Speed limit repeater signs on no through roads

[Penny Whistle]

There is a proposal to introduce a 20mph limit through our village. There are 2 no through roads off the main road, one is only 200-300 metres long, the other is very nearly a mile long. In proposing the siting of the signs, the council is claiming that because you can only enter the no through roads from the major road there is no need for any repeater signs on either side road. Is that valid and legal ? Someone might be driving out of one of the side roads who was not the driver when they arrived. They propose siting repeater signs every 200-300M along the major road.

[E-bmw]

Penny Whistle said:

Is that valid and legal ?

Yes.

By your argument, what if you were a different driver than the one that stopped ANYWHERE where there isn't a repeater sign, how would you know the limit?

There aren't signs on the end of everyone's driveway to remind them what speed limit they are pulling out into, so why would there be where you say?

Even if they put one at the other end of the NTR what about the houses between there & the next one?

[No ideas for a name]

Are there street lights on the side roads?
If so, I thought the presumption was 30 unless it has repeaters.

Unless you are in Wales.

ETA:
TSM Section 8.3 will give the right answer.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5c7...

Edited by No ideas for a name on Thursday 14th August 16:46

[Penny Whistle]

E-bmw said:

By your argument, what if you were a different driver than the one that stopped ANYWHERE where there isn't a repeater sign, how would you know the limit?

You would only be driving for a maximum of a couple of hundred metres, not nearly a mile, before you encountered a repeater.

There are no street lights for miles around.

[Alex@POD]

Are you worried about something or is that just idle musings?

[gazza285]

There’s a scrapyard in North Wales I occasionally visit, there’s two access roads, one is from a forty, and the other is from a twenty, and they both join the A548. I went in the access from the forty, but came out in the twenty, and was collared before the next repeater. Happy days.

[Penny Whistle]

Alex@POD said:

Are you worried about something or is that just idle musings?

It's more idle musings though there are some stretches where it is easy and safe to do a lot more than 20mph.

[Penny Whistle]

No ideas for a name said:

ETA:
TSM Section 8.3 will give the right answer.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5c7...

Thanks, though I cannot see any specific mention relating to no through roads (other than a passing reference to cul de sacs in 20 Zones, which this will not be).
8.3.1 states that there is no specific requirement to provide repeaters, though they are recommended at 200M intervals in the case of 20mph limits (see table 8-4) - and the authority is indeed intending to provide repeaters on the major road.
In fact 8.7.1 says that 20mph limits are indicated by terminal and repeater signs in the same manner as any other speed limit.
If anyone can point me to any exemption for no through roads I would be grateful.

[E-bmw]

Penny Whistle said:

E-bmw said:

By your argument, what if you were a different driver than the one that stopped ANYWHERE where there isn't a repeater sign, how would you know the limit?

You would only be driving for a maximum of a couple of hundred metres, not nearly a mile, before you encountered a repeater.

There are no street lights for miles around.

I never mentioned street lights.

YOU said the NTR was only 2/300 m long, so where do you now get "nearly a mile from"?

[Penny Whistle]

E-bmw said:

YOU said the NTR was only 2/300 m long, so where do you now get "nearly a mile from"?

From my original post : "There are 2 no through roads off the main road, one is only 200-300 metres long, the other is very nearly a mile long." Is that not clear enough for YOU ?

[Graveworm]

E-bmw said:

Penny Whistle said:

E-bmw said:

By your argument, what if you were a different driver than the one that stopped ANYWHERE where there isn't a repeater sign, how would you know the limit?

You would only be driving for a maximum of a couple of hundred metres, not nearly a mile, before you encountered a repeater.

There are no street lights for miles around.

I never mentioned street lights.

YOU said the NTR was only 2/300 m long, so where do you now get "nearly a mile from"?

I read it as one is 200-300m and the other is a mile.
As to whether there are enough signs, is now a matter of fact based on all the circumstances that courts can determine if prosecuted. The downside is that you have to get prosecuted, then go to court, and even if you win it almost certainly doesn't change anything, for everyone else or even you on another day.

[Pica-Pica]

gazza285 said:

There’s a scrapyard in North Wales I occasionally visit, there’s two access roads, one is from a forty, and the other is from a twenty, and they both join the A548. I went in the access from the forty, but came out in the twenty, and was collared before the next repeater. Happy days.

As a SAC might advise you, if you enter an unknown road, and did not see (or notice) a speed limit sign, then assume the default street lit limit, until a sign confirms the limit. That applies throughout UK.

[E-bmw]

Penny Whistle said:

E-bmw said:

YOU said the NTR was only 2/300 m long, so where do you now get "nearly a mile from"?

From my original post : "There are 2 no through roads off the main road, one is only 200-300 metres long, the other is very nearly a mile long." Is that not clear enough for YOU ?

OK, I mis-read that bit, but that doesn't change the fact that there is one way in/one way out & by your own admission there is/will be signage to show the limit.

Repeaters are (AFAIK) to remind you of the limit & (IIRC) not actually required by law, so where would that leave your argument on any other road without repeaters?

[MustangGT]

Penny Whistle said:

No ideas for a name said:

ETA:
TSM Section 8.3 will give the right answer.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5c7...

