Problems with Dads Will & likely outcome
Discussion
Hello people, my dad passed away on the last day of January this year, yes it was bloody awful but the point of this post isn’t to dwell on that too much.
For context, mum died march 2023 and she left everything to dad in her Will. The time after losing my mum was made unnecessarily miserable for him and myself by having to wait 18months for Probate to be granted. It was finally received late November ‘24. It was a relief to finally receive it and we tentatively set about notifying the banks and various financial institutions that accounts and investments were to be released or placed solely in dad’s name. We were nearing the end of that process late January we dad sadly succumbed to his health issues and was gone ! Everything becomes pending probate one again……yeah, I know, they really love to kick you when you are down !!
Myself and a family friend are once again executors to my fathers Will as we were to my mum so between us we decided to do Probate on a DiY basis again. Fast forward to now, seven months later, our Probate application is ready. It’s taken a long while as my mum had many accounts and investments aswell as two buy to let properties and their main residence. Net value of the estate we’ve arrived at is a staggering £2.1 million. How they achieved this from humble beginnings is a mystery to me but that’s by the by. In regards to inheritance tax we were advised a deadline was looming and to avoid accruing interest we should send a payment on account to HMRC. My Co executor panicked a bit and authorised the release of £525k to HMRC. I’m not sure I would have sent so much but what’s done is done.
And so to my fathers Will. There are four beneficiaries to the estate, myself and two Romanian girls that my parents found living in a shipping container in Bucharest back in the 90’s, one of them had a young son, just a toddler at the time. My parents brought the three of them home to England. This is what my folks were like, I guess you could say it was their calling to rescue the less fortunate. I always assumed this young trio were fostered as my parents have fostered other kids at various times, but it’s come to light in recent weeks that at the time they arrived in the Uk they were a touch too old for the fostering system. Under what premise my mum got them into the Uk I don’t actually know but my point is that my dad has named them in his Will. Now apparently, and I can’t make much sense of this, if you leave your main residence to direct descendants that’s fine and fostered children are within that scope but I’ve been advised that with them not being fostered I’m going to be denied each of my parents £175k residential nil rate band……if I’m understanding correctly that’s an additional £350k that’s going to get hit for 40% - £140,000. That’s painful news to receive !
Does anyone know if there’s any way I can sidestep this disaster ? I can’t help but feel that whoever my dad went to for Will writing either gave bad advice or failed to give good advice when they didn’t ask for proof of fostering. I guess it’s inevitable that someone will ask why didn’t my dad know they weren’t fostered but honestly I think that after many years of being asked how they came to be part of my family that saying they were fostered was an easy and convenient way to explain, so much so that he believed it himself in the end !
All of that is bad enough but there’s more as included in the Will there is a hand written ‘Explanation of my Will’ in which he writes that the two buy to let properties are for me and all that remains after that is to be split four ways so 25% to me and the same to the two young women and 25% to the toddler who is now 19. Removing the two buy to let’s leaves approx £1 million for distribution. I have to say that if I could speak to him now he would agree that giving this 19yr old boy £250 is borderline irresponsible and not in his best interests, though I can think of one person who might disagree lol. Also this letter of explanation hasn’t been signed by my dad or witnessed so not sure what the implications of that may be. As a footnote dad has written that the boy shouldn’t receive his share until his mother is unable to receive her share and I’ve no idea what he meant by that. When her money runs out or when she dies ? I’ve no idea. He also states that once the money is available for distribution that they won’t receive direct payment but their combined shares will go into a discretionary Trust with any payout having to be approved by me or my Co executor. That’s probably the most sensible part of the whole thing as they aren’t all that worldly wise.
My feeling is that the Will should be rewritten leaving everything to me and let me do the right thing by them which I will do but I’ve no idea if that’s even possible ?
Obviously all of this will be going before a solicitor at some point but it’s taking so long to get an appointment and in the meantime I’m getting very little sleep as all this churns over in my mind so any wisdom anyone can offer will be gratefully received ! I know my mum should have taken steps to protect the estate from inheritance tax and I believe it was on her agenda but pancreatic cancer took her so swiftly that it never happened…..
