Discussion
My theory is that many performance cars of 2017-2019 perhaps represent the pinnacle of [achievable] motoring enjoyment.
New enough to be extremely well designed, reliable, relatively rust proof, hugely safe and comparatively fuel efficient.
Safe with abs, traction, park sensors, sat nav, Bluetooth. Cheap to tax at £195 per annum [as opposed to £785 for all interesting pre 17 cars].
Slightly later and many spoilt with DPF/GPF to kill the exhaust noise, plus an increasing myriad of active safety systems.
For sure a late 90’s TVR or a McLaren f1, are both next level driver involvement but either unaffordable or lacking in points above.
Thoughts?
robemcdonald said:
2000-2015 is the era you are looking for.
Daily drivable, reliable, but crucially not over burdened with nannying technology.
Annoyingly though subject to the most punitive tax rules..
I guess it’s the 02-17 high road tax of £772-£798 that pit me off, the 17/ 67/ 18/ 68 cars were not over burdened with nannying tech, didn’t have gpf, get cheap tax, are new enough for parts to not be an issue, hence why that era for me is very appealing.Daily drivable, reliable, but crucially not over burdened with nannying technology.
Annoyingly though subject to the most punitive tax rules..
bennno said:
I guess it’s the 02-17 high road tax of £772-£798 that pit me off, the 17/ 67/ 18/ 68 cars were not over burdened with nannying tech, didn’t have gpf, get cheap tax, are new enough for parts to not be an issue, hence why that era for me is very appealing.
Good points. For me that later era bought in electric power steering, smaller capacity turbo engines and increased complexity with a lot of hybrid and 48v mild hybrid stuff.That said I’d deffo have a 991.2 Carrera T…
robemcdonald said:
Good points. For me that later era bought in electric power steering, smaller capacity turbo engines and increased complexity with a lot of hybrid and 48v mild hybrid stuff.
That said I’d deffo have a 991.2 Carrera T…
From slightly later I’ve had a 992.1T which oddly was a 23 but had none of the nanny tech, a 23 296 that also has none of it…. But both have a few more years of high car tax left.That said I’d deffo have a 991.2 Carrera T…
From the era in question I had a 720S, Ftype 5.0, Aston Vantage 4.0 - all fantastic. Cheap to tax, heavily pre depreciated.
bennno said:
My theory is that many performance cars of 2017-2019 perhaps represent the pinnacle of [achievable] motoring enjoyment.
New enough to be extremely well designed, reliable, relatively rust proof, hugely safe and comparatively fuel efficient.
Safe with abs, traction, park sensors, sat nav, Bluetooth. Cheap to tax at £195 per annum [as opposed to £785 for all interesting pre 17 cars].
Slightly later and many spoilt with DPF/GPF to kill the exhaust noise, plus an increasing myriad of active safety systems.
For sure a late 90’s TVR or a McLaren f1, are both next level driver involvement but either unaffordable or lacking in points above.
Thoughts?
Yep, agreed. New enough to be extremely well designed, reliable, relatively rust proof, hugely safe and comparatively fuel efficient.
Safe with abs, traction, park sensors, sat nav, Bluetooth. Cheap to tax at £195 per annum [as opposed to £785 for all interesting pre 17 cars].
Slightly later and many spoilt with DPF/GPF to kill the exhaust noise, plus an increasing myriad of active safety systems.
For sure a late 90’s TVR or a McLaren f1, are both next level driver involvement but either unaffordable or lacking in points above.
Thoughts?
The earlier road tax reference to £772 - £798 is a bit strange. And not from 2002 either.
Maximum VED for cars registered from 1/4/2001 to March 22nd 2006 is £430 (at the moment). Bands L and M only shot up after budget day (March 23rd) 2006.
A car that benefitted greatly from the 2017 change, was the Nissan 370Z. £195 instead of £760. The RRP was £39k so didn't have the luxury tax either. Nearly bought a 1 year old one in 2021 in the 2nd lock down. Same car is more now.
Maximum VED for cars registered from 1/4/2001 to March 22nd 2006 is £430 (at the moment). Bands L and M only shot up after budget day (March 23rd) 2006.
A car that benefitted greatly from the 2017 change, was the Nissan 370Z. £195 instead of £760. The RRP was £39k so didn't have the luxury tax either. Nearly bought a 1 year old one in 2021 in the 2nd lock down. Same car is more now.
bennno said:
My theory is that many performance cars of 2017-2019 perhaps represent the pinnacle of [achievable] motoring enjoyment.
New enough to be extremely well designed, reliable, relatively rust proof, hugely safe and comparatively fuel efficient.
Safe with abs, traction, park sensors, sat nav, Bluetooth. Cheap to tax at £195 per annum [as opposed to £785 for all interesting pre 17 cars].
Slightly later and many spoilt with DPF/GPF to kill the exhaust noise, plus an increasing myriad of active safety systems.
For sure a late 90’s TVR or a McLaren f1, are both next level driver involvement but either unaffordable or lacking in points above.
Thoughts?
In most respects I agree with you, especially in relation to family cars. Reading about your recent Aston purchase had me surfing the classifieds. I also keep looking at McLaren's.New enough to be extremely well designed, reliable, relatively rust proof, hugely safe and comparatively fuel efficient.
Safe with abs, traction, park sensors, sat nav, Bluetooth. Cheap to tax at £195 per annum [as opposed to £785 for all interesting pre 17 cars].
Slightly later and many spoilt with DPF/GPF to kill the exhaust noise, plus an increasing myriad of active safety systems.
For sure a late 90’s TVR or a McLaren f1, are both next level driver involvement but either unaffordable or lacking in points above.
Thoughts?
