Help an EV Virgin understand stuff like best chargers etc
Help an EV Virgin understand stuff like best chargers etc
Author
Discussion

Phooey

Original Poster:

13,244 posts

187 months

Saturday 30th August
quotequote all
I’m trying to decide if an EV is right for me or not but one of my main questions is what type of charger would be best for…

Renault 5 (but also want to future-proof for other EV’s).
Current supplier is Octopus but no smart meter.
Can I purchase the charger / installation through the business (VAT & LTD)?

I have many other questions like which way is best for the business to purchase it e.g PCP or business lease, BIK, etc so might start another thread..

Thanks

eta - am I right in thinking Octopus Intelligent Drive Pack gives unlimited charging for £30/mth? Sounds stupidly cheap! I think we would do 12k miles/yr in a Renault so sounds a no brainier… although sadly doesn’t work on a Renault frown



Edited by Phooey on Saturday 30th August 20:47

riskyj

493 posts

98 months

Saturday 30th August
quotequote all
If you buy a compatible charger such as a Zappi you can connect any car.

samoht

6,699 posts

164 months

Saturday 30th August
quotequote all
First, you'll need a smart meter installed to get any of the cheaper tariffs, so I'd suggest organising that.

Second, I'd recommend an Octopus-compatible charger - you can find some here https://octopus.energy/order/ev-charger/products/ although annoyingly there doesn't appear to be a complete list. This will let you take up any of the Octopus smart tariffs with any EV, including the R5.

Third, it'll be "stupidly cheap" to fuel on any off-peak deal.
Eg Standard Octopus Go gives 5 hours of off-peak at 8.5p/hr. 12,000 miles a year is 4,000 kWh (assuming 3 miles/kWh efficiency, which is probably a bit conservative). 4,000 kWh at 8.5p a unit is £340 a year, so slightly less than the 12 x £30 for the Drive Pack. Standard Octopus Go just needs a smart meter, not any particular charger.

Intelligent Octopus Go with a compatible charger knocks the price down to 7p/kWh, so £280/yr, and also gives you longer off-peak charging periods if needed.

You're looking at spending 20-25% of the money on electricity as you would on petrol or diesel, given an off peak tariff.


PS Renault and Polestar have their own systems which work with Octopus. These have their own separate list of compatible chargers (Andersen and Zaptec respectively) which talk to the carmakers' computers, which then talk to Octopus. I'm 99% sure that this is an additional pathway to using Octopus, and you can still connect directly by just using an Octopus-compatible charger - which seems simpler and more future-proof to me.


Phooey

Original Poster:

13,244 posts

187 months

Sunday 31st August
quotequote all
samoht said:
First, you'll need a smart meter installed to get any of the cheaper tariffs, so I'd suggest organising that.

Second, I'd recommend an Octopus-compatible charger - you can find some here https://octopus.energy/order/ev-charger/products/ although annoyingly there doesn't appear to be a complete list. This will let you take up any of the Octopus smart tariffs with any EV, including the R5.

Third, it'll be "stupidly cheap" to fuel on any off-peak deal.
Eg Standard Octopus Go gives 5 hours of off-peak at 8.5p/hr. 12,000 miles a year is 4,000 kWh (assuming 3 miles/kWh efficiency, which is probably a bit conservative). 4,000 kWh at 8.5p a unit is £340 a year, so slightly less than the 12 x £30 for the Drive Pack. Standard Octopus Go just needs a smart meter, not any particular charger.

Intelligent Octopus Go with a compatible charger knocks the price down to 7p/kWh, so £280/yr, and also gives you longer off-peak charging periods if needed.

You're looking at spending 20-25% of the money on electricity as you would on petrol or diesel, given an off peak tariff.


PS Renault and Polestar have their own systems which work with Octopus. These have their own separate list of compatible chargers (Andersen and Zaptec respectively) which talk to the carmakers' computers, which then talk to Octopus. I'm 99% sure that this is an additional pathway to using Octopus, and you can still connect directly by just using an Octopus-compatible charger - which seems simpler and more future-proof to me.
Thanks for detailed reply - I'll have to read it a few more times for it to sink in but it gives me something to go on smile

Out of interest would any of the chargers Octopus sell work on future EV's too or are they like phone cables where they only work with certain devices (cars) etc?

confused_buyer

6,885 posts

199 months

Sunday 31st August
quotequote all
12000 miles a year at 4m/kWh costs £17.50 per month on Intelligent Octopus Go so I don't think the "unlimited" tariff is the best one for you.

