Sagaris Initial Impressions
Discussion
Confession time.
I have just collected the new car (Sagaris) after a 5 month wait. Initial impressions then after ~100 miles...
First off, in the looks department before even getting in, it is such an agressive, sinister, evil but focused looking shape. The dark colour (RC) and anthracite alloys helping out here (all personal opinion of course). Went through serveral possible spec incarnations before arriving at that and thanks to those of you who emailed me pics (Lorraine & Pauline to name two, and apologies I went my own way in the end!).
Inside we have black & ocean green leather with contrasting stitching, which to my eye looks stunning - not too over the top and not too bland. Again personal taste!
One blot on the copybook interior-wise is the infamous Ford stalks making an appearance in my car - rather than the original nicely factory fashioned silver trinkets. At least one person has said on the Tuscan forum that they don't care, but personally it detracts from what otherwise is a beautiful place to be. I'll be wanting to replace them - anyone know if the 'old' Sagaris stalks can be simply retrofitted?
The leather is beatifully stitched and very neat everywhere - seats, dash, carpets, transmission tunnel, gaiters, roll cage - you name it. All beautifully done.
Tuscan seats - yes I was a sceptic, but seeing them in my car and feeling the side support that they actually give, I'm not bothered at all. There is definitely something different here though. I can recall that my previous Tuscan seats gave little side support at all. Perhaps I have put on weight. If the factory are saving money in the process by putting Tuscan seats in across the range then good for them. I think support is adeqate for road use.
A nice little detail touch that has been added outside is a little silver lifter at the bottom of the talgate glass. This is styled similar to the rear gurney flap supports and allows you to lift the glass easily without having to put your fingers underneath. My car also has the tailgate release in the number plate recess rather than via the TVR badge. It's just a button the same as those found under the mirrors. I don't mind this. Yes it is probably cost saving, but it may be more reliable in the long run and it doesn't detract from the looks (unlike the stalks!).
So lets go for a drive then... It's the docility and cossetting ride from such an outrageous looking thing that are first to register. Bit of a pussycat so far, purring along at a max of 2.5k on the rev counter. Noticed the odd little pop on the overrun which sounds nice and will no doubt increase with revs. The ride and handling experience compared to my 2002 Tuscan really is leaps & bounds ahead ;) I had one small bottoming out at the rear end when I wasn't expecting it, nor was I going hard, which was a little strange. Perhaps something that the more compliant ride has brought with it, but there is so much more composure to the whole experience at the wheel. No darty edginess. No crashing of road imperfections through to the cabin. No wild bucking bronko.
The steering has come in for some discussion - I find it has a really nice weight to it. Again, much better than the feel through my old Tuscan which was just too direct and also suffered tramlining. Sagaris steering feel has been compared to the 'deadness' of an Escort Cosworth on here. I think it's a little better than the Cossie's and would describe it as 'chunky' or 'meaty' but with good feel. I haven't of course been at great speed in mine yet, but I think we'll get along just fine in the steering department. I did do two 'quick' track laps in a factory car (the one the Stig had on track) and I enjoyed it at speed. Nicely trimmed little 'Personal' wheel too with reach and rake adjustment allowing you to get to a very comfortable driving position.
Visible build quality is much better than my previous Tuscan, so I can echo what's been said in that respect. The fit around the doors is lovely. All the bonnet lines and gaps are even (no bonnet rubbers). However there are the obligatory snags. We always like to air them, but I'll not be too negative:-
- Ford black plastic stalks for indicators & wipers. They work funtionally but they are naff compared to nice shiny TVR inhouse items.
- Rattle from behind the dashboard at cold engine idle
- Sticky passenger door window (sometimes not dropping when entering/exiting) Seems to be improving with use though
- Damp carpet driver's side & condensation gathering on the screen. Am told this got in when the door was opened in terrential rain. May be a leak somewhere, will have to see.