Edited by spiritof76 on Tuesday 19th August 06:43
I can't give advise, but some folk do tend to leave complications behind when they die, my mother included. What can sound like a nice idea to them when alive, can be extremely complex for others to administer when dead. I aim to really simplify things for when my time comes to make it as easy as possible for my son.
The letter sounds like a 'letter of wishes' which can be placed alongside a will.
However, it can't contradict the will and they're not legally enforceable, and that's before the fact that it isn't signed or witnessed.
There's a summary of their dos and don'ts - https://averywalters.com/blog/dos-and-donts-of-a-l...
I'd search high and low for a legal/ tax opinion ASAP. That's all something I'd want clarifying.
However, it can't contradict the will and they're not legally enforceable, and that's before the fact that it isn't signed or witnessed.
There's a summary of their dos and don'ts - https://averywalters.com/blog/dos-and-donts-of-a-l...
I'd search high and low for a legal/ tax opinion ASAP. That's all something I'd want clarifying.
Edited by bloomen on Tuesday 19th August 01:12
Firstly condolences for the loss of now both your Parents.
The RNRB allowance may be possible to still gain the benefit of or at least a proportion of relative to the amount of the house that has been left to you courtesy of the will ie if you have inherited 25% of the estate then that quantum might be claimable - I would be talking to a solicitor about this though.
HMRC do have some ability to negotiate on things like royalties in terms of how to assess and a solicitor should be aware of what conversations to have on the above.
On estates in excess of £2m if you do get the benefit of some of the RNRB though a taper affect then comes into play though.
If nothing allowable then on an estate of £2.10m less the combined £650k that is, the total IHT bill will be £580K.
As Executor you have to distribute the assets according to the will ( I am assuming you have the original copy of this ?)and this will takes precedent over any expression of wishes /explanations unsigned or otherwise.
You cannot rewrite the will in any way nor should you even try !
Interpretation of the unsigned expression of wishes is down to you as Executor but its the will that is the important document as knowing what your Father wanted to distribute.
The RNRB allowance may be possible to still gain the benefit of or at least a proportion of relative to the amount of the house that has been left to you courtesy of the will ie if you have inherited 25% of the estate then that quantum might be claimable - I would be talking to a solicitor about this though.
HMRC do have some ability to negotiate on things like royalties in terms of how to assess and a solicitor should be aware of what conversations to have on the above.
On estates in excess of £2m if you do get the benefit of some of the RNRB though a taper affect then comes into play though.
If nothing allowable then on an estate of £2.10m less the combined £650k that is, the total IHT bill will be £580K.
As Executor you have to distribute the assets according to the will ( I am assuming you have the original copy of this ?)and this will takes precedent over any expression of wishes /explanations unsigned or otherwise.
You cannot rewrite the will in any way nor should you even try !
Interpretation of the unsigned expression of wishes is down to you as Executor but its the will that is the important document as knowing what your Father wanted to distribute.
cashmax said:
Regarding the fostering - When you say they were too old, does that mean for the "official" fostering system? Did they live with your parents, in their house at any point?
Yes, that’s what I’ve been told and yes again, all three of them lived with my parents at their main residence for many years and in fact one of the girls and her 19yr old son are back there now ! Once she was in work and her son in education my mum helped them get a council flat but when mum died she insisted on moving back in with my dad to care for him…….for which I’m eternally grateful. But unfortunately as a result they lost the council flat and now they’re stuck there in limbo until I can sell the place once I receive probate……praying that won’t be 18 months again. To my mind they were fostered but as you say, just not officially alscar said:
Firstly condolences for the loss of now both your Parents.
The RNRB allowance may be possible to still gain the benefit of or at least a proportion of relative to the amount of the house that has been left to you courtesy of the will ie if you have inherited 25% of the estate then that quantum might be claimable - I would be talking to a solicitor about this though.
