Loft-mounted alternatives to slit system Air Con?
Discussion
I would like to install air con in some of the bedrooms (all upstairs) if possible, and I would like to avoid split systems for various reasons.
Is there such a thing as a loft mounted air con plant which can blow old air to several rooms via ducting? I have no issues with having ceiling vents in the bedrooms.
There is more than ample loft space and height as it is all attic trusses and fully floor boarded up there, so basically one massive L shaped room that covers all of the upstairs rooms, with very easy access to all the soffits all round the house.
Any ideas? Anyone done this? Any issues with noise or vibration etc?
Is there such a thing as a loft mounted air con plant which can blow old air to several rooms via ducting? I have no issues with having ceiling vents in the bedrooms.
There is more than ample loft space and height as it is all attic trusses and fully floor boarded up there, so basically one massive L shaped room that covers all of the upstairs rooms, with very easy access to all the soffits all round the house.
Any ideas? Anyone done this? Any issues with noise or vibration etc?
I came this way a few years ago. Like you I wanted the gubbins in the loft and a duct down through the first floor to the lounge ceiling.
The first problem is that the vast majority of installers will only do wall-mounted systems because that's all they know and ducted systems are witchcraft. For me it's simple case of blowing cold air down a tube, eg 150mm cooker hood ducting, and a thermostat somewhere, but they don't see it.
Eventually I spoke to someone who did know about ducted systems and he told me that it would need ducts 350mm diameter. Four of them. It was also going to be much more £££. He seemed certain of it so at that point I gave up and resigned myself to boxes on walls like everyone else. I still don't see why an 8-9 foot run needs to be 350mm diameter to get cold air down but frankly I couldn't be bothered to argue. So next month my lounge and bedroom will have giant inkjet printers stuck to the walls. At least then there are no uncertainties; it would be annoying to spend £££ on a half home-made ducted system only to find it didn't work very well.
However, the fact you only need the upstairs done might help!
The first problem is that the vast majority of installers will only do wall-mounted systems because that's all they know and ducted systems are witchcraft. For me it's simple case of blowing cold air down a tube, eg 150mm cooker hood ducting, and a thermostat somewhere, but they don't see it.
Eventually I spoke to someone who did know about ducted systems and he told me that it would need ducts 350mm diameter. Four of them. It was also going to be much more £££. He seemed certain of it so at that point I gave up and resigned myself to boxes on walls like everyone else. I still don't see why an 8-9 foot run needs to be 350mm diameter to get cold air down but frankly I couldn't be bothered to argue. So next month my lounge and bedroom will have giant inkjet printers stuck to the walls. At least then there are no uncertainties; it would be annoying to spend £££ on a half home-made ducted system only to find it didn't work very well.
However, the fact you only need the upstairs done might help!
Following this, as i was blocked from installing AC on our whole-house refurb by my wife, who thought units on the wall looked nasty (she has a point). I dont really GAF what they look like as they're in the bedrooms and nobody else is going to see them...
We also have a massive void / loft that could easily house all the ducting. My plumber, who also installs AC thought it would be possible, i'll try and grab him next week and get more details.
We also have a massive void / loft that could easily house all the ducting. My plumber, who also installs AC thought it would be possible, i'll try and grab him next week and get more details.
Ducted system is definitely possible but will cost you an arm and three legs. They are more usually designed into a building from the outset. System balance is one of the things needing care, so you don't have a howling gale out of one vent and a slow trickle from another. This is why ducts need a decent cross section.
IMO you'll be better off with a normal split system and you can mount the condenser in the attic if you like, although you'll need good ventilation up there. Suspended ceilings can tend to reverberate with vibration but it should be possible to mount the condenser either to brickwork (chimney stack/gable end) or suspended from the rafters.
IMO you'll be better off with a normal split system and you can mount the condenser in the attic if you like, although you'll need good ventilation up there. Suspended ceilings can tend to reverberate with vibration but it should be possible to mount the condenser either to brickwork (chimney stack/gable end) or suspended from the rafters.
Ducted system aren’t really suitable for uk homes, mainly due to the size of the duct needed
Plenty of vids on YouTube showing the installs in USA.
My other half was adamant split systems weren't being installed, until I did it anyway and we gitto the first hot weather afterwards.
Once the summer was over, she had them installed in all the other bedrooms.
There are a few funky designs available but they are still noticeable unless you can tuck them away behind a door.
Plenty of vids on YouTube showing the installs in USA.
My other half was adamant split systems weren't being installed, until I did it anyway and we gitto the first hot weather afterwards.