The 'but' for me, and perhaps it's because of my age, is that modern high performance cars just aren't useable on the road imo. You need to be going silly fast to enjoy the cars dynamics. That's why I'm thinking 1970's Italian for my next road driving thrills (and tears!).
I have a 2018 R8 RWS which I bought new. I never expected to keep it this long however as time has progressed and other nice cars, mainly Porsche GT cars have come and gone it’s the one I have held onto. I am at the point now where I will probably never sell it until I stop driving whereupon I will give it to one of the kids. There is absolutely nothing new that I fancy at the moment, I have nothing on order, I am not on any “waiting lists” I am not kissing any dealers arses It’s a fantastic feeling if a touch sad.
The R8 has sports exhaust with no GPF, no stop start, no “driving aids” except ABS, and stability,control which can be fully disabled at one button press, no unnecessary bongs, In short as the OP stated it’s perfect, all the positive features with none of the annoying s
t. The virtual cockpit interface is excellent, quite a few physical buttons for day to day stuff, no haptic bks, good connectivity. In short it’s bloody lovely.
I have some older stuff to remind me what manual gearboxes and really good steering feels like, just as a handy benchmark. But yes my R8 for me is simply peak car.
The R8 has sports exhaust with no GPF, no stop start, no “driving aids” except ABS, and stability,control which can be fully disabled at one button press, no unnecessary bongs, In short as the OP stated it’s perfect, all the positive features with none of the annoying s
t. The virtual cockpit interface is excellent, quite a few physical buttons for day to day stuff, no haptic bks, good connectivity. In short it’s bloody lovely.I have some older stuff to remind me what manual gearboxes and really good steering feels like, just as a handy benchmark. But yes my R8 for me is simply peak car.
I think this is always so subjective and imho often suffers from a case of rose tinted glasses reflecting on our best years (when we were young’uns). Have had and driven a fun and varied selection of cars over the last 3 decades and enjoyed pretty much all of them. My conclusions are that the most visceral driver’s cars are the no compromise likes of Caterhams and Elise’s with zero driver aids or assistance where every input feels like you’re directly connected to the road. The best daily drivers are the most recent EVs which just make the daily grind effortless and cheap and throw in a healthy dose of responsive performance to boot.
Chris
Chris
Edited by ScoobyChris on Sunday 17th August 21:15
post '17 still has too much flab/detachment/interference for my liking. for sure the technology, materials, design, engineering and manufacturing had greatly improved but the priorities of H&S and comfort had dominated too much by then. Great for dailies but fun cars suffered. The reliable and *relatively* comfortable Elise couldn't sell more than a handful.
I do agree about the 06-16 VED issue. as more years pass I think this will hurt values as people realise it would cost over 7k in VED alone to keep an older fun car for 10yrs. lightweights aren't as badly affected and 2000-2005 still has 400 tax for big engines.
for fun and involvement, but still safe and reliable I vote for late nineties to 2010.
I do agree about the 06-16 VED issue. as more years pass I think this will hurt values as people realise it would cost over 7k in VED alone to keep an older fun car for 10yrs. lightweights aren't as badly affected and 2000-2005 still has 400 tax for big engines.
for fun and involvement, but still safe and reliable I vote for late nineties to 2010.
Peak was before every car had to have an ipad glued to the dash, stop start technology and nanny state Lane departure, speedi warnings and autonomous braking.
Before the main concern with engines was emissions and we ended up with all the 3 cylinder wet belt nonscence where engines would barely last 60k miles.
Before the main concern with engines was emissions and we ended up with all the 3 cylinder wet belt nonscence where engines would barely last 60k miles.
1990's for me.
The best:
911 was the 993.
M5 was the E39.
Small hot hatch was the Saxo / 106.
Medium hot hatch was the 306 GTi6.
Rally hot hatch was either the Lancia Delta Integrale Evo or the Escort Cosworth.
Family cars was the Volvo V70R / V70XC.
Jag was the X308 XJR.
Aston Martin was the V550 Vantage.
Ferrari was the 355 & 550.
Lamborghini was the Diablo SV.
Hyper car was the McLaren F1.
The 2000's have a lot going for them, and peak Range Rover wasn't reached until the late L322 / L405.
But for enthusiast cars the 90's are Peak because passive safety hadn't become more important than other design considerations, including safety items such as visibility and light weight.
Interactivity wasn't a thing.
No screens.
The best:
911 was the 993.
M5 was the E39.
Small hot hatch was the Saxo / 106.
Medium hot hatch was the 306 GTi6.
Rally hot hatch was either the Lancia Delta Integrale Evo or the Escort Cosworth.
Family cars was the Volvo V70R / V70XC.
Jag was the X308 XJR.
Aston Martin was the V550 Vantage.
Ferrari was the 355 & 550.
Lamborghini was the Diablo SV.
Hyper car was the McLaren F1.
The 2000's have a lot going for them, and peak Range Rover wasn't reached until the late L322 / L405.
But for enthusiast cars the 90's are Peak because passive safety hadn't become more important than other design considerations, including safety items such as visibility and light weight.
Interactivity wasn't a thing.
No screens.
Thinking back to my '96 RX-7, the combination of a cable throttle (so 1:1 relationship between foot position and throttle opening), HPAS, the small dimensions, <1300kg weight, low seating position and scuttle, big windows with thin pillars, & manual gearbox all together made it a distinctly different experience to modern cars. So I may tentatively vote 90s.
To some extent the bigger the budget the later you can go; eg you can still get reasonably light McLarens with HPAS, you can get a GMA T.33 with a nat-asp V12 and that is small and light, etc. But for more affordable money, the distance a modern car puts between the driver and the road significantly reduces your engagement in the act of driving.
Gassing Station | Car Buying | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff