Anyone here with DIY experience of MLC pipe for plumbing?
Discussion
I'm planning on having most of my floors up at some point to fit underfloor insulation (suspended timber currently), and all the copper pipe is currently about 45 years old and lagged in horse hair/hessian.
We're in a bungalow so all the pipes are under the floors.
So it's definitely worth thinking about all the plumbing while I work around because it's going to be hidden away and even less accessible under foam insulation/foil tape etc.
I'm currently thinking MLC looks pretty swish.
Commercial users seem to use it a lot, and the European contintent seem to use it a lot, and it seems to be gaining traction in the UK residential space, so lots of fittings and parts available to hop onto/off resi type bits, combine with an existing system etc.
It looks like the biggest single cost is the press tool, but then once you've got that you can run to copper/chromed copper tails for rads, and link into copper elsewhere if needed (a press-fit and I assume non-service joint), and also has an increasingly wide range of bits to do the entire job from the stop tap.
They do rolls of it with insulation already fitted.
But I'm also reading a lot of MLC websites and their marketing materials. So is it really as good as it looks?
I've read quite a bit about plastic also, but I've seen a few connections under some kind of tension cause failures/leaks (an L bend off a rad tail in one case).
I quite like the idea that MLC is bendable but then retains it's shape, so you can form it easily, support it, but the joints are going to be under much less/no stress, than a rubber seal on plastic that might spend decades with a lateral loading on it.
I appreciate that plastic done well should be very reliable also, but the parts aren't as cheap as MLC (so it looks), and the need to support it more carefully due to it's springy nature, put me off a bit.
Finally. Is it really necessary to use electric presses?
Manual ones are much cheaper and I assume the tools are designed to stop at the right load (so if you get it closed, you got the right load into it)... is it a case of commercial users just want to be able to hold a device in a tight space and let the tool do the job hundreds or thousands of times a day, and are willing to pay for it.
Or is it a case that they're really hard to crimp/press manually and consistently full stop? Even if you're just working around steady away as a DIYer?
I think an electric press for about £1,000 along with all the other time/parts etc for MLC will be at cost parity with copper these days, but a whole load of time saved... so it's worthwhile. But then it kinda offsets a big part of the benefit of MLC when the presses are so expensive.
We're in a bungalow so all the pipes are under the floors.
So it's definitely worth thinking about all the plumbing while I work around because it's going to be hidden away and even less accessible under foam insulation/foil tape etc.
I'm currently thinking MLC looks pretty swish.
Commercial users seem to use it a lot, and the European contintent seem to use it a lot, and it seems to be gaining traction in the UK residential space, so lots of fittings and parts available to hop onto/off resi type bits, combine with an existing system etc.
It looks like the biggest single cost is the press tool, but then once you've got that you can run to copper/chromed copper tails for rads, and link into copper elsewhere if needed (a press-fit and I assume non-service joint), and also has an increasingly wide range of bits to do the entire job from the stop tap.
They do rolls of it with insulation already fitted.
But I'm also reading a lot of MLC websites and their marketing materials. So is it really as good as it looks?
I've read quite a bit about plastic also, but I've seen a few connections under some kind of tension cause failures/leaks (an L bend off a rad tail in one case).
I quite like the idea that MLC is bendable but then retains it's shape, so you can form it easily, support it, but the joints are going to be under much less/no stress, than a rubber seal on plastic that might spend decades with a lateral loading on it.
I appreciate that plastic done well should be very reliable also, but the parts aren't as cheap as MLC (so it looks), and the need to support it more carefully due to it's springy nature, put me off a bit.
Finally. Is it really necessary to use electric presses?
Manual ones are much cheaper and I assume the tools are designed to stop at the right load (so if you get it closed, you got the right load into it)... is it a case of commercial users just want to be able to hold a device in a tight space and let the tool do the job hundreds or thousands of times a day, and are willing to pay for it.
Or is it a case that they're really hard to crimp/press manually and consistently full stop? Even if you're just working around steady away as a DIYer?
I think an electric press for about £1,000 along with all the other time/parts etc for MLC will be at cost parity with copper these days, but a whole load of time saved... so it's worthwhile. But then it kinda offsets a big part of the benefit of MLC when the presses are so expensive.
I don't really know the practical difference between say GF Uponor MLC, and JG Speedfit Polybutylene barrier pipe, or the equivalent Polyethylene (PEX) given all three are plastic pipe in coil form. Obviously Uponor using crimp fittings, Speedfit is a push fit, and PEX is available in both.
Either way, like wiring, best practice is to keep the runs point-to-point to avoid joints in inaccessible spaces in the first place!
The press tool is a barrier to DIY, but if you are doing a whole house its fairly easy to buy a tool for a grand and then stick it on ebay or marketplace afterwards.
We went the other way, and had our house replumbed in copper 7 years ago, including using 10mm coated coil in-wall to each ground floor radiator dropped down from the first floor void, conventional 15 or 22mm elsewhere.
Either way, like wiring, best practice is to keep the runs point-to-point to avoid joints in inaccessible spaces in the first place!
The press tool is a barrier to DIY, but if you are doing a whole house its fairly easy to buy a tool for a grand and then stick it on ebay or marketplace afterwards.
We went the other way, and had our house replumbed in copper 7 years ago, including using 10mm coated coil in-wall to each ground floor radiator dropped down from the first floor void, conventional 15 or 22mm elsewhere.
I did part of my house using Emmeti stuff about 5 years ago.
I did all the hot & cold stuff & the upstairs rad runs then the heating engineer did all the underfloor heating.
It's pretty easy to use, a lot less hassle than using copper. Other than me missing one connection in the downstairs loo (it actually took a few weeks to leak despite only being pushed on!) I've not had any problems with it. Make sure you use plenty of clips to clip the pipe work to joists etc.
It's more expensive than traditional copper but so much less hassle & way more substantial feeling than push fit stuff.
I managed to pick up a mains press tool for about £300 off Ebay. It came with about 6 jaws that I didn't need so I sold those and used the money to buy the 2 sizes I did need.
Once I'd finished I sold the press tool on for what I paid for it!
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