Simple amp and speaker install.....advice appreciated
Discussion
I've got a mk1 Renault Twingo which I'm looking to upgrade the audio in, but really not sure what to order. It's only a tiny car.
Currently it has 100mm speakers on the dashboard, and 130mm speakers in the door panels. You can get 165mm speakers in the doors, which is what i'd like to do.
I'm going to leave the original headunit in place, but not use it. Source will be my phone, linked to a JL Audio MBT RX V2 bluetooth receiver. This has lineouts which will go to an amplifier.
What I need help with is speccing the amp and speakers.
Would I be ok with pairs of coaxial 10cm and 16.5cm speakers fed by a 4 channel amp? Or would that be a bit light?
Would I better with a small subwoofer too, and if so, would that need a separate mono amp, or do I just run all 4 front speakers together from 2 channels and bridge the others for the sub?
Any advice would be really appreciated.
Currently it has 100mm speakers on the dashboard, and 130mm speakers in the door panels. You can get 165mm speakers in the doors, which is what i'd like to do.
I'm going to leave the original headunit in place, but not use it. Source will be my phone, linked to a JL Audio MBT RX V2 bluetooth receiver. This has lineouts which will go to an amplifier.
What I need help with is speccing the amp and speakers.
Would I be ok with pairs of coaxial 10cm and 16.5cm speakers fed by a 4 channel amp? Or would that be a bit light?
Would I better with a small subwoofer too, and if so, would that need a separate mono amp, or do I just run all 4 front speakers together from 2 channels and bridge the others for the sub?
Any advice would be really appreciated.
It's unlikely from similar set-ups I've seen that you'll be able to decently seal the dash speaker locations, so I'd forget about them - although you could consider mounting the tweeters there if you get a set of component fronts.
Loads of deadening inside the door - on the back of the outside body panel, try and seal any/all gaps behind the door cards. Mounting the speakers well is a big chunk of the battle for good sound. Anything you can hear outside the car is wasted energy.
Then I'd go for a small sub if there's room.
A 4 channel amp is the simplest solution if you can find one that matches your speakers (I think I'd start by identifying the sub/box I was going to use, that'll give you the RMS bridged wattage you're looking for from your amp, then you can choose front speakers to suit the power provided by the amp's single channels as there's loads of choice there)
What you buy then depends on your budget.
Watch out, the shopping list can get expensive if it's your first install and you need to buy wire (chunky battery/earth supplies), fuses etc as well to get it all installed. Getting speaker wires into the doors is a PITA and I've never worried about just cutting into and using the OE stuff, but others will disagree (I'm not pushing massive wattages)
Massive power is not required if you choose carefully - My car currently has one approx 70w/channel amp feeding the fronts, and a 200w sub. It's nicely balanced and you can't hear yourself talking/singing if you turn it up
Post your amp/sub/speaker ideas on here and I'm sure we'll be constructive
Loads of deadening inside the door - on the back of the outside body panel, try and seal any/all gaps behind the door cards. Mounting the speakers well is a big chunk of the battle for good sound. Anything you can hear outside the car is wasted energy.
Then I'd go for a small sub if there's room.
A 4 channel amp is the simplest solution if you can find one that matches your speakers (I think I'd start by identifying the sub/box I was going to use, that'll give you the RMS bridged wattage you're looking for from your amp, then you can choose front speakers to suit the power provided by the amp's single channels as there's loads of choice there)
What you buy then depends on your budget.
Watch out, the shopping list can get expensive if it's your first install and you need to buy wire (chunky battery/earth supplies), fuses etc as well to get it all installed. Getting speaker wires into the doors is a PITA and I've never worried about just cutting into and using the OE stuff, but others will disagree (I'm not pushing massive wattages)
Massive power is not required if you choose carefully - My car currently has one approx 70w/channel amp feeding the fronts, and a 200w sub. It's nicely balanced and you can't hear yourself talking/singing if you turn it up
Post your amp/sub/speaker ideas on here and I'm sure we'll be constructive
Consider an underseat sub if it will fit. Your twingo's boot is probably small enough without a sub enclosure in there!
https://caraudiocentre.co.uk/products/in-phase-usw...
https://caraudiocentre.co.uk/products/in-phase-usw...
