a large local engineering place. He is a quiet, polite, diligent, intelligent type. Has absolutely zero interest in mucking about, workplace 'jokes', or anything like that. Just wants to learn and do a good job. Like the OP's son, he would turn up early, work hard, and go home. Because he was like that, he got the piss taken out of him, bullied, jokes played on him, sprayed with water, and all that sort of stuff. One day they ripped his clothes off him, and shink wrapped him to a pallet on a forklift.
That was the final straw, and he asked his manager/supervisor for a quiet word the next day, and said he loved the work, liked the place, but the hazing/bullying was really getting to him and he hated it. An hour later, he's shouted at by the CEO to get in his office. The CEO then tells him that if he doesn't like he can "fk OFF out of here right now and never come back" and then gives him some patronising lecture about how you need to be 'tough' to work in engineering, and if he can't take it, then he can fk off and work in Tescos 
The lad walked out and got the bus home, and when his Dad went back the next day to collect his toolbox, it was basically destroyed. looked like it had been kicked all round the yard when they threw it out, literally.
When will people grow the fk up?
A friends son went to work as an apprentice in a large local engineering place. He is a quiet, polite, diligent, intelligent type. Has absolutely zero interest in mucking about, workplace 'jokes', or anything like that. Just wants to learn and do a good job. Like the OP's son, he would turn up early, work hard, and go home. Because he was like that, he got the piss taken out of him, bullied, jokes played on him, sprayed with water, and all that sort of stuff. One day they ripped his clothes off him, and shink wrapped him to a pallet on a forklift.
That was the final straw, and he asked his manager/supervisor for a quiet word the next day, and said he loved the work, liked the place, but the hazing/bullying was really getting to him and he hated it. An hour later, he's shouted at by the CEO to get in his office. The CEO then tells him that if he doesn't like he can "f
k OFF out of here right now and never come back" and then gives him some patronising lecture about how you need to be 'tough' to work in engineering, and if he can't take it, then he can fk off and work in Tescos The lad walked out and got the bus home, and when his Dad went back the next day to collect his toolbox, it was basically destroyed. looked like it had been kicked all round the yard when they threw it out, literally.
When will people grow the f
k up?I was speaking to a client only the other week who was telling me that it's hard to get rid of apprentices.
So I'm surprised this outfit have managed it so easily.
I expect in the long-term he's had a lucky escape. But I appreciate it will be hard for him to see it that way right now.
Fingers crossed something better turns up.
So I'm surprised this outfit have managed it so easily.
I expect in the long-term he's had a lucky escape. But I appreciate it will be hard for him to see it that way right now.
Fingers crossed something better turns up.
Depends how far you want to go with it.
Was your son working under a Apprenticeship Agreement or a Contract of Apprenticeship?
Slightly different things.
If he was on the first, it needs to be checked that it meets the correct requirements for ASCLA 2009.
If not, he could be deemed to be under a Contract of Apprenticeship, which means he can't easily be dismissed and may be due payment up to the end of his apprenticeship.
Might be something to look into..
Was your son working under a Apprenticeship Agreement or a Contract of Apprenticeship?
Slightly different things.
If he was on the first, it needs to be checked that it meets the correct requirements for ASCLA 2009.
If not, he could be deemed to be under a Contract of Apprenticeship, which means he can't easily be dismissed and may be due payment up to the end of his apprenticeship.
Might be something to look into..
PistonBroker said:
I was speaking to a client only the other week who was telling me that it's hard to get rid of apprentices.
It is hard to dismiss an apprentice. They have the same employment rights as an employee, with some tiny differences depending on their contract:https://howarths-uk.com/2023/04/27/dismissing-appr...
PistonBroker said:
So I'm surprised this outfit have managed it so easily.
These types of places always manage it easily because they simply ignore the law, and they usually get away with it, so keep on doing it for decades. If the OP wants to get back at them, he can simply start the process of claiming for unfair dismissal through ACAS:
https://www.acas.org.uk/notify/start
Mont Blanc said:
Pretty appalling behaviour, but I'm not surprised. Many engineering businesses are stuck in the dark ages with how to behave in the workplace, or how to treat employees.
A friends son went to work as an apprentice in a large local engineering place. He is a quiet, polite, diligent, intelligent type. Has absolutely zero interest in mucking about, workplace 'jokes', or anything like that. Just wants to learn and do a good job. Like the OP's son, he would turn up early, work hard, and go home. Because he was like that, he got the piss taken out of him, bullied, jokes played on him, sprayed with water, and all that sort of stuff. One day they ripped his clothes off him, and shink wrapped him to a pallet on a forklift.
