Jaguar CEO reportedly steps down
Discussion
Jag_NE said:
Lots of stupid old men who never bought a new jaguar but buy 2nd hand ones, thinking their views are relevant.
100,000,000x this. Also see Alfa Romeo and SAAB "enthusiasts" who actually only like them when they're the 5th owner and it's a £2k car, but somehow think they're the arbiter of what the brand represents. Galego said:
Cue in the mouth-frothers with the “96% sales down” crap
God save me from defending corporate types, but the dude delivered record profits and is 64, retiring after a 35 year stint. Let him ride into the sunset
And stated when he took the role that it was a 3 yr move.God save me from defending corporate types, but the dude delivered record profits and is 64, retiring after a 35 year stint. Let him ride into the sunset
Slow news day.
Relaxitscool said:
Jag_NE said:
Lots of stupid old men who never bought a new jaguar but buy 2nd hand ones, thinking their views are relevant.
What a bizarre comment.Since demand/desirability in the secondhand market decreases depreciation and hence makes ownership costs lower for the first owners, if I was in this business I'd be keen to learn the thoughts of all from the first to final owners.
The perceived depreciation (although this has always been fiddled by the germans by forcing the extras you have to have game, which increases the price paid but not the list price for calculating depreciation) along with a lack of cheap finance has always hit the lease price and made the ownership on paper look more expensive for jaguar. This has really held it back because they are more expensive than the monthly basic German equivalent. There was always a failure to engage and discount to this market in the same way people like Mercedes do. This then hit new sales, poor new sales further drives the price up.
But hey what do I know, I've bought new and secondhand, you seems to suggest my opinion only matter when I buy new. If this was always the case it would explain the demise of jaguar.
The perceived depreciation (although this has always been fiddled by the germans by forcing the extras you have to have game, which increases the price paid but not the list price for calculating depreciation) along with a lack of cheap finance has always hit the lease price and made the ownership on paper look more expensive for jaguar. This has really held it back because they are more expensive than the monthly basic German equivalent. There was always a failure to engage and discount to this market in the same way people like Mercedes do. This then hit new sales, poor new sales further drives the price up.
But hey what do I know, I've bought new and secondhand, you seems to suggest my opinion only matter when I buy new. If this was always the case it would explain the demise of jaguar.
I'd argue that trying to even compete with the German's in the "stack them high, lease them cheap" markets was a mistake because they didn't have the scale to compete profitably.
Back at the end of the Ford era there was a clear strategy of selling genuinely premium well equipped cars with proper margins in them even with Jaguar's high cost base and lower scale, a much more fitting strategy for a small manufacturer than trying to shovel a "not quite as good as a BMW" cars into a totally saturated marketplace.
The pivot to B&M Bargains BMW under TATA was foolish, and I thought obviously so. They lost all the momentum from the well received and increasingly bold X150 XK, XF, and X351 XJs that all sold pretty well and were well regarded when they instead turned out bland cars that were everyone's 3rd choice.
Quality also took a nosedive; the Ford era cars were well engineered, well made, and have proven durable but the TATA/Ingenium stuff... less so.
Putting aside that foolish video I see the move back to a striking and controversial flagship that is seeking entirely different buyers (ones who aren't dead or dying) as a continuation of a journey they started with the XF and X351 and an admission that the Ford strategy was right all along.
Maybe they can go and hire back the team who did the X351 and X250 XF interiors rather than letting people who lost their jobs when MFI went bust do the job like they have with the recent cars too, that would help.
Back at the end of the Ford era there was a clear strategy of selling genuinely premium well equipped cars with proper margins in them even with Jaguar's high cost base and lower scale, a much more fitting strategy for a small manufacturer than trying to shovel a "not quite as good as a BMW" cars into a totally saturated marketplace.
The pivot to B&M Bargains BMW under TATA was foolish, and I thought obviously so. They lost all the momentum from the well received and increasingly bold X150 XK, XF, and X351 XJs that all sold pretty well and were well regarded when they instead turned out bland cars that were everyone's 3rd choice.
Quality also took a nosedive; the Ford era cars were well engineered, well made, and have proven durable but the TATA/Ingenium stuff... less so.
Putting aside that foolish video I see the move back to a striking and controversial flagship that is seeking entirely different buyers (ones who aren't dead or dying) as a continuation of a journey they started with the XF and X351 and an admission that the Ford strategy was right all along.
Maybe they can go and hire back the team who did the X351 and X250 XF interiors rather than letting people who lost their jobs when MFI went bust do the job like they have with the recent cars too, that would help.
Edited by GeniusOfLove on Tuesday 12th August 12:59
Jaguar's best years were probably with Ford. As a stand alone company, they can't compete. Audi and Porsche struggled until VW purchased them. Mercedes Benz and BMW are building cars for every segment in order to keep up (and Mercedes has the commercial business),
Rebranding to produce even more niche products was a dumb idea. Whether any of this was his idea of whether he was taking direction from Tata is anybody's guess. He probably got a golden parachute on his way out and we'll never know.
It could be worse, Renault bought into Nissan and Mitsubishi and managed to run two very successful companies into the ground.
Rebranding to produce even more niche products was a dumb idea. Whether any of this was his idea of whether he was taking direction from Tata is anybody's guess. He probably got a golden parachute on his way out and we'll never know.
It could be worse, Renault bought into Nissan and Mitsubishi and managed to run two very successful companies into the ground.
alabbasi said:
Jaguar's best years were probably with Ford. As a stand alone company, they can't compete. Audi and Porsche struggled until VW purchased them. Mercedes Benz and BMW are building cars for every segment in order to keep up (and Mercedes has the commercial business),
Rebranding to produce even more niche products was a dumb idea. Whether any of this was his idea of whether he was taking direction from Tata is anybody's guess. He probably got a golden parachute on his way out and we'll never know.