If you go for one of the intelligent chargers which works directly with Octopus (e.g. Ohme) there is no direct communication with the car so it will just charge whatever is plugged in and you can charge any and every car off it.

samoht

6,699 posts

164 months

Sunday 31st August
quotequote all
Phooey said:
Out of interest would any of the chargers Octopus sell work on future EV's too or are they like phone cables where they only work with certain devices (cars) etc?
Firstly, any charger will charge any EV, they all use the "Type 2" standard now. (apart from a few discontinued models like the Leaf which are CHAdeMO, but aren't relevant here)

The compatibility issue is only to do with getting cheap-rate electricity to charge.

In terms of rates, there are four possibilities:

1) Standard rate. This is the simplest option. You charge your EV whenever you like, and pay your standard rate, maybe 26p a unit (kWh). No special equipment needed, you can charge any EV using a three-pin charger or a hardwired home charger. Cost is about two-thirds the cost of running a petrol car.

2) Overnight off-peak. You pay a slightly higher electricity rate during the day, and get a very cheap rate for a period overnight. For Octopus this is 00:30-05:30. I'm on this (Octopus Go) and pay 29p/kWh during the day and 8.5p/kWh off-peak. You need a smart meter, and the ability to time your charging only during the off-peak hours. Again, any EV and any charger will be compatible. (Unless neither your car nor your charger support timed charging, which is AFAIK very unlikely). Cost is about 20% the cost of running a petrol car. Most companies offer a tariff like this, see https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/utilities/ev-ene... for more.

3) "Flexible" off-peak. You give the electricity company the flexibility to charge your EV whenever it's cheapest for them, in exchange they guarantee to have it charged to the level you request, for the departure time you specify. You need a smart meter and either a compatible car or a compatible home EV charger to let the electricity company control when your car charges. Only a few companies offer these, one being Octopus with Intelligent Octopus Go. This is 7p/kWh, and AFAIK no increase in peak rate. The off peak applies for six hours a night (23:30-05:30) plus whenever they charge your car outside these times.

4) Monthly subscription. You pay a fixed monthly price to cover charging. For Intelligent Octopus Drive Pack, this works the same as IOG above, in that you specify when you want the car charged by, and they control the actual timing of charging, hence the same requirements for a smart meter plus a compatible car or charger.

Broadly, (1) suits low mileage drivers as you need not pay for a charger install or a higher peak rate. (4) suits high mileage drivers who will use a lot of electricity. If you have 'average' charging needs, (3) is probably best if you have a compatible car or charger, (2) otherwise.


If you're buying a charger, I'd say get one which is supported by the Intelligent Octopus tariffs, then you should be set for the future with whatever EV you may subsequently get.

Phooey

Original Poster:

13,244 posts

187 months

Sunday 31st August
quotequote all
confused_buyer said:
12000 miles a year at 4m/kWh costs £17.50 per month on Intelligent Octopus Go so I don't think the "unlimited" tariff is the best one for you.

If you go for one of the intelligent chargers which works directly with Octopus (e.g. Ohme) there is no direct communication with the car so it will just charge whatever is plugged in and you can charge any and every car off it.
Ah ok thanks. I hadn't done the sums.. £30/mth just sounded stupidly cheap! £17.50 (or thereabouts) is crazy!

So basically - just buy an 'intelligent' charger and switch to Octopus Go and all should be good??

this is my username

350 posts

78 months

Sunday 31st August
quotequote all
I have an Ohme Home Pro charger which connects to Octopus Intelligent which I have been very happy with (both the charger and Octopus)!

As has been said elsewhere you will need a smart meter to take advantage of the low-cost EV tariffs.

You can control the car charging using the Ohme app - either by directly controlling the charger directly and adding a fixed amount of charge or by getting the charger to communicate with the car to get its battery charge % etc. - though I have heard that the integration with Renault is a bit flakey. I controlled the charging of my previous car (Jag iPace) by just setting a % charge to add to the battery using the Ohme app. Its replacement (VW id.3) talks to the charger so I can tell the charger to charge the car to whatever % I want.

If you are on Intelligent Octopus then all of your overnight electricity usage (23:30 to 05:30) is at the cheap rate - so if you run your dishwasher, washing machine, immersion heater etc on a timer you can take advantage of that. And if you go down the solar panel / battery route you can charge your home battery overnight on cheap rate too.

this is my username

350 posts

78 months

Sunday 31st August
quotequote all
Phooey said:
Ah ok thanks. I hadn't done the sums.. £30/mth just sounded stupidly cheap! £17.50 (or thereabouts) is crazy!

So basically - just buy an 'intelligent' charger and switch to Octopus Go and all should be good??
Yes, and yes!

TheRainMaker

7,262 posts

260 months

Sunday 31st August
quotequote all
Phooey said:
Out of interest would any of the chargers Octopus sell work on future EV's too or are they like phone cables where they only work with certain devices (cars) etc?
They would work with any car with a type 2 plug (nearly every EV),

Phooey

Original Poster:

13,244 posts

187 months

Sunday 31st August
quotequote all
samoht said:
Firstly, any charger will charge any EV, they all use the "Type 2" standard now. (apart from a few discontinued models like the Leaf which are CHAdeMO, but aren't relevant here)

The compatibility issue is only to do with getting cheap-rate electricity to charge.

In terms of rates, there are four possibilities:

1) Standard rate. This is the simplest option. You charge your EV whenever you like, and pay your standard rate, maybe 26p a unit (kWh). No special equipment needed, you can charge any EV using a three-pin charger or a hardwired home charger. Cost is about two-thirds the cost of running a petrol car.

2) Overnight off-peak. You pay a slightly higher electricity rate during the day, and get a very cheap rate for a period overnight. For Octopus this is 00:30-05:30. I'm on this (Octopus Go) and pay 29p/kWh during the day and 8.5p/kWh off-peak. You need a smart meter, and the ability to time your charging only during the off-peak hours. Again, any EV and any charger will be compatible. (Unless neither your car nor your charger support timed charging, which is AFAIK very unlikely). Cost is about 20% the cost of running a petrol car. Most companies offer a tariff like this, see https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/utilities/ev-ene... for more.

3) "Flexible" off-peak. You give the electricity company the flexibility to charge your EV whenever it's cheapest for them, in exchange they guarantee to have it charged to the level you request, for the departure time you specify. You need a smart meter and either a compatible car or a compatible home EV charger to let the electricity company control when your car charges. Only a few companies offer these, one being Octopus with Intelligent Octopus Go. This is 7p/kWh, and AFAIK no increase in peak rate. The off peak applies for six hours a night (23:30-05:30) plus whenever they charge your car outside these times.

4) Monthly subscription. You pay a fixed monthly price to cover charging. For Intelligent Octopus Drive Pack, this works the same as IOG above, in that you specify when you want the car charged by, and they control the actual timing of charging, hence the same requirements for a smart meter plus a compatible car or charger.

Broadly, (1) suits low mileage drivers as you need not pay for a charger install or a higher peak rate. (4) suits high mileage drivers who will use a lot of electricity. If you have 'average' charging needs, (3) is probably best if you have a compatible car or charger, (2) otherwise.


If you're buying a charger, I'd say get one which is supported by the Intelligent Octopus tariffs, then you should be set for the future with whatever EV you may subsequently get.
Brilliant reply - thank you so much for taking the time, samoht.

It sounds like option 2 might be best/easiest for me, but as you say - probably worth buying an intelligent charger to allow for option 3.

Which charger would you buy out of interest if starting from scratch today? Again thanks for the replies guys.

Phooey

Original Poster:

13,244 posts

187 months

Sunday 31st August
quotequote all
this is my username said:
I have an Ohme Home Pro charger which connects to Octopus Intelligent which I have been very happy with (both the charger and Octopus)!