That was the final straw, and he asked his manager/supervisor for a quiet word the next day, and said he loved the work, liked the place, but the hazing/bullying was really getting to him and he hated it. An hour later, he's shouted at by the CEO to get in his office. The CEO then tells him that if he doesn't like he can "fk OFF out of here right now and never come back" and then gives him some patronising lecture about how you need to be 'tough' to work in engineering, and if he can't take it, then he can fk off and work in Tescos
The lad walked out and got the bus home, and when his Dad went back the next day to collect his toolbox, it was basically destroyed. looked like it had been kicked all round the yard when they threw it out, literally.
When will people grow the fk up?
I'd react badly to a scenario like this. A friends son went to work as an apprentice in a large local engineering place. He is a quiet, polite, diligent, intelligent type. Has absolutely zero interest in mucking about, workplace 'jokes', or anything like that. Just wants to learn and do a good job. Like the OP's son, he would turn up early, work hard, and go home. Because he was like that, he got the piss taken out of him, bullied, jokes played on him, sprayed with water, and all that sort of stuff. One day they ripped his clothes off him, and shink wrapped him to a pallet on a forklift.
That was the final straw, and he asked his manager/supervisor for a quiet word the next day, and said he loved the work, liked the place, but the hazing/bullying was really getting to him and he hated it. An hour later, he's shouted at by the CEO to get in his office. The CEO then tells him that if he doesn't like he can "f
k OFF out of here right now and never come back" and then gives him some patronising lecture about how you need to be 'tough' to work in engineering, and if he can't take it, then he can fk off and work in Tescos The lad walked out and got the bus home, and when his Dad went back the next day to collect his toolbox, it was basically destroyed. looked like it had been kicked all round the yard when they threw it out, literally.
When will people grow the f
k up?As it is it sounds like they got to act like
s and there were absolutely no consequences to it. People without inherent brains and manners only change their behaviour if there are actual consequences to it that are serious enough to be a deterrent.
Mont Blanc said:
Pretty appalling behaviour, but I'm not surprised. Many engineering businesses are stuck in the dark ages with how to behave in the workplace, or how to treat employees.
A friends son went to work as an apprentice in a large local engineering place. He is a quiet, polite, diligent, intelligent type. Has absolutely zero interest in mucking about, workplace 'jokes', or anything like that. Just wants to learn and do a good job. Like the OP's son, he would turn up early, work hard, and go home. Because he was like that, he got the piss taken out of him, bullied, jokes played on him, sprayed with water, and all that sort of stuff. One day they ripped his clothes off him, and shink wrapped him to a pallet on a forklift.
That was the final straw, and he asked his manager/supervisor for a quiet word the next day, and said he loved the work, liked the place, but the hazing/bullying was really getting to him and he hated it. An hour later, he's shouted at by the CEO to get in his office. The CEO then tells him that if he doesn't like he can "fk OFF out of here right now and never come back" and then gives him some patronising lecture about how you need to be 'tough' to work in engineering, and if he can't take it, then he can fk off and work in Tescos
The lad walked out and got the bus home, and when his Dad went back the next day to collect his toolbox, it was basically destroyed. looked like it had been kicked all round the yard when they threw it out, literally.
When will people grow the fk up?
Loads of "it never did me any harm" accounts from "on the tools" types on here.A friends son went to work as an apprentice in a large local engineering place. He is a quiet, polite, diligent, intelligent type. Has absolutely zero interest in mucking about, workplace 'jokes', or anything like that. Just wants to learn and do a good job. Like the OP's son, he would turn up early, work hard, and go home. Because he was like that, he got the piss taken out of him, bullied, jokes played on him, sprayed with water, and all that sort of stuff. One day they ripped his clothes off him, and shink wrapped him to a pallet on a forklift.
That was the final straw, and he asked his manager/supervisor for a quiet word the next day, and said he loved the work, liked the place, but the hazing/bullying was really getting to him and he hated it. An hour later, he's shouted at by the CEO to get in his office. The CEO then tells him that if he doesn't like he can "f
k OFF out of here right now and never come back" and then gives him some patronising lecture about how you need to be 'tough' to work in engineering, and if he can't take it, then he can fk off and work in Tescos The lad walked out and got the bus home, and when his Dad went back the next day to collect his toolbox, it was basically destroyed. looked like it had been kicked all round the yard when they threw it out, literally.
When will people grow the f
k up?Same as Andy's lad hopefully he's realised he can do much better and has done so
That's st. I suspect they "can't" just do that, but the "can't" very much hinges on someone dishing out consequences for trying.
My suggestion would be that your son tries to move on and find a better employer, as I think even if he could go back to them tomorrow, this is now a "nail holes left in the fence" situation having had them show their colours as to how they'll treat people.
While you see if you can dig into what can be done to visit some consequences upon them.