You need 165mm components. Don't bother with the 10cm dash speakers. You might be able to mount the tweeters there but they usually work best on the dash or on the A-pillars. Amp choice will depend upon the subwoofer - which will depend upon how much boot space you want to lose. You might want to consider a bass-tube or similar if you think that you will need to remove it frequently. It's critical that the amp has high & low pass filters for all channels, as you have no way of controlling the signal via your phone.
Installation is everything, as has already been stated. Budget at least £100 just for install parts. If you need speakers rings (mostly likely) get them in HDPE, not MDF.
Installation is everything, as has already been stated. Budget at least £100 just for install parts. If you need speakers rings (mostly likely) get them in HDPE, not MDF.
campionissimo said:
I'd discounted the idea of components because I really want to avoid having anything non factory looking, like tweeters on the a pillar. Hence the coaxials.
Mount the tweeters in the dash in place of the 10cms. Will be better than having the tweeters down by your legs.gmaz said:
Consider an underseat sub if it will fit. Your twingo's boot is probably small enough without a sub enclosure in there!
https://caraudiocentre.co.uk/products/in-phase-usw...
You're right, boot is pretty tiny, under the seat would be ideal as I very rarely carry passengers in the back. https://caraudiocentre.co.uk/products/in-phase-usw...
If you're going underseat... passive subs are quite expensive! Even my little 10" RF shallow sub is over £200 these days!
Taking a rough stab at your budget from the examples you posted, I'd probably go for an active underseat like https://caraudiodirect.co.uk/products/pioneer-ts-w...
Then you can have a 2-channel in the back with matched comps up front, such as
https://caraudiodirect.co.uk/products/hertz-dieci-...
playing on
https://caraudiodirect.co.uk/products/hertz-dieci-...
This gives a nice balanced 80w per channel, and the speakers have pretty good sensitivity - 93dB - which is effectively a measure of how loud they will sound to your ear at a given power. (dB is a logarithmic scale; an increase of 3dB is twice the power, but IIRC, you need approx 4 times the power before you perceive that the volume sounds twice as loud. Anyhow, going from 90-91dB speakers to 93dB ones will make a significant improvement in how loud it sounds).
There is a small chance that, depending what you're looking for from the whole thing, just a set of decent 16.5cm speakers with good sensitivity (ditch the little dash ones) well mounted could give you what you are looking for from the factory HU, without the bother of the rest.
A set of https://caraudiodirect.co.uk/products/focal-access... made big improvements to my factory HU as I installed them a few weeks before I got on with the rest of my latest install.
(Then a set of https://caraudiodirect.co.uk/products/audison-apk1... with 93.5dB made even more a year or two later... and now I've still got my eyes out for a new (to me) Genesis amp with 100w plus per channel to power them properly!)
This is where I go into my usual chat about clipping, which kills nice speakers very quickly. If you raise the volume of most HUs (and the gain on amps) too far, the nice sound wave form gets clipped at either end and becomes flat at the limit of the amp's (Hu internal, or external) power. Run a 1kHz test tone through your system (possibly wearing ear defenders - it's piercing) and you'll hear it take on a metallic buzz/edge as you hit the point the amp starts to clip - don't turn it up past there if you're running from the HU; you'll need to tweak each stage (HU pre-out and amp gains) if you're using an external amp. This is a quick and dirty method, but it requires no special kit and works well enough.
Taking a rough stab at your budget from the examples you posted, I'd probably go for an active underseat like https://caraudiodirect.co.uk/products/pioneer-ts-w...
Then you can have a 2-channel in the back with matched comps up front, such as
https://caraudiodirect.co.uk/products/hertz-dieci-...
playing on
https://caraudiodirect.co.uk/products/hertz-dieci-...