- Passenger side wiper sitting too high up the screen in rest position. Needs popped off and reseated on splines (unfortunately looks as if service boonet needs to come off for this). Could all be set like this though.
- Passenger seat belt reel very slow to retract
A short list of items for any new car, and short for a TVR gauging by other lists I've seen. I absolutely love it though - the looks inside & out, the noise, driving position, suspension/handling. I am really surprised by the comfort it affords. It can genuinely pootle about and be relaxing to drive when you want that - useful when you are running in! Am certain it will eat up the miles as others with more miles under their belt have commented.
I hope the experience remains so positive as more miles go on.
Gary.
I have just collected the new car (Sagaris) after a 5 month wait. Initial impressions then after ~100 miles...
First off, in the looks department before even getting in, it is such an agressive, sinister, evil but focused looking shape. The dark colour (RC) and anthracite alloys helping out here (all personal opinion of course). Went through serveral possible spec incarnations before arriving at that and thanks to those of you who emailed me pics (Lorraine & Pauline to name two, and apologies I went my own way in the end!).
Inside we have black & ocean green leather with contrasting stitching, which to my eye looks stunning - not too over the top and not too bland. Again personal taste!
One blot on the copybook interior-wise is the infamous Ford stalks making an appearance in my car - rather than the original nicely factory fashioned silver trinkets. At least one person has said on the Tuscan forum that they don't care, but personally it detracts from what otherwise is a beautiful place to be. I'll be wanting to replace them - anyone know if the 'old' Sagaris stalks can be simply retrofitted?
The leather is beatifully stitched and very neat everywhere - seats, dash, carpets, transmission tunnel, gaiters, roll cage - you name it. All beautifully done.
Tuscan seats - yes I was a sceptic, but seeing them in my car and feeling the side support that they actually give, I'm not bothered at all. There is definitely something different here though. I can recall that my previous Tuscan seats gave little side support at all. Perhaps I have put on weight. If the factory are saving money in the process by putting Tuscan seats in across the range then good for them. I think support is adeqate for road use.
A nice little detail touch that has been added outside is a little silver lifter at the bottom of the talgate glass. This is styled similar to the rear gurney flap supports and allows you to lift the glass easily without having to put your fingers underneath. My car also has the tailgate release in the number plate recess rather than via the TVR badge. It's just a button the same as those found under the mirrors. I don't mind this. Yes it is probably cost saving, but it may be more reliable in the long run and it doesn't detract from the looks (unlike the stalks!).
So lets go for a drive then... It's the docility and cossetting ride from such an outrageous looking thing that are first to register. Bit of a pussycat so far, purring along at a max of 2.5k on the rev counter. Noticed the odd little pop on the overrun which sounds nice and will no doubt increase with revs. The ride and handling experience compared to my 2002 Tuscan really is leaps & bounds ahead ;) I had one small bottoming out at the rear end when I wasn't expecting it, nor was I going hard, which was a little strange. Perhaps something that the more compliant ride has brought with it, but there is so much more composure to the whole experience at the wheel. No darty edginess. No crashing of road imperfections through to the cabin. No wild bucking bronko.
The steering has come in for some discussion - I find it has a really nice weight to it. Again, much better than the feel through my old Tuscan which was just too direct and also suffered tramlining. Sagaris steering feel has been compared to the 'deadness' of an Escort Cosworth on here. I think it's a little better than the Cossie's and would describe it as 'chunky' or 'meaty' but with good feel. I haven't of course been at great speed in mine yet, but I think we'll get along just fine in the steering department. I did do two 'quick' track laps in a factory car (the one the Stig had on track) and I enjoyed it at speed. Nicely trimmed little 'Personal' wheel too with reach and rake adjustment allowing you to get to a very comfortable driving position.
Visible build quality is much better than my previous Tuscan, so I can echo what's been said in that respect. The fit around the doors is lovely. All the bonnet lines and gaps are even (no bonnet rubbers). However there are the obligatory snags. We always like to air them, but I'll not be too negative:-
- Ford black plastic stalks for indicators & wipers. They work funtionally but they are naff compared to nice shiny TVR inhouse items.
