Binned the Spyder's Cup 2s....gone to PS4S....hooray!
Discussion
After suffering the Cup 2s for long enough, I finally had them changed for a set of Michelin PS4Ss.
- Immediately noticeable improvement in ride quality - less harsh on coarse surfaces and small sharp-edged bumps (repairs, manhole covers etc)
- Steering feel definitely better, with proper self-centreing rather than the dead feeling with the Cup 2s which always seemed to need constant small corrections to maintain a straight line.
Alignment was within spec when adjusted about 3 k miles ago.
However.....I wonder if they need some time to "scrub in", or perhaps the OPC has failed to balance the wheel/tyre assembly properly.
From about 70 upwards (on a private road..) there is a noticeable feeling of slight imbalance, through the steering wheel and through the seat.
Looking at the rear wheels, there are an awful lot of balance weights now in place - far more than were there pre-change. You can see that in one of the photos, with the outline of the previous, removed weight being visible in one shot.
55gm on left rear wheel.
35gm on right rear wheel
(Not too impressed at the method of removal, tbh, with obvious metal:metal contact.....am I OCD?)
So - should I leave it for a few more miles (only done about 40 so far) to see if there is an improvement after scrubbing in, or just ask for a proper re-balance?
- Immediately noticeable improvement in ride quality - less harsh on coarse surfaces and small sharp-edged bumps (repairs, manhole covers etc)
- Steering feel definitely better, with proper self-centreing rather than the dead feeling with the Cup 2s which always seemed to need constant small corrections to maintain a straight line.
Alignment was within spec when adjusted about 3 k miles ago.
However.....I wonder if they need some time to "scrub in", or perhaps the OPC has failed to balance the wheel/tyre assembly properly.
From about 70 upwards (on a private road..) there is a noticeable feeling of slight imbalance, through the steering wheel and through the seat.
Looking at the rear wheels, there are an awful lot of balance weights now in place - far more than were there pre-change. You can see that in one of the photos, with the outline of the previous, removed weight being visible in one shot.
55gm on left rear wheel.
35gm on right rear wheel
(Not too impressed at the method of removal, tbh, with obvious metal:metal contact.....am I OCD?)
So - should I leave it for a few more miles (only done about 40 so far) to see if there is an improvement after scrubbing in, or just ask for a proper re-balance?
Edited by Tony B2 on Monday 18th August 14:26
Edited by Tony B2 on Monday 18th August 14:51
I previously did a similar switch on mine. Don't know where you're based but this might be a good time to take it to Center Gravity
They're masters of wheel and chassis optimising - and you're almost certainly going to leave happy and reassured that the car is as good as it possibly can be for whatever you tell them to work towards
They're masters of wheel and chassis optimising - and you're almost certainly going to leave happy and reassured that the car is as good as it possibly can be for whatever you tell them to work towards
crystalmethod said:
I previously did a similar switch on mine. Don't know where you're based but this might be a good time to take it to Center Gravity
They're masters of wheel and chassis optimising - and you're almost certainly going to leave happy and reassured that the car is as good as it possibly can be for whatever you tell them to work towards
I have been to CG for some optimising, and they did a good job, but they are a fair trek from me (I am in Hampshire).They're masters of wheel and chassis optimising - and you're almost certainly going to leave happy and reassured that the car is as good as it possibly can be for whatever you tell them to work towards
My OPC did query their set-up, when the car was with them for a service, saying it was outside Porsche spec and would therefore threaten the warranty....
To be fair - the OPC "pre" measurements (only about 800 miles after CG did their thing) did show very different numbers from the CG "after" numbers.
So, someone's test equipment is not quite right...
I acquiesced and let them set within spec, rather than store an excuse for a warranty rejection later.
Edited by Tony B2 on Monday 18th August 15:04
Edited by Tony B2 on Monday 18th August 15:27
Are MP4S not an 'inside' and an 'outside' type of tyre?
I thought all tyres had (at least one of) the dots, and they were on the outer wall (or either if non-directional) as tyres are fitted to the wheel which sits 'that way up' on the machine. This allows the fitter to easily align the yellow dot with the valve stem or red dot with the wheel low point (small dimple in the metal) or the valve stem..... hang on...
found a mostly useful article
I thought all tyres had (at least one of) the dots, and they were on the outer wall (or either if non-directional) as tyres are fitted to the wheel which sits 'that way up' on the machine. This allows the fitter to easily align the yellow dot with the valve stem or red dot with the wheel low point (small dimple in the metal) or the valve stem..... hang on...
found a mostly useful article
internet said:
The Yellow Dot
When tyres are made, they are almost never perfectly balanced, and most manufacturers will place a yellow dot on the section of the tyre where there is least weight. When fitting a tyre, you should line up this yellow dot with the valve stem as this is the heaviest point of the wheel. By aligning the lightest spot on the tyre with the heaviest point on the wheel, the tyre/wheel balance is as close to optimal as can be. So, you won’t use as many weights around the wheel to balance out the tyre and wheel. Fewer weights make for a more balanced wheel, which then means a quieter, more comfortable ride, and a longer-lasting tyre.
The Red Dot
In the same way that tyres are never perfectly balanced from the manufacturer, tyres are never perfectly round either, even when new. They have high and low points which occur where the belts are joined, and these points can cause vibrations when a tyre is rolling. The red dot indicates the tyre’s high point. Most of the time a wheel will also have a dot—either a drilled dot or a sticker to indicate its low point; if you have these marks, you should align the red dot with the mark on the wheel and ignore the yellow dot. By doing this you minimise the vibration caused by the high point of the tyre
Red over Yellow
If both red and yellow dots are visible on your tyre and you don’t have any dots or marks on your wheel, red takes precedence over yellow and you should align the red dot with the valve stem. Cancelling out the high point takes precedence over the lightest point of the tyre, which can be addressed with wheel weights.
When tyres are made, they are almost never perfectly balanced, and most manufacturers will place a yellow dot on the section of the tyre where there is least weight. When fitting a tyre, you should line up this yellow dot with the valve stem as this is the heaviest point of the wheel. By aligning the lightest spot on the tyre with the heaviest point on the wheel, the tyre/wheel balance is as close to optimal as can be. So, you won’t use as many weights around the wheel to balance out the tyre and wheel. Fewer weights make for a more balanced wheel, which then means a quieter, more comfortable ride, and a longer-lasting tyre.
The Red Dot
In the same way that tyres are never perfectly balanced from the manufacturer, tyres are never perfectly round either, even when new. They have high and low points which occur where the belts are joined, and these points can cause vibrations when a tyre is rolling. The red dot indicates the tyre’s high point. Most of the time a wheel will also have a dot—either a drilled dot or a sticker to indicate its low point; if you have these marks, you should align the red dot with the mark on the wheel and ignore the yellow dot. By doing this you minimise the vibration caused by the high point of the tyre
Red over Yellow
If both red and yellow dots are visible on your tyre and you don’t have any dots or marks on your wheel, red takes precedence over yellow and you should align the red dot with the valve stem. Cancelling out the high point takes precedence over the lightest point of the tyre, which can be addressed with wheel weights.
Edited by Orangecurry on Monday 18th August 16:06
crystalmethod said:
I previously did a similar switch on mine. Don't know where you're based but this might be a good time to take it to Center Gravity
They're masters of wheel and chassis optimising - and you're almost certainly going to leave happy and reassured that the car is as good as it possibly can be for whatever you tell them to work towards
CG have a Hunter Road Force machine now which, incidentally, is what I would use next in the OP's case. The wheels are obviously poorly balanced. A rim match (high and low spots) and Road Force is the only way to a) be sure the wheel and tyres are in spec and b) get that new car silky smooth ride. I have 305 PS4Ss on the back on my 997 and after HRF balance (at Litchfield's) one wheel has 10g on it and the other nothing - the first time in over 40 years that I have ever had a fully balanced wheel/tyre with NO weights. And, yes, it is as smooth as silk.They're masters of wheel and chassis optimising - and you're almost certainly going to leave happy and reassured that the car is as good as it possibly can be for whatever you tell them to work towards
Tony B2 said:
...I am in Hampshire
I was going to suggest Micheldever Tyres, as IIRC they were one of the first garages to have some kind of Hunter (certainly proper 4-wheel alignment), waaaaaay back when. They were certainly the go-to in Hampshire for tyres and alignment, but their website suggests they may have dumbed-down since I was last there (probably in the 1990s 
)well done on making the switch, for the road its a no brainer and I'm also a PS4 from cup2 convert!