As has been said elsewhere you will need a smart meter to take advantage of the low-cost EV tariffs.

You can control the car charging using the Ohme app - either by directly controlling the charger directly and adding a fixed amount of charge or by getting the charger to communicate with the car to get its battery charge % etc. - though I have heard that the integration with Renault is a bit flakey. I controlled the charging of my previous car (Jag iPace) by just setting a % charge to add to the battery using the Ohme app. Its replacement (VW id.3) talks to the charger so I can tell the charger to charge the car to whatever % I want.

If you are on Intelligent Octopus then all of your overnight electricity usage (23:30 to 05:30) is at the cheap rate - so if you run your dishwasher, washing machine, immersion heater etc on a timer you can take advantage of that. And if you go down the solar panel / battery route you can charge your home battery overnight on cheap rate too.
Thanks for reply. Yes, I think the issue is with Renault (according to forums)

this is my username said:
Yes, and yes!
Perfect - thanks!

TheRainMaker said:
They would work with any car with a type 2 plug (nearly every EV),
Thank you smile

DSLiverpool

15,740 posts

220 months

Sunday 31st August
quotequote all
Business PCP On my Merc, full tax relief plus it pushed me into a loss and I got a tax rebate. Win win.

We run a Chinese and the Merc, had 2 evs for 10 years, it’s just something you get used to.

timberman

1,372 posts

233 months

Sunday 31st August
quotequote all
Phooey said:
samoht said:
Firstly, any charger will charge any EV, they all use the "Type 2" standard now. (apart from a few discontinued models like the Leaf which are CHAdeMO, but aren't relevant here)

The compatibility issue is only to do with getting cheap-rate electricity to charge.

In terms of rates, there are four possibilities:

1) Standard rate. This is the simplest option. You charge your EV whenever you like, and pay your standard rate, maybe 26p a unit (kWh). No special equipment needed, you can charge any EV using a three-pin charger or a hardwired home charger. Cost is about two-thirds the cost of running a petrol car.

2) Overnight off-peak. You pay a slightly higher electricity rate during the day, and get a very cheap rate for a period overnight. For Octopus this is 00:30-05:30. I'm on this (Octopus Go) and pay 29p/kWh during the day and 8.5p/kWh off-peak. You need a smart meter, and the ability to time your charging only during the off-peak hours. Again, any EV and any charger will be compatible. (Unless neither your car nor your charger support timed charging, which is AFAIK very unlikely). Cost is about 20% the cost of running a petrol car. Most companies offer a tariff like this, see https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/utilities/ev-ene... for more.

3) "Flexible" off-peak. You give the electricity company the flexibility to charge your EV whenever it's cheapest for them, in exchange they guarantee to have it charged to the level you request, for the departure time you specify. You need a smart meter and either a compatible car or a compatible home EV charger to let the electricity company control when your car charges. Only a few companies offer these, one being Octopus with Intelligent Octopus Go. This is 7p/kWh, and AFAIK no increase in peak rate. The off peak applies for six hours a night (23:30-05:30) plus whenever they charge your car outside these times.

4) Monthly subscription. You pay a fixed monthly price to cover charging. For Intelligent Octopus Drive Pack, this works the same as IOG above, in that you specify when you want the car charged by, and they control the actual timing of charging, hence the same requirements for a smart meter plus a compatible car or charger.

Broadly, (1) suits low mileage drivers as you need not pay for a charger install or a higher peak rate. (4) suits high mileage drivers who will use a lot of electricity. If you have 'average' charging needs, (3) is probably best if you have a compatible car or charger, (2) otherwise.


If you're buying a charger, I'd say get one which is supported by the Intelligent Octopus tariffs, then you should be set for the future with whatever EV you may subsequently get.
Brilliant reply - thank you so much for taking the time, samoht.

It sounds like option 2 might be best/easiest for me, but as you say - probably worth buying an intelligent charger to allow for option 3.