- Rattle from behind the dashboard at cold engine idle
- Sticky passenger door window (sometimes not dropping when entering/exiting) Seems to be improving with use though
- Damp carpet driver's side & condensation gathering on the screen. Am told this got in when the door was opened in terrential rain. May be a leak somewhere, will have to see.
- Passenger side wiper sitting too high up the screen in rest position. Needs popped off and reseated on splines (unfortunately looks as if service boonet needs to come off for this). Could all be set like this though.
- Passenger seat belt reel very slow to retract
A short list of items for any new car, and short for a TVR gauging by other lists I've seen. I absolutely love it though - the looks inside & out, the noise, driving position, suspension/handling. I am really surprised by the comfort it affords. It can genuinely pootle about and be relaxing to drive when you want that - useful when you are running in! Am certain it will eat up the miles as others with more miles under their belt have commented.
I hope the experience remains so positive as more miles go on.
Gary.
Gary,
Sounds a lovely car, glad you're enjoying it!
I didn't realise they'd changed the stalks on the Saggy-ass too, I suspect that's a market waiting to be filled!
The other negative thing is the car bottoming out.
I was quite disappointed to read that - the original demo cars did the same. I'm told the first point to rub is a bolt on the rear diffuser so isn't as bad as it sounds.
However, surely the mounting could have been changed to prevent it? It's the only part of the car which I thought would annoy me in the long term.
Anyone else found any solutions to this?
Sounds a lovely car, glad you're enjoying it!
I didn't realise they'd changed the stalks on the Saggy-ass too, I suspect that's a market waiting to be filled!
The other negative thing is the car bottoming out.
I was quite disappointed to read that - the original demo cars did the same. I'm told the first point to rub is a bolt on the rear diffuser so isn't as bad as it sounds.
However, surely the mounting could have been changed to prevent it? It's the only part of the car which I thought would annoy me in the long term.
Anyone else found any solutions to this?
Excellent report!
Shame about the stalks. I have always considered the lovely chunky-looking silver items in the T350 (and indeed all the switchgear), to be one of the USP's about TVR ownership. Never mind. I am all for cost-cutting, but when it actually starts to affect one of the things that TVR has ALWAYS received positive presss about (the interior), its a real shame.
Would be nice to see some pics of your interior - I cannot imagine it at all!
P~
Shame about the stalks. I have always considered the lovely chunky-looking silver items in the T350 (and indeed all the switchgear), to be one of the USP's about TVR ownership. Never mind. I am all for cost-cutting, but when it actually starts to affect one of the things that TVR has ALWAYS received positive presss about (the interior), its a real shame.
Would be nice to see some pics of your interior - I cannot imagine it at all!
P~
Sounds like a stunning colour combination inside and out.
Amazed by the ford stalks though. There's definite evidence of penny pinching going on. I can understand the tuscan seats ploy but I can't believe the alloy stalks cost much. Maybe they got rid of the machines that used to make them ie making it expensive to continue making them after they ran out of stock.
I'm with you all the way about the steering. As far as I know there's only one PHer here who doesn't like it and that's DJC and he's never done a trackday so what does he know?
Amazed by the ford stalks though. There's definite evidence of penny pinching going on. I can understand the tuscan seats ploy but I can't believe the alloy stalks cost much. Maybe they got rid of the machines that used to make them ie making it expensive to continue making them after they ran out of stock.
I'm with you all the way about the steering. As far as I know there's only one PHer here who doesn't like it and that's DJC and he's never done a trackday so what does he know?
Will take a photo of the stalks tonight. It may shock & offend though. Bit like that decapitation in Midsomer Murders last night. What was all that about?
Won't be able to do justice to the exterior in the dark though so won't even try. I think that RC is proving a popular choice for the Sagaris, so you have probably seen it all before as far as exterior shots go!