The only time I had that many weights installed on a wheel was where I had a small buckle and they had tried to balance the wheel (unsuccessfully). Got the wheel straightened and all good.
The only time I had that many weights installed on a wheel was where I had a small buckle and they had tried to balance the wheel (unsuccessfully). Got the wheel straightened and all good.
Orangecurry said:
I was going to suggest Micheldever Tyres, as IIRC they were one of the first garages to have some kind of Hunter (certainly proper 4-wheel alignment), waaaaaay back when. They were certainly the go-to in Hampshire for tyres and alignment, but their website suggests they may have dumbed-down since I was last there (probably in the 1990s )
I used them when they had a "premium service" (for +£10 per tyre?) with the same fitter working on the car from beginning to end of the process, but this disappeared a few years ago. )I stopped using them when I watched the fitter (who knew I was only a few feet away), literally kick one of my wheels off the car, with the wheel hitting the disc, then the arch and then the floor (from about 3ft above the ground).
If that is their level of care and professionalism, no thank you!
Orangecurry said:
Are MP4S not an 'inside' and an 'outside' type of tyre?
I thought all tyres had (at least one of) the dots, and they were on the outer wall (or either if non-directional) as tyres are fitted to the wheel which sits 'that way up' on the machine. This allows the fitter to easily align the yellow dot with the valve stem or red dot with the wheel low point (small dimple in the metal) or the valve stem..... hang on...
found a mostly useful article
Really interesting, thank you for sharing.I thought all tyres had (at least one of) the dots, and they were on the outer wall (or either if non-directional) as tyres are fitted to the wheel which sits 'that way up' on the machine. This allows the fitter to easily align the yellow dot with the valve stem or red dot with the wheel low point (small dimple in the metal) or the valve stem..... hang on...
found a mostly useful article
internet said:
The Yellow Dot
When tyres are made, they are almost never perfectly balanced, and most manufacturers will place a yellow dot on the section of the tyre where there is least weight. When fitting a tyre, you should line up this yellow dot with the valve stem as this is the heaviest point of the wheel. By aligning the lightest spot on the tyre with the heaviest point on the wheel, the tyre/wheel balance is as close to optimal as can be. So, you won’t use as many weights around the wheel to balance out the tyre and wheel. Fewer weights make for a more balanced wheel, which then means a quieter, more comfortable ride, and a longer-lasting tyre.
The Red Dot
In the same way that tyres are never perfectly balanced from the manufacturer, tyres are never perfectly round either, even when new. They have high and low points which occur where the belts are joined, and these points can cause vibrations when a tyre is rolling. The red dot indicates the tyre’s high point. Most of the time a wheel will also have a dot—either a drilled dot or a sticker to indicate its low point; if you have these marks, you should align the red dot with the mark on the wheel and ignore the yellow dot. By doing this you minimise the vibration caused by the high point of the tyre
Red over Yellow
If both red and yellow dots are visible on your tyre and you don’t have any dots or marks on your wheel, red takes precedence over yellow and you should align the red dot with the valve stem. Cancelling out the high point takes precedence over the lightest point of the tyre, which can be addressed with wheel weights.
When tyres are made, they are almost never perfectly balanced, and most manufacturers will place a yellow dot on the section of the tyre where there is least weight. When fitting a tyre, you should line up this yellow dot with the valve stem as this is the heaviest point of the wheel. By aligning the lightest spot on the tyre with the heaviest point on the wheel, the tyre/wheel balance is as close to optimal as can be. So, you won’t use as many weights around the wheel to balance out the tyre and wheel. Fewer weights make for a more balanced wheel, which then means a quieter, more comfortable ride, and a longer-lasting tyre.
The Red Dot
In the same way that tyres are never perfectly balanced from the manufacturer, tyres are never perfectly round either, even when new. They have high and low points which occur where the belts are joined, and these points can cause vibrations when a tyre is rolling. The red dot indicates the tyre’s high point. Most of the time a wheel will also have a dot—either a drilled dot or a sticker to indicate its low point; if you have these marks, you should align the red dot with the mark on the wheel and ignore the yellow dot. By doing this you minimise the vibration caused by the high point of the tyre
Red over Yellow
If both red and yellow dots are visible on your tyre and you don’t have any dots or marks on your wheel, red takes precedence over yellow and you should align the red dot with the valve stem. Cancelling out the high point takes precedence over the lightest point of the tyre, which can be addressed with wheel weights.