Which charger would you buy out of interest if starting from scratch today? Again thanks for the replies guys.
We've got 2 chargers, both fitted by Octopus and both are running on their overnight cheap rate tariffs ,

Ohme home pro at one house and MyEnrgi Zappi at the other,

they both work well and connect with the car okay (BMW i4 M50),

I'd say the one I would recommend and the one I would get if I needed another would be the Zappi

ben5575

7,073 posts

239 months

Sunday 31st August
quotequote all
Just to expand a little on the excellent answers above.

The charging of the car can be controlled by either the car itself or the charger.

If you have a regular charger fitted and you run a regular tariff, you tell your car (via dashboard or phone app) when you want it to charge (as in right now or some other time) and how much you want to 'fill it up' (80% or whatever). You plug your car in and the car tells the charger when it wants power and how much.

If you have a Octopus compatible charger, then you tell your charger (not your car) that you want your car fully charged by say 7am in the morning and leave your car plugged in. Octopus will then talk to your charger and usually start charging in your off peak. Sometimes it'll charge at other times (if you're on the Intelligent tariff) if there happens to be cheap electricity through the day. You also have the option to Max Charge which over rides any tariffs and just charges your car straight away.

When people talk about integration issues between certain cars and chargers, this tends to be about whether the charger can integrate with the car's software.

So for example, in my ID Buzz and Ohme charger, I go into my Ohme app on my phone, the charger talks to car, the Ohme app realises that my car has 27% charge already and then makes a plan to charge to 80% (whatever I choose) based on the cars current state of charge.

My wife's I3 is not compatible, so when I plug in the Ohme charger, the charger/app doesn't know that the car already has 27% charge, it simply assumes it's 0% and makes a plan accordingly. It's a minor thing - I can still go into my BMW app and see that the car is charging and the level of charge.

ETA the word 'charger' is also a misnomer. The wall charger isn't actually a charger at all, it's just a clever power cable. All actual chargers are in the cars themselves. Not sure of that helps or hinders!

Edited by ben5575 on Sunday 31st August 10:23

ChocolateFrog

32,798 posts

191 months

Sunday 31st August
quotequote all
Getting a charger that's compatible with your electricity suppliers smart tariff is important IMO.

You don't want to come out in the morning to find it didn't charge for whatever reason.

Octopus and Ohme has been plug and play for me. It hasn't charged properly twice in nearly 5 years but I think that was probably my fault.

Phooey

Original Poster:

13,244 posts

187 months

Sunday 31st August
quotequote all
Excellent - thanks again for all the replies. One issue I have at our house is WiFi - it is rubbish so the charger would need to be a 4g one, I think.


this is my username

350 posts

78 months

Sunday 31st August
quotequote all
Phooey said:
Excellent - thanks again for all the replies. One issue I have at our house is WiFi - it is rubbish so the charger would need to be a 4g one, I think.
Ohme Home Pro is 4g, doesn't need a wireless connection.

Phooey

Original Poster:

13,244 posts

187 months

Sunday 31st August
quotequote all
this is my username said:
Ohme Home Pro is 4g, doesn't need a wireless connection.
Was just looking at that - thanks! (although I wouldn't quite call our 4g signal "strong" (on ee anyway))



occasionalranter

143 posts

64 months

Sunday 31st August
quotequote all
If you own a profitable company you can put the car through, then it gets even better. Quite apart from the VAT and BIK advantages on the purchase/lease costs, and maybe less well known, is that:
- the full cost of installation of a charger at home and
- the full cost of ALL electricity used to charge the car, regardless of whether for private or business use
can be met by the company and set against corporation tax, with no NI and no income tax liability on the employee.

Even some accountants get the latter bit wrong. Here's the HMRC guidance:

https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/employmen...

See stage 2 in the section "Employee charges car at home or at a public charging point: their employer reimburses the electricity costs"

Anyway, point is: once you're paying <>8p/kwh, and once the company tax treatment of that makes it feel like only 4 to 5p/kwh out of your pocket, then worrying about getting exactly the right deal is hardly worth it. Let's say you are a higher rate taxpayer for salary or dividends and home charge at the cheap rate for 10k out of your 12k miles a year, and an efficient car like the Renault 5 gives you 4 miles/kwh. The "hit to your pocket" of all that is

10000 miles / 4mi/kwh x 5p = £125. For the whole year.