Once the summer was over, she had them installed in all the other bedrooms.
There are a few funky designs available but they are still noticeable unless you can tuck them away behind a door.
Edited by 119 on Saturday 16th August 14:44
119 said:
There are a few funky designs available but they are still noticeable unless you can tuck them away behind a door.
I would have liked internal units that could be fitted right up against the ceiling, but they have inlets on the top so you can't. Has any designer of a/c units had the wit to put the inlet on the front?Simpo Two said:
119 said:
There are a few funky designs available but they are still noticeable unless you can tuck them away behind a door.
I would have liked internal units that could be fitted right up against the ceiling, but they have inlets on the top so you can't. Has any designer of a/c units had the wit to put the inlet on the front?Simpo Two said:
119 said:
There are a few funky designs available but they are still noticeable unless you can tuck them away behind a door.
I would have liked internal units that could be fitted right up against the ceiling, but they have inlets on the top so you can't. Has any designer of a/c units had the wit to put the inlet on the front?The need for a gap between unit and ceiling is because the cover clips on at the top then screws on at the bottom. If there is no space at the top, then you will not be able to pull the bottom out (hinging from the top as it goes) to get the cover on and off
With reference to ducting (and I think you have questioned this, and I have answered before) if you try and push too much air down too small a duct, the static pressure will build up in the duct and you will end up with little or no flow, and lots of noise. Perhaps a similarity I can give you would be an exhaust on your high performance car, if it's too small a diameter it will restrict the power of the engine due to a build up of back pressure. It will still run but when you try and exploit the full capability of the engine, the restrictive exhaust will strangle it.
Interesting.
Thanks people. Seems like even asking an AC engineering business about this sort of thing will result in me just getting funny looks...
Yes, the wall mounted interior units of a split system are ugly, but the fact you have to have even uglier external units is what is putting me off. I have spent a lot of time, effort and money getting the gardens and exterior of my home to look nice. There are no visible utilities, no external waste/vent stacks or pipes, no cables on walls, the bins are hidden, no TV aerial, and all that that of thing.
Fitting AC would result in both the hideous external condensing units, but worse, presumably the coolant lines would have to be run all the way up the outside of the wall from ground level to loft level where they would then enter and be routed to where the internal AC units were.
I note that it was mentioned by Panamax that you can mount the condenser units in the loft, but then surely the issue of heat build up in the loft becomes a thing.
I appreciate I'm trying to have my cake and eat it, but I guess it was worth asking the hive mind of PH.
Thanks people. Seems like even asking an AC engineering business about this sort of thing will result in me just getting funny looks...
Yes, the wall mounted interior units of a split system are ugly, but the fact you have to have even uglier external units is what is putting me off. I have spent a lot of time, effort and money getting the gardens and exterior of my home to look nice. There are no visible utilities, no external waste/vent stacks or pipes, no cables on walls, the bins are hidden, no TV aerial, and all that that of thing.
Fitting AC would result in both the hideous external condensing units, but worse, presumably the coolant lines would have to be run all the way up the outside of the wall from ground level to loft level where they would then enter and be routed to where the internal AC units were.
I note that it was mentioned by Panamax that you can mount the condenser units in the loft, but then surely the issue of heat build up in the loft becomes a thing.
I appreciate I'm trying to have my cake and eat it, but I guess it was worth asking the hive mind of PH.
I have found various companies offering domestic AC systems without external condenser unit, such as this:
https://www.parkair.uk/products/heat-pump-without-...
https://www.urbancooling.com/water-cooled-air-cond...
The Urban Cooling one quotes about £10,000 for AC cooling to be fitted to 3 bedrooms, and you can opt for ducted at an extra £1200 to remove any split units on the walls internally. All wifi controlled etc.
Whilst claiming to be AAA energy rated, they appear to rely on having a cold water feed to the condenser unit (which you can put in the loft or elsewhere). The heat is removed from the condenser by a constantly running stream of cold water from your domestic cold water system, and the water is then discharged to your foul water system.
The water comes back out the condenser unit at about 30c higher in temp than it went in, after absorbing the heat.
I wonder how much the AAA energy/cost rating is offset by the cost of water being constantly used to cool the condenser. (I have a water meter). But I guess that if you want AC to be running and are happy to pay for that electricity use, then a few quid in water isn't going to be an issue.
Further research says these units will use 60 litres of water per hour when running full power to reduce the temperature down from the high 20's in a room to the desired temp of 19-20c or whatever.
At present, 1000 litres of water is charged by my supplier at £4.25. This means that one litre costs £0.00475. Multiply this by 60 and you get 28p.
So 28p per hour in water consumption assuming they were running in full cooling mode. Once they get down to the desired temp, they simply cycle on and off as required every so often as you would expect.
https://www.parkair.uk/products/heat-pump-without-...
https://www.urbancooling.com/water-cooled-air-cond...
The Urban Cooling one quotes about £10,000 for AC cooling to be fitted to 3 bedrooms, and you can opt for ducted at an extra £1200 to remove any split units on the walls internally. All wifi controlled etc.
Whilst claiming to be AAA energy rated, they appear to rely on having a cold water feed to the condenser unit (which you can put in the loft or elsewhere). The heat is removed from the condenser by a constantly running stream of cold water from your domestic cold water system, and the water is then discharged to your foul water system.
The water comes back out the condenser unit at about 30c higher in temp than it went in, after absorbing the heat.
I wonder how much the AAA energy/cost rating is offset by the cost of water being constantly used to cool the condenser. (I have a water meter). But I guess that if you want AC to be running and are happy to pay for that electricity use, then a few quid in water isn't going to be an issue.
Further research says these units will use 60 litres of water per hour when running full power to reduce the temperature down from the high 20's in a room to the desired temp of 19-20c or whatever.
At present, 1000 litres of water is charged by my supplier at £4.25. This means that one litre costs £0.00475. Multiply this by 60 and you get 28p.
So 28p per hour in water consumption assuming they were running in full cooling mode. Once they get down to the desired temp, they simply cycle on and off as required every so often as you would expect.
Edited by Mont Blanc on Saturday 16th August 18:23
We have fitted a fair amount of ducted systems, fujitsu and daikin. Vent and return in the bedroom or vent in the bedroom and return in the hall, some times need to put a grill in the door to get airflow. It's basically a fridge split with the indoor unit in a insulated box with a manifold.
Gary
Gary
Lol, using water to cool when it’s a heatwave, I can’t see an issue there.
Maybe if they used rainwater…?
On ducted, can’t you just run the system that’d otherwise be on the wall, but in the loft.
So several discrete units still, each with an IO duct plate in room (cold one side, warm inlet other), but hidden so it’s not a big grotty noisy thing stuck to your wall 95% of the time you don’t need it?
I think I’d invest £2,000 in a load of mobile units and hide them in the loft most of the year, then get them out and run when needed.
Aiui you can get the decent ones that are closed loop (intake and exhaust panels fit in a panel in an open window) and they’re pretty good.
Maybe if they used rainwater…?
On ducted, can’t you just run the system that’d otherwise be on the wall, but in the loft.
So several discrete units still, each with an IO duct plate in room (cold one side, warm inlet other), but hidden so it’s not a big grotty noisy thing stuck to your wall 95% of the time you don’t need it?
I think I’d invest £2,000 in a load of mobile units and hide them in the loft most of the year, then get them out and run when needed.
Aiui you can get the decent ones that are closed loop (intake and exhaust panels fit in a panel in an open window) and they’re pretty good.
Mr Whippy said:
Lol, using water to cool when it’s a heatwave, I can’t see an issue there.
Maybe if they used rainwater…?
On ducted, can’t you just run the system that’d otherwise be on the wall, but in the loft.
So several discrete units still, each with an IO duct plate in room (cold one side, warm inlet other), but hidden so it’s not a big grotty noisy thing stuck to your wall 95% of the time you don’t need it?
I think I’d invest £2,000 in a load of mobile units and hide them in the loft most of the year, then get them out and run when needed.
Aiui you can get the decent ones that are closed loop (intake and exhaust panels fit in a panel in an open window) and they’re pretty good.
Bit in bold - not sure what you mean? The units are plumbed into your cold water supply in the house and discharge into your waste waster system. The condenser uses a sealed air/water cooler.Maybe if they used rainwater…?
On ducted, can’t you just run the system that’d otherwise be on the wall, but in the loft.
So several discrete units still, each with an IO duct plate in room (cold one side, warm inlet other), but hidden so it’s not a big grotty noisy thing stuck to your wall 95% of the time you don’t need it?
I think I’d invest £2,000 in a load of mobile units and hide them in the loft most of the year, then get them out and run when needed.
Aiui you can get the decent ones that are closed loop (intake and exhaust panels fit in a panel in an open window) and they’re pretty good.
I’m unsure as to what a heatwave has to do with it, unless I’m being a bit thick, which is entirely possible.
Mont Blanc said:
Mr Whippy said:
Lol, using water to cool when it’s a heatwave, I can’t see an issue there.