Edited by Orangecurry on Monday 18th August 16:06
I will have a closer look at the shoulders for drilled dots.
And the wheels.
If you have any pictures of the drilled variety on the tyre, or equivalent on the wheel, please share
The dimple, mark, or sticker-from-new is ONLY on the wheel, and often not there at all, from my understanding.
The tyres have the yellow and/or red dots - all this info combined should be enough to get the best fit and least weights-added.
But as suggested above, you may have a slightly bent wheel, and no coloured-dot is going to help with that.
The tyres have the yellow and/or red dots - all this info combined should be enough to get the best fit and least weights-added.
But as suggested above, you may have a slightly bent wheel, and no coloured-dot is going to help with that.
Tony B2 said:
Orangecurry said:
Are MP4S not an 'inside' and an 'outside' type of tyre?
I thought all tyres had (at least one of) the dots, and they were on the outer wall (or either if non-directional) as tyres are fitted to the wheel which sits 'that way up' on the machine. This allows the fitter to easily align the yellow dot with the valve stem or red dot with the wheel low point (small dimple in the metal) or the valve stem..... hang on...
found a mostly useful article
Really interesting, thank you for sharing.I thought all tyres had (at least one of) the dots, and they were on the outer wall (or either if non-directional) as tyres are fitted to the wheel which sits 'that way up' on the machine. This allows the fitter to easily align the yellow dot with the valve stem or red dot with the wheel low point (small dimple in the metal) or the valve stem..... hang on...
found a mostly useful article
internet said:
The Yellow Dot
When tyres are made, they are almost never perfectly balanced, and most manufacturers will place a yellow dot on the section of the tyre where there is least weight. When fitting a tyre, you should line up this yellow dot with the valve stem as this is the heaviest point of the wheel. By aligning the lightest spot on the tyre with the heaviest point on the wheel, the tyre/wheel balance is as close to optimal as can be. So, you won’t use as many weights around the wheel to balance out the tyre and wheel. Fewer weights make for a more balanced wheel, which then means a quieter, more comfortable ride, and a longer-lasting tyre.
The Red Dot
In the same way that tyres are never perfectly balanced from the manufacturer, tyres are never perfectly round either, even when new. They have high and low points which occur where the belts are joined, and these points can cause vibrations when a tyre is rolling. The red dot indicates the tyre’s high point. Most of the time a wheel will also have a dot—either a drilled dot or a sticker to indicate its low point; if you have these marks, you should align the red dot with the mark on the wheel and ignore the yellow dot. By doing this you minimise the vibration caused by the high point of the tyre
Red over Yellow
If both red and yellow dots are visible on your tyre and you don’t have any dots or marks on your wheel, red takes precedence over yellow and you should align the red dot with the valve stem. Cancelling out the high point takes precedence over the lightest point of the tyre, which can be addressed with wheel weights.
When tyres are made, they are almost never perfectly balanced, and most manufacturers will place a yellow dot on the section of the tyre where there is least weight. When fitting a tyre, you should line up this yellow dot with the valve stem as this is the heaviest point of the wheel. By aligning the lightest spot on the tyre with the heaviest point on the wheel, the tyre/wheel balance is as close to optimal as can be. So, you won’t use as many weights around the wheel to balance out the tyre and wheel. Fewer weights make for a more balanced wheel, which then means a quieter, more comfortable ride, and a longer-lasting tyre.
The Red Dot
In the same way that tyres are never perfectly balanced from the manufacturer, tyres are never perfectly round either, even when new. They have high and low points which occur where the belts are joined, and these points can cause vibrations when a tyre is rolling. The red dot indicates the tyre’s high point. Most of the time a wheel will also have a dot—either a drilled dot or a sticker to indicate its low point; if you have these marks, you should align the red dot with the mark on the wheel and ignore the yellow dot. By doing this you minimise the vibration caused by the high point of the tyre
Red over Yellow
If both red and yellow dots are visible on your tyre and you don’t have any dots or marks on your wheel, red takes precedence over yellow and you should align the red dot with the valve stem. Cancelling out the high point takes precedence over the lightest point of the tyre, which can be addressed with wheel weights.