As to his feelings about it... clearly you're a supportive dad. Make sure he understands that this wasn't his fault, he hasn't let anyone down, and you're proud of him. Some people, especially in business/industry are just tts who don't have any sense of nuance or proportion with how to address things that fall even slightly outside their view of how stuff should work. I've met my share of them, but fortunately many were when I was established enough in my career to tell them to find someone else to fk with.
Feeling like he's "failed" is going to hurt, but if he's how you describe him, diligent and good at what he does, no, he'll probably do just fine. I have felt like that too, and like I've properly shafted myself at some points when I was younger, but I'm now well dug in with an engineering career in a decent industry, I get to do what I enjoy and am good at, and it feels like I'm where I'm meant to be. It just took me a few years and a fair bit of failing previously to get on the path that suited me.
t. I suspect they "can't" just do that, but the "can't" very much hinges on someone dishing out consequences for trying.My suggestion would be that your son tries to move on and find a better employer, as I think even if he could go back to them tomorrow, this is now a "nail holes left in the fence" situation having had them show their colours as to how they'll treat people.
While you see if you can dig into what can be done to visit some consequences upon them.
As to his feelings about it... clearly you're a supportive dad. Make sure he understands that this wasn't his fault, he hasn't let anyone down, and you're proud of him. Some people, especially in business/industry are just t
ts who don't have any sense of nuance or proportion with how to address things that fall even slightly outside their view of how stuff should work. I've met my share of them, but fortunately many were when I was established enough in my career to tell them to find someone else to fk with.Feeling like he's "failed" is going to hurt, but if he's how you describe him, diligent and good at what he does, no, he'll probably do just fine. I have felt like that too, and like I've properly shafted myself at some points when I was younger, but I'm now well dug in with an engineering career in a decent industry, I get to do what I enjoy and am good at, and it feels like I'm where I'm meant to be. It just took me a few years and a fair bit of failing previously to get on the path that suited me.
Mont Blanc said:
and then gives him some patronising lecture about how you need to be 'tough' to work in engineering, and if he can't take it, then he can fk off and work in Tescos
The "if you can't take it, leave" people can't actually take it themselves when someone properly pushes back, but it's borderline impossible to do when you're a teenager and very junior.k off and work in Tescos They're also weak cowards, so they'll say this s
t, then if someone actually does something, they'll go crying to a higher authority about it rather than themselves either just taking it or leaving.My experience of these types is they have three categories
People they pick on.
People they haven't picked on yet
People they picked on once
All you can do is make sure you're in that third group, and then when you're in a position to do so yourself, try and stamp it out a bit.
My son has just received the monies o/s that are short - as was last weeks pay by a day.
Deciding that being on the front foot was likely to catch them out I called them. I asked why last weeks pay shortfall had not been corrected and why this week was short and also for "confirmation of the nature of his contract as this will determine how we handle things on a legal perspective"
The response was aggressive so before he could get in to full flow I stated the conversation was over and hung up.
Subsequently received a call back which I let go to voicemail as thought it may prove useful - the highlights:
"You mentioned going legal - I would like to discuss what you mean by this" - this may have spooked them
"We took the steps we took in the best interests of your son, clearly you and your wife are more concerned about his job than his mental health" - oh, so no discussion, no plan discussed just a decision which is clearly the route of least resistance for them
Needless to say I am not going to respond to their request for a call to be made to them - lets wait and see what they do - I abhor people being treated badly and believe that these people are bullies and do not like anyone that has the ability to stand up to them, bullies are basically cowards
Deciding that being on the front foot was likely to catch them out I called them. I asked why last weeks pay shortfall had not been corrected and why this week was short and also for "confirmation of the nature of his contract as this will determine how we handle things on a legal perspective"
The response was aggressive so before he could get in to full flow I stated the conversation was over and hung up.
Subsequently received a call back which I let go to voicemail as thought it may prove useful - the highlights:
"You mentioned going legal - I would like to discuss what you mean by this" - this may have spooked them
"We took the steps we took in the best interests of your son, clearly you and your wife are more concerned about his job than his mental health" - oh, so no discussion, no plan discussed just a decision which is clearly the route of least resistance for them
Needless to say I am not going to respond to their request for a call to be made to them - lets wait and see what they do - I abhor people being treated badly and believe that these people are bullies and do not like anyone that has the ability to stand up to them, bullies are basically cowards
Andy665 said:
I abhor people being treated badly and believe that these people are bullies and do not like anyone that has the ability to stand up to them, bullies are basically cowards
I agreeThe only suggestion I'd make is to get your son to do the communication.
It's his job that has been taken from him and, whilst it's a s
tty situation, coaching him in how to stand up for himself and resolve it will stand him in good stead for the future.It will also give him a little more credibility as a 'proper' employee, rather than his Dad fighting his battles on his behalf.
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