HMRC do have some ability to negotiate on things like royalties in terms of how to assess and a solicitor should be aware of what conversations to have on the above.
On estates in excess of £2m if you do get the benefit of some of the RNRB though a taper affect then comes into play though.
If nothing allowable then on an estate of £2.10m less the combined £650k that is, the total IHT bill will be £580K.
As Executor you have to distribute the assets according to the will ( I am assuming you have the original copy of this ?)and this will takes precedent over any expression of wishes /explanations unsigned or otherwise.
You cannot rewrite the will in any way nor should you even try !
Interpretation of the unsigned expression of wishes is down to you as Executor but its the will that is the important document as knowing what your Father wanted to distribute.
Thanks for condolences and input. £580k yikes ! I can’t allow that to happen, my hopes of early retirement up in smoke. I’ve got to find a way to reinstate the 1m allowance as it seems like pure evil to deny us that over such a petty argument about being officially fostered or not…..my parents brought them up as their own, put them through school and got them into work etc. and now want to take care of them and me after death. They couldn’t be more ‘descendant’……one of them has my parents names tattooed up her arm FFS ! Sorry I do get rather wound up about this lolThe RNRB allowance may be possible to still gain the benefit of or at least a proportion of relative to the amount of the house that has been left to you courtesy of the will ie if you have inherited 25% of the estate then that quantum might be claimable - I would be talking to a solicitor about this though.
HMRC do have some ability to negotiate on things like royalties in terms of how to assess and a solicitor should be aware of what conversations to have on the above.
On estates in excess of £2m if you do get the benefit of some of the RNRB though a taper affect then comes into play though.
If nothing allowable then on an estate of £2.10m less the combined £650k that is, the total IHT bill will be £580K.
As Executor you have to distribute the assets according to the will ( I am assuming you have the original copy of this ?)and this will takes precedent over any expression of wishes /explanations unsigned or otherwise.
You cannot rewrite the will in any way nor should you even try !
Interpretation of the unsigned expression of wishes is down to you as Executor but its the will that is the important document as knowing what your Father wanted to distribute.
spiritof76 said:
My feeling is that the Will should be rewritten leaving everything to me and let me do the right thing by them which I will do but I’ve no idea if that’s even possible ?
Yeah, you can't re-write a will when you've already died I'm afraid. You have to make sense of the one that's there.....You need proper legal advice from a will specialist. A motoring forum will send you every which way....
Muzzer79 said:
Yeah, you can't re-write a will when you've already died I'm afraid. You have to make sense of the one that's there.....
You need proper legal advice from a will specialist. A motoring forum will send you every which way....
I realised that was a nonsense when I proof read it but couldn’t be bothered to go back and edit lolYou need proper legal advice from a will specialist. A motoring forum will send you every which way....
Muzzer79 said:
spiritof76 said:
My feeling is that the Will should be rewritten leaving everything to me and let me do the right thing by them which I will do but I’ve no idea if that’s even possible ?
Yeah, you can't re-write a will when you've already died I'm afraid. You have to make sense of the one that's there..... not sure that's true? You need proper legal advice from a will specialist. A motoring forum will send you every which way.... very true
Muzzer79 said:
Yeah, you can't re-write a will when you've already died I'm afraid. You have to make sense of the one that's there.....
You need proper legal advice from a will specialist. A motoring forum will send you every which way....
I realised that was a nonsense when I proof read it but couldn’t be bothered to go back and edit lolYou need proper legal advice from a will specialist. A motoring forum will send you every which way....
spiritof76 said:
I have tentatively looked at that but I’m not sure at this stage…..sounds preferable to an outright contesting of the Will. Thanks
If everyone's on board then there's no real issue. If I remember rightly it can only be done once so it needs to be carefully thought out. Yes, aware of the limitations of a motoring forum and specialist help will be drafted in in due course but it all takes time….so much time and it’s agony. My troubled mind just felt the need to put some feelers out. Inspiration and motivation can be found in the least likely of places at times !
spiritof76 said:
alscar said:
Firstly condolences for the loss of now both your Parents.