It could be worse, Renault bought into Nissan and Mitsubishi and managed to run two very successful companies into the ground.
Best years under Ford? You think? OK, the XK was decent. But the S-Type & X-Type?Rebranding to produce even more niche products was a dumb idea. Whether any of this was his idea of whether he was taking direction from Tata is anybody's guess. He probably got a golden parachute on his way out and we'll never know.
It could be worse, Renault bought into Nissan and Mitsubishi and managed to run two very successful companies into the ground.
I'd say the best bit of the ford ownership was the marriage to Land Rover....and on that basis, Jaguar have not been a stand alone company for c40 years.
I'd say XF, F-Type and F-Pace were the stand outs in Jaguar's modern history, all post-Ford if my memory serves me correctly?
Wardy78 said:
Best years under Ford? You think? OK, the XK was decent. But the S-Type & X-Type?
I'd say the best bit of the ford ownership was the marriage to Land Rover....and on that basis, Jaguar have not been a stand alone company for c40 years.
I'd say XF, F-Type and F-Pace were the stand outs in Jaguar's modern history, all post-Ford if my memory serves me correctly?
Ford fixed a lot that was wrong with Jaguar but the initial round of all new products (X, S, X350) were massive missteps with the naff retro, but they realised the error of their ways and developed a really decent range of cars for the 2nd round with the X150, X250 XF, and finally X351 XJ finally giving Jaguar their first step forward in style since the XJS. XF was launched just as the company changed hands and X351 after but they were projects started and developed under Ford to their new strategy for the company.I'd say the best bit of the ford ownership was the marriage to Land Rover....and on that basis, Jaguar have not been a stand alone company for c40 years.
I'd say XF, F-Type and F-Pace were the stand outs in Jaguar's modern history, all post-Ford if my memory serves me correctly?
I feel a bit sorry for Ford, those huge investments in PAG were really starting to pay off with a great range of products from Jaguar, LR, Volvo, and Aston Martin just as they were forced to exit from them all so other companies benefited from the investment and work.
Ford processes and purchasing power did a lot to help make Jaguar reliable and attractive to buyers who would otherwise choose a German or Japanese luxury car. Their sales increased.
Land Rover has always been the brand that everybody wanted. BMC , Leyland, Rover group could have sold it 100 times over.
As far as the x type?... Honestly it was not a bad car. The ones that I see here in Texas seem to have held up better than the E46 BMW which were everywhere when they were new. If they didn't tell anyone that it was based on a model, I think it would have done better.
Land Rover has always been the brand that everybody wanted. BMC , Leyland, Rover group could have sold it 100 times over.
As far as the x type?... Honestly it was not a bad car. The ones that I see here in Texas seem to have held up better than the E46 BMW which were everywhere when they were new. If they didn't tell anyone that it was based on a model, I think it would have done better.
Wardy78 said:
Best years under Ford? You think? OK, the XK was decent. But the S-Type & X-Type?
I'd say the best bit of the ford ownership was the marriage to Land Rover....and on that basis, Jaguar have not been a stand alone company for c40 years.
I'd say XF, F-Type and F-Pace were the stand outs in Jaguar's modern history, all post-Ford if my memory serves me correctly?
As someone who actually worked for Jaguar during this period, I'd say they absolutely were the best of the modern era. The shear brute financial muscle Ford brought to the table to modernise and replace the aging factories and equipment was off the scale. If for example you bought an end of the line Escort, around '96, you might have noticed it was significantly better built than before. Ford used the runout production of the Escort in Halewood to work out the teething problems with the new X Type line before committing them to build.I'd say the best bit of the ford ownership was the marriage to Land Rover....and on that basis, Jaguar have not been a stand alone company for c40 years.
I'd say XF, F-Type and F-Pace were the stand outs in Jaguar's modern history, all post-Ford if my memory serves me correctly?
People malign the X Type, but I think they're being unfair. Compared to the competition, they offered better equipment levels for the price, a nicer ride quality and a build quality that was on par. The only misstep was lack of diesel at launch, but Ford quickly helped fix that by letting Witley get hold of the very well proven TDCi 2.0 unit. Jaguar changed a few things such as the head, inlet manifold and turbo, but the basis was a peach of a diesel that could offer 50mpg, and an easily attainable 200k mile lifespan.
Now, obviously styling is always an personal thing, and the "shrunken XJ" look doesn't work for everyone, but they were genuinely a very good car, especially at the price point they were sold.
S Type was a decent stab at a mid sized car, good engines and gearbox, again the lack of diesel in the beginning was a regrettable omission, but upon launch in '99 the world wasn't diesel mad yet and those buying Jaguar were certainly not looking at that market yet. Styling was the sticking point, but if you can get on with it the mechanical car itself is pretty good. S Type R with its 4.2 was a genuine contender versus the M5 of the day.
So yes, Ford did Jaguar alright. They even bankrolled the F1 team for three seasons. Unfortunately the good old British habit of slating a British product for every minor niggle whilst simultaneously waving away any shortcomings of the big 3 German brands was as pervasive then as it is now, and without an engaged UK market, the US was what really kept them going. As the American tastes started to covert more Japanese and German cars, Jaguar began to slide.
Perhaps Jaguar were erroneous in going down the F1 route, and ought to have returned to the old stomping ground of Endurance Racing in WEC, and gone for more Le Mans victory (this was of course only a few years after 1990, so still living memory of the last win) but regardless, they still got a lot right.
Edited by Vsix and Vtec on Tuesday 12th August 21:23
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