Haven't seen an interior like mine though and I love it. Had a light interior with the Tuscan, now gone for dark, but not too dark - nice contrast the black & ocean green - was originally going to be black & mulberry. I'll belt up now, as I know such words are meaningless without pictures. They say a puncture is worth a thousand words
Reminds me - velcroed in the two tyre foam tins in their little compartment last night to stop them clonking around.
Gary.
Won't be able to do justice to the exterior in the dark though so won't even try. I think that RC is proving a popular choice for the Sagaris, so you have probably seen it all before as far as exterior shots go!
Haven't seen an interior like mine though and I love it. Had a light interior with the Tuscan, now gone for dark, but not too dark - nice contrast the black & ocean green - was originally going to be black & mulberry. I'll belt up now, as I know such words are meaningless without pictures. They say a puncture is worth a thousand words
Reminds me - velcroed in the two tyre foam tins in their little compartment last night to stop them clonking around. Gary.
garyf said:
- Ford black plastic stalks for indicators & wipers. They work funtionally but they are naff compared to nice shiny TVR inhouse items.
That sounds awful. I'm sure you can pick up some T350 stalks from a TVR specialist breakers yard.
garyf said:
- Rattle from behind the dashboard at cold engine idle
Have a feel underneath the dash behind the glove box and check the nuts/bolts holding the lower dash on are done up properly. One of mine wasn't and it rattled a lot.
garyf said:
- Sticky passenger door window (sometimes not dropping when entering/exiting) Seems to be improving with use though
Get some silicon spray (Halfords sell it) and apply it to the window rubbers. This worked on mine when I had the same problem.
garyf said:
- Damp carpet driver's side & condensation gathering on the screen. Am told this got in when the door was opened in terrential rain. May be a leak somewhere, will have to see.
Sounds like a leak to me. Both doors and the windscreen leaked on mine when I got it. If the condensation is on the driver's side in front of the pod then you may need to have an extra dash vent fitted. There is a known problem with condensation in this area because the pod is too close the screen. On mine they fitted a very small round vent into the dash at the bottom of the windscreen which cured the it.
garyf said:
- Passenger side wiper sitting too high up the screen in rest position. Needs popped off and reseated on splines (unfortunately looks as if service boonet needs to come off for this). Could all be set like this though.
I don't understand why the factory keeps sending cars out like this (and why the dealers don't sort it out at the PDI). I know of several Sagaris delivered like this. It just needs adjusting. Make sure when you/they adjust it that the bottom of the passenger side wiper doesn't hit the rubber round the base of the windscreen when it's at the top of its stroke.
garyf said:
- Passenger seat belt reel very slow to retract
Check the belt isn't catching between the back of the seat and the side of the car. In mine if you move the seat right back it jams the belt completely.
I hope this helps.
TSS
Thanks for all the info TSS.
I have a Holts silicone rubber lubricant spray that I'll try on the passenger window seal. Will also check under the dash for anything that might be loose. I had a quick grapple in the dark, but it needs daylight and some time.
Yes, the little condensation patch appears directly above the pod on the windscreen - very strange. I'll see what happens with more use to see if I'm going to need an additional dash vent like you. A bizarre solution!
So here are some pics (I hope - are visible in preview anyway). Firstly the new tailgate lifter to allow you to lift the rear glass which is very nice:-
Secondly the terrible Ford stalks (not so nice), which I'm trying to get replaced:-
And here is the interior (with Tuscan seats) that I'm very, very pleased with (hadn't seen this colour combo before):-
Oh, and stuck the camera blindly under the bonnet into the engine room and this came out first try:-
Gary.
I have a Holts silicone rubber lubricant spray that I'll try on the passenger window seal. Will also check under the dash for anything that might be loose. I had a quick grapple in the dark, but it needs daylight and some time.
Yes, the little condensation patch appears directly above the pod on the windscreen - very strange. I'll see what happens with more use to see if I'm going to need an additional dash vent like you. A bizarre solution!
So here are some pics (I hope - are visible in preview anyway). Firstly the new tailgate lifter to allow you to lift the rear glass which is very nice:-
Secondly the terrible Ford stalks (not so nice), which I'm trying to get replaced:-
And here is the interior (with Tuscan seats) that I'm very, very pleased with (hadn't seen this colour combo before):-
Oh, and stuck the camera blindly under the bonnet into the engine room and this came out first try:-
Gary.
Nice colour combo, inside. 
Hope you get the niggles sorted.!
I can understand you being annoyed with the plastic indicator stalks, they look totally out of place on the dash.! I cannot see the point of cost cutting, in an area, where it is so visible to the owner.?!
Also, although the seats look nice, that seat design is over 5 years old, I had those on my 01 Cerbera.
The proper seats were designed for the 350/Sag/Tam and IMO look much better, also you can remove the base swab on any of the seats, for trackwork or more support.
Rob
Hope you get the niggles sorted.!
I can understand you being annoyed with the plastic indicator stalks, they look totally out of place on the dash.! I cannot see the point of cost cutting, in an area, where it is so visible to the owner.?!
Also, although the seats look nice, that seat design is over 5 years old, I had those on my 01 Cerbera.
The proper seats were designed for the 350/Sag/Tam and IMO look much better, also you can remove the base swab on any of the seats, for trackwork or more support.
Rob
Yes Kurgen I originally approached the dealer regarding the seats long before the car was built when it emerged that Tuscan seats were finding their way in instead.
Was told I couldn't have the originals, so respeced my interior seat coloured bits and deleted painted seat backs. Someone was able to get the original seats by stating that they would cancel their order for two cars. I can only afford one, so I probably wouldn't carry the same clout. Though £55k is £55k. I'm not sure I would have been notified of the spec change - probably as my original seat colours would have been specific to the old design.
The reason the factory gave the dealer was that there were warranty issues with the original seats in the Sag. I know not what those might be, but if you put the same seats in all your cars then it is likely to be cheaper...
The stalks are the only thing I don't 'love' about the car. Everything else is as it should be. I recall on Saturday morning when I first sat behind the wheel at the dealer before setting off and spotted them. "These look sh1t I said, they'll have to go".
Anyway a moot point, the car is fantastic. I'll just drive witout using indicators or wipers till it's sorted
Gary.
Was told I couldn't have the originals, so respeced my interior seat coloured bits and deleted painted seat backs. Someone was able to get the original seats by stating that they would cancel their order for two cars. I can only afford one, so I probably wouldn't carry the same clout. Though £55k is £55k. I'm not sure I would have been notified of the spec change - probably as my original seat colours would have been specific to the old design.
The reason the factory gave the dealer was that there were warranty issues with the original seats in the Sag. I know not what those might be, but if you put the same seats in all your cars then it is likely to be cheaper...
The stalks are the only thing I don't 'love' about the car. Everything else is as it should be. I recall on Saturday morning when I first sat behind the wheel at the dealer before setting off and spotted them. "These look sh1t I said, they'll have to go".
Anyway a moot point, the car is fantastic. I'll just drive witout using indicators or wipers till it's sorted
Gary.
Gary,
The car is an absolute beast, you will not be disappointed.
I'm sure you're happy, bar the stalks, and there is no other vehicle on the planet, that will make you smile as much.!
I'm just concerned that long term, if the factory start to make too many cost cuts, that the style and individuality of TVR, will be lost.
Enjoy your car.!
Rob
The car is an absolute beast, you will not be disappointed.
I'm sure you're happy, bar the stalks, and there is no other vehicle on the planet, that will make you smile as much.!
I'm just concerned that long term, if the factory start to make too many cost cuts, that the style and individuality of TVR, will be lost.
Enjoy your car.!