The RNRB allowance may be possible to still gain the benefit of or at least a proportion of relative to the amount of the house that has been left to you courtesy of the will ie if you have inherited 25% of the estate then that quantum might be claimable - I would be talking to a solicitor about this though.
HMRC do have some ability to negotiate on things like royalties in terms of how to assess and a solicitor should be aware of what conversations to have on the above.
On estates in excess of £2m if you do get the benefit of some of the RNRB though a taper affect then comes into play though.
If nothing allowable then on an estate of £2.10m less the combined £650k that is, the total IHT bill will be £580K.
As Executor you have to distribute the assets according to the will ( I am assuming you have the original copy of this ?)and this will takes precedent over any expression of wishes /explanations unsigned or otherwise.
You cannot rewrite the will in any way nor should you even try !
Interpretation of the unsigned expression of wishes is down to you as Executor but its the will that is the important document as knowing what your Father wanted to distribute.
Thanks for condolences and input. £580k yikes ! I can’t allow that to happen, my hopes of early retirement up in smoke. I’ve got to find a way to reinstate the 1m allowance as it seems like pure evil to deny us that over such a petty argument about being officially fostered or not…..my parents brought them up as their own, put them through school and got them into work etc. and now want to take care of them and me after death. They couldn’t be more ‘descendant’……one of them has my parents names tattooed up her arm FFS ! Sorry I do get rather wound up about this lolThe RNRB allowance may be possible to still gain the benefit of or at least a proportion of relative to the amount of the house that has been left to you courtesy of the will ie if you have inherited 25% of the estate then that quantum might be claimable - I would be talking to a solicitor about this though.
HMRC do have some ability to negotiate on things like royalties in terms of how to assess and a solicitor should be aware of what conversations to have on the above.
On estates in excess of £2m if you do get the benefit of some of the RNRB though a taper affect then comes into play though.
If nothing allowable then on an estate of £2.10m less the combined £650k that is, the total IHT bill will be £580K.
As Executor you have to distribute the assets according to the will ( I am assuming you have the original copy of this ?)and this will takes precedent over any expression of wishes /explanations unsigned or otherwise.
You cannot rewrite the will in any way nor should you even try !
Interpretation of the unsigned expression of wishes is down to you as Executor but its the will that is the important document as knowing what your Father wanted to distribute.
The rules are fairly clear though on the need to have direct family benefit form the potential additional allowance.
Was the split in your Dads will evenly done or are you the major /majority beneficiary ?
Just get the will rewritten via a variation. This should be relatively straightforward, provided all of the conditions are met (including agreement from all beneficiaries of the original will).
You still have time to do this, but the clock is ticking (it has to be done within two years of the death).
https://www.gov.uk/alter-a-will-after-a-death
Obviously, the revised will should specifically leave the main residence to you alone if you want to take advantage of the RNRB. As has been already mentioned, you won't get the full RNRB because the estate is valued at over £2M. The allowable RNRB will reduce by £1 for every £2 that the estate is over the £2M limit.
I'm not sure why you'd consider excluding the Romanians from the revised will? Doing so might hinder the variation process, plus it might cause other issues later on. To put it bluntly, I wouldn't replace one badly-written will with another badly-written will!
You still have time to do this, but the clock is ticking (it has to be done within two years of the death).
https://www.gov.uk/alter-a-will-after-a-death
Obviously, the revised will should specifically leave the main residence to you alone if you want to take advantage of the RNRB. As has been already mentioned, you won't get the full RNRB because the estate is valued at over £2M. The allowable RNRB will reduce by £1 for every £2 that the estate is over the £2M limit.
I'm not sure why you'd consider excluding the Romanians from the revised will? Doing so might hinder the variation process, plus it might cause other issues later on. To put it bluntly, I wouldn't replace one badly-written will with another badly-written will!
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