Edited by Orangecurry on Monday 18th August 16:06
I will have a closer look at the shoulders for drilled dots.
And the wheels.
If you have any pictures of the drilled variety on the tyre, or equivalent on the wheel, please share
However, the ONLY time that any tyre fitter has fitted the dots adjacent to the valve stem when fitting my new tyres was by a small local tyre fitter who specialised in motorcycle tyres and was fitting to the diminutive wheels of my '73 Mini ...
Literally nobody else has ... should they be respectfully asked (told) to ??
ChrisW. said:
Literally nobody else has ... should they be respectfully asked (told) to ??
Bonkers isn't it. Either they don't know, or they don't care. The problem with respectfully talking to them is that they could get upset.Not ideal. All that metal and levering next to your soft, painted alloys.
The same everywhere - there are two kinds of people; ones that do a job only to pay the bills, and ones that also take pride in their work.
Wheel refurbish specialists usually know to do this, especially as it make them look good when the wheels have so few weights on them. They will IME also just fit tyres, especially if you've used them in the past for refurbs.
The op had the best tyres for the car but didn't like them, so binned them off for what the internet says are the best tyres by some margin: the MP4S.
But the op can't gel with them, there's something wrong with the internet tyre champion. No worries, get them balanced again; spend ££££ at an alignment shop, and then all will be well. It wasn't necessary with the Cup 2s that they were pleased to get rid of, right?
Ok Cup 2's are harsh on some surfaces, but they're the best tyres (summer) for these cars by some margin. The turn-in alone is worth the hassle in my view. But they're not for everyone.
But the op can't gel with them, there's something wrong with the internet tyre champion. No worries, get them balanced again; spend ££££ at an alignment shop, and then all will be well. It wasn't necessary with the Cup 2s that they were pleased to get rid of, right?
Ok Cup 2's are harsh on some surfaces, but they're the best tyres (summer) for these cars by some margin. The turn-in alone is worth the hassle in my view. But they're not for everyone.
maz8062 said:
The op had the best tyres for the car but didn't like them, so binned them off for what the internet says are the best tyres by some margin: the MP4S.
But the op can't gel with them, there's something wrong with the internet tyre champion. No worries, get them balanced again; spend ££££ at an alignment shop, and then all will be well. It wasn't necessary with the Cup 2s that they were pleased to get rid of, right?
Ok Cup 2's are harsh on some surfaces, but they're the best tyres (summer) for these cars by some margin. The turn-in alone is worth the hassle in my view. But they're not for everyone.
For track agree but on road ps4's are simply more fun. I'm not interested in outright grip on the road. The car rides so much better and now reaching the edge of grip whether wet or dry is both predictable and fun. The tyre engineers really do know what they are doing and for the rd....buy the rd tyre.But the op can't gel with them, there's something wrong with the internet tyre champion. No worries, get them balanced again; spend ££££ at an alignment shop, and then all will be well. It wasn't necessary with the Cup 2s that they were pleased to get rid of, right?
Ok Cup 2's are harsh on some surfaces, but they're the best tyres (summer) for these cars by some margin. The turn-in alone is worth the hassle in my view. But they're not for everyone.
I ordered one my Spyders new with the sports tyre option ticked which replaced the Cup 2 tyres with PS4. So that tyre is a fully approved OE equipment tyre assuming they are N marked. There is no difference in geometry settings between the two OE tyre specs as far am I am aware. I had my car set up by Matt at Fernsport and it was great on the PS4s. A very slight loss of bite at the front in optimal (warm and dry) conditions compared to Cup 2s however night and day better in all other conditions especially in the wet. It’s a far superior tyre for the car if you’re not a track day bunny, and let’s face it a Spyder is not really ideal for the track anyway. A noticeably better ride on the PS4.
As for the balance weights, that is not acceptable for a top end tyre, they aren’t ditchfinders. I would be straight back and ask the tyre fitters nicely to have another go. If it turns out to really need that much to balance the tyre (you can check the wheels without tyres first) then I would be onto Michelin asking for their opinion.
Keep us posted.
As for the balance weights, that is not acceptable for a top end tyre, they aren’t ditchfinders. I would be straight back and ask the tyre fitters nicely to have another go. If it turns out to really need that much to balance the tyre (you can check the wheels without tyres first) then I would be onto Michelin asking for their opinion.
Keep us posted.
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