Thanks, though I cannot see any specific mention relating to no through roads (other than a passing reference to cul de sacs in 20 Zones, which this will not be).
8.3.1 states that there is no specific requirement to provide repeaters, though they are recommended at 200M intervals in the case of 20mph limits (see table 8-4) - and the authority is indeed intending to provide repeaters on the major road.
In fact 8.7.1 says that 20mph limits are indicated by terminal and repeater signs in the same manner as any other speed limit.
If anyone can point me to any exemption for no through roads I would be grateful.

Why would an exemption be needed? Your bit in bold does not make sense.

You enter the signed 20mph limit on the main road and turn into one of the no-through roads. You are already in the 20mph limited area therefore no need for new signage. The repeaters are recommended not required.

[Penny Whistle]

MustangGT said:

Why would an exemption be needed? Your bit in bold does not make sense.

You enter the signed 20mph limit on the main road and turn into one of the no-through roads. You are already in the 20mph limited area therefore no need for new signage. The repeaters are recommended not required.

Why does the bit in bold not make sense ? This will not be a 20mph Zone (which requires speed bumps, chicanes, etc).

Your implication is that having been through a terminal sign there is no need for repeaters. But they are proposing repeaters on the major road. I am wondering why the inconsistency. As a matter of fact the no through road is actually longer than the 20mph limit stretch on the major road.

My concern is that if it is not properly signed then it could prove unenforceable (see numerous threads regarding other comparable cases regarding parking, etc).

[Yellow Lizud]

Penny Whistle said:

Why does the bit in bold not make sense ? This will not be a 20mph Zone (which requires speed bumps, chicanes, etc).

Your implication is that having been through a terminal sign there is no need for repeaters. But they are proposing repeaters on the major road. I am wondering why the inconsistency. As a matter of fact the no through road is actually longer than the 20mph limit stretch on the major road.

My concern is that if it is not properly signed then it could prove unenforceable (see numerous threads regarding other comparable cases regarding parking, etc).

Who do you think is going to enforce a 20mph limit on a no through road?

[Graveworm]

E-bmw said:

Penny Whistle said:

E-bmw said:

YOU said the NTR was only 2/300 m long, so where do you now get "nearly a mile from"?

From my original post : "There are 2 no through roads off the main road, one is only 200-300 metres long, the other is very nearly a mile long." Is that not clear enough for YOU ?

OK, I mis-read that bit, but that doesn't change the fact that there is one way in/one way out & by your own admission there is/will be signage to show the limit.

Repeaters are (AFAIK) to remind you of the limit & (IIRC) not actually required by law, so where would that leave your argument on any other road without repeaters?

There is requirement for adequate signage - that used to be prescriptive so many repeaters at specific distances depending on the speed limit. That was changed so now it's more flexible but it still needs to be adequate. What is adequate is a matter of fact that a court can and does decide in individual cases. They can use the guidance to help them.

[MustangGT]

Penny Whistle said:

MustangGT said:

Why would an exemption be needed? Your bit in bold does not make sense.

You enter the signed 20mph limit on the main road and turn into one of the no-through roads. You are already in the 20mph limited area therefore no need for new signage. The repeaters are recommended not required.

Why does the bit in bold not make sense ? This will not be a 20mph Zone (which requires speed bumps, chicanes, etc).

Your implication is that having been through a terminal sign there is no need for repeaters. But they are proposing repeaters on the major road. I am wondering why the inconsistency. As a matter of fact the no through road is actually longer than the 20mph limit stretch on the major road.

My concern is that if it is not properly signed then it could prove unenforceable (see numerous threads regarding other comparable cases regarding parking, etc).

Simple really. Is the turning to the start of the no through road(s) within the 20mph restricted zone? Your post implies yes, then it is 20mph limit without further need for signs. The rules for signage state repeaters are 'recommended', not are 'required'. Think of a capital T, the horizontal crossbar is the existing 20mph road, the vertical is the no through road. The no through road exists within the zone, therefore no new signage needed.

[Penny Whistle]

MustangGT said:

Simple really. Is the turning to the start of the no through road(s) within the 20mph restricted zone? Your post implies yes, then it is 20mph limit without further need for signs. The rules for signage state repeaters are 'recommended', not are 'required'. Think of a capital T, the horizontal crossbar is the existing 20mph road, the vertical is the no through road. The no through road exists within the zone, therefore no new signage needed.

Totally missing the point. The implication of what you say is that once you are past the terminal sign on entry to the limit, there is no need for repeaters. Why have them on the major road, but not the minor ?

[MustangGT]

Penny Whistle said:

MustangGT said:

Simple really. Is the turning to the start of the no through road(s) within the 20mph restricted zone? Your post implies yes, then it is 20mph limit without further need for signs. The rules for signage state repeaters are 'recommended', not are 'required'. Think of a capital T, the horizontal crossbar is the existing 20mph road, the vertical is the no through road. The no through road exists within the zone, therefore no new signage needed.

Totally missing the point. The implication of what you say is that once you are past the terminal sign on entry to the limit, there is no need for repeaters. Why have them on the major road, but not the minor ?

I have covered that twice. There is no need for them, it is a recommendation only. Sensible on the main road, not necessary on the no through roads for multiple reasons such as less traffic, less opportunity to speed because of lack of road length.