Maybe if they used rainwater…?
On ducted, can’t you just run the system that’d otherwise be on the wall, but in the loft.
So several discrete units still, each with an IO duct plate in room (cold one side, warm inlet other), but hidden so it’s not a big grotty noisy thing stuck to your wall 95% of the time you don’t need it?
I think I’d invest £2,000 in a load of mobile units and hide them in the loft most of the year, then get them out and run when needed.
Aiui you can get the decent ones that are closed loop (intake and exhaust panels fit in a panel in an open window) and they’re pretty good.
Bit in bold - not sure what you mean? The units are plumbed into your cold water supply in the house and discharge into your waste waster system. The condenser uses a sealed air/water cooler.Maybe if they used rainwater…?
On ducted, can’t you just run the system that’d otherwise be on the wall, but in the loft.
So several discrete units still, each with an IO duct plate in room (cold one side, warm inlet other), but hidden so it’s not a big grotty noisy thing stuck to your wall 95% of the time you don’t need it?
I think I’d invest £2,000 in a load of mobile units and hide them in the loft most of the year, then get them out and run when needed.
Aiui you can get the decent ones that are closed loop (intake and exhaust panels fit in a panel in an open window) and they’re pretty good.
I’m unsure as to what a heatwave has to do with it, unless I’m being a bit thick, which is entirely possible.
LastPoster said:
The inlets are pretty much always on the front
I haven't seen one like that... the fronts always look plain.Mont Blanc said:
Yes, the wall mounted interior units of a split system are ugly, but the fact you have to have even uglier external units is what is putting me off. I have spent a lot of time, effort and money getting the gardens and exterior of my home to look nice. There are no visible utilities, no external waste/vent stacks or pipes, no cables on walls, the bins are hidden, no TV aerial, and all that that of thing.
Fitting AC would result in both the hideous external condensing units, but worse, presumably the coolant lines would have to be run all the way up the outside of the wall from ground level to loft level where they would then enter and be routed to where the internal AC units were.
When I was scouting around for systems I noticed one had optional covers for the external units, but yes, they are plug ugly and always beige. Walls are usually brown so at least make the bloody things brown! On the plus side, your neighbours will see it and be envious that you have a/c. You could have it at ground level and put some kind of screen in front, as long as it didn't impede airflow.Fitting AC would result in both the hideous external condensing units, but worse, presumably the coolant lines would have to be run all the way up the outside of the wall from ground level to loft level where they would then enter and be routed to where the internal AC units were.
The pipes from there usually go along/up the walls then through the walls into the back of the internal units, and are covered in plastic ducting.
Mont Blanc said:
Interesting.
Thanks people. Seems like even asking an AC engineering business about this sort of thing will result in me just getting funny looks...
Yes, the wall mounted interior units of a split system are ugly, but the fact you have to have even uglier external units is what is putting me off. I have spent a lot of time, effort and money getting the gardens and exterior of my home to look nice. There are no visible utilities, no external waste/vent stacks or pipes, no cables on walls, the bins are hidden, no TV aerial, and all that that of thing.
Fitting AC would result in both the hideous external condensing units, but worse, presumably the coolant lines would have to be run all the way up the outside of the wall from ground level to loft level where they would then enter and be routed to where the internal AC units were.
I note that it was mentioned by Panamax that you can mount the condenser units in the loft, but then surely the issue of heat build up in the loft becomes a thing.
I appreciate I'm trying to have my cake and eat it, but I guess it was worth asking the hive mind of PH.
Any flat roofs the condensors could sit on & be hidden by parapets from ground level view?Thanks people. Seems like even asking an AC engineering business about this sort of thing will result in me just getting funny looks...
Yes, the wall mounted interior units of a split system are ugly, but the fact you have to have even uglier external units is what is putting me off. I have spent a lot of time, effort and money getting the gardens and exterior of my home to look nice. There are no visible utilities, no external waste/vent stacks or pipes, no cables on walls, the bins are hidden, no TV aerial, and all that that of thing.
Fitting AC would result in both the hideous external condensing units, but worse, presumably the coolant lines would have to be run all the way up the outside of the wall from ground level to loft level where they would then enter and be routed to where the internal AC units were.
I note that it was mentioned by Panamax that you can mount the condenser units in the loft, but then surely the issue of heat build up in the loft becomes a thing.
I appreciate I'm trying to have my cake and eat it, but I guess it was worth asking the hive mind of PH.
Re internal units, are there any rooms adjacent to where you want the air-con where you could hide the unit with a suspended ceiling & just have a slot grille to the room itself
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