Rob
To be honest the ford stalks aren't as bad as I'd imagined, helped largely by the mainly black leather dash. Very impressed by the colour combo inside though and the original alloy items would definitely finish it off nicely, but don't let the stalks get to you. The car is no less amazing and I bet if you had to live with them you would. I was insufferable about the filled in vents on my car but now the dust has settled the rest of the car is so fantastic I've kind of forgotten about them.
Don't wish to be a pedant but Kurgen's t350 seats pictured are not the original Sagaris ones. They had a slightly reprofiled headrest area with 'wings' designed to support a helmet for trackdays. They're cool and found their way into some later t350's too, that was until Smolenski's cost cutting axe started swinging.
I guess why not all use the same tuscan seats in all models. They aren't really worse in any way and they look great in your colour combo.
Don't wish to be a pedant but Kurgen's t350 seats pictured are not the original Sagaris ones. They had a slightly reprofiled headrest area with 'wings' designed to support a helmet for trackdays. They're cool and found their way into some later t350's too, that was until Smolenski's cost cutting axe started swinging.
I guess why not all use the same tuscan seats in all models. They aren't really worse in any way and they look great in your colour combo.
the pits said:
I guess why not all use the same tuscan seats in all models. They aren't really worse in any way..
hmmm
www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?f=7&h=0&t=197567
garyf said:
Very very nice. Much nicer than I expected as I have never been a fan of green on/in cars. That really could change my mind, tho.
The Ford stalks are not 'terrible', but how much nicer would it look with T350 stalks??? Yum! Cutting costs is fair enough, but customers (whats the offical term for 'points of contact' on cars?) <-them are the door handles, steering wheel, shifter, stalks and switchgear.
I thought one of the 'golden rules' was to avoid cutting costs with those parts, so that the customer's tactile impression was always a possitive one.
Perhaps I have read different material to TVR.
p~
The seats.
You have all got hold on the wrong end of the stick apparently.
Yes, the move to Tuscan seats across the range was a cost saving measure, however with regards to the Sagaris they are the optimal seats.
The 350 seats we all thought they were getting were a b1tch to put in, had to be canted and generally was a bodge job to get them fitted. The Tuscan seats sit better and fit better.
So says the guy who designed the roll cage and seating enviroment on the Sagaris!
Oops, yeah sorry. Allegedly to all of the above.
You have all got hold on the wrong end of the stick apparently.
Yes, the move to Tuscan seats across the range was a cost saving measure, however with regards to the Sagaris they are the optimal seats.
The 350 seats we all thought they were getting were a b1tch to put in, had to be canted and generally was a bodge job to get them fitted. The Tuscan seats sit better and fit better.
So says the guy who designed the roll cage and seating enviroment on the Sagaris!
Oops, yeah sorry. Allegedly to all of the above.
Pits, you are in all probability correct - I may get used to the stalks. Perhaps it was an overstatement to quote them as 'terrible'.
Here's what they could have been like (which is what I believe you have):-
Good news if they are just sleeves that go over the top
And a shot of the original Sagaris seat with accentuated bolster around the head/shoulder area (again what you have):-
compared to a couple of shots of T350 seats:-
The car is terrific and I am niggling here. In the grand scheme of things the plastic switchgear is not critical. I've asked my dealer to get some original items from the factory. I'll see if they can help me.
Sun is gleaming low in the sky outside now. I bet it looks all purpley now :-)
Gary.
Here's what they could have been like (which is what I believe you have):-
Good news if they are just sleeves that go over the top
And a shot of the original Sagaris seat with accentuated bolster around the head/shoulder area (again what you have):-
compared to a couple of shots of T350 seats:-
The car is terrific and I am niggling here. In the grand scheme of things the plastic switchgear is not critical. I've asked my dealer to get some original items from the factory. I'll see if they can help me.
Sun is gleaming low in the sky outside now. I bet it looks all purpley now :-)
Gary.
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