This gives a nice balanced 80w per channel, and the speakers have pretty good sensitivity - 93dB - which is effectively a measure of how loud they will sound to your ear at a given power. (dB is a logarithmic scale; an increase of 3dB is twice the power, but IIRC, you need approx 4 times the power before you perceive that the volume sounds twice as loud. Anyhow, going from 90-91dB speakers to 93dB ones will make a significant improvement in how loud it sounds).
There is a small chance that, depending what you're looking for from the whole thing, just a set of decent 16.5cm speakers with good sensitivity (ditch the little dash ones) well mounted could give you what you are looking for from the factory HU, without the bother of the rest.
A set of https://caraudiodirect.co.uk/products/focal-access... made big improvements to my factory HU as I installed them a few weeks before I got on with the rest of my latest install.
(Then a set of https://caraudiodirect.co.uk/products/audison-apk1... with 93.5dB made even more a year or two later... and now I've still got my eyes out for a new (to me) Genesis amp with 100w plus per channel to power them properly!)
This is where I go into my usual chat about clipping, which kills nice speakers very quickly. If you raise the volume of most HUs (and the gain on amps) too far, the nice sound wave form gets clipped at either end and becomes flat at the limit of the amp's (Hu internal, or external) power. Run a 1kHz test tone through your system (possibly wearing ear defenders - it's piercing) and you'll hear it take on a metallic buzz/edge as you hit the point the amp starts to clip - don't turn it up past there if you're running from the HU; you'll need to tweak each stage (HU pre-out and amp gains) if you're using an external amp. This is a quick and dirty method, but it requires no special kit and works well enough.
Edited by defblade on Thursday 18th September 22:06
Just wanted to complete the thread, finally got round to fitting it all.
Used a JL Audio MBT-RXv2 Bluetooth Receiver mounted under the dash, then split the RCA's from it so I had two feeds into two LC1 knobs, one to control front speaker volume, and one to control subwoofer volume. Mounted the LC1's in a single din storage bin in place of the original head unit. Fed the RCA's and speaker cables down one side, the power and rem down the other.
The front speakers are Hertz Dieci DSK130 components. I had wanted to use165mm speakers, but that would have involved altering the door cards which I didn't want to do. I made mdf rings to bring the speakers forward 6mm so they cleared the door card and window glass at the rear, but also fitted under the original grilles. I also made custom brackets to mount the Hertz tweeters in the dash locations. Took the opportunity to replace any broken door card clips and the butyl rubber strips that go between door and door card.
I Installed a Hertz DP4.300 4 channel amplifier on a homemade panel in the boot, channels 1 and 2 powering the front speakers, with channels 3 and 4 bridged to power the JBL Stage 82 8" subwoofer in a homemade 11 litre sealed box. Just a little bit of cable tidying to do around the amp.
Really pleased with the outcome. Sound quality is superb, the balance between the fronts and the sub is so easy to control.
Used a JL Audio MBT-RXv2 Bluetooth Receiver mounted under the dash, then split the RCA's from it so I had two feeds into two LC1 knobs, one to control front speaker volume, and one to control subwoofer volume. Mounted the LC1's in a single din storage bin in place of the original head unit. Fed the RCA's and speaker cables down one side, the power and rem down the other.
The front speakers are Hertz Dieci DSK130 components. I had wanted to use165mm speakers, but that would have involved altering the door cards which I didn't want to do. I made mdf rings to bring the speakers forward 6mm so they cleared the door card and window glass at the rear, but also fitted under the original grilles. I also made custom brackets to mount the Hertz tweeters in the dash locations. Took the opportunity to replace any broken door card clips and the butyl rubber strips that go between door and door card.
I Installed a Hertz DP4.300 4 channel amplifier on a homemade panel in the boot, channels 1 and 2 powering the front speakers, with channels 3 and 4 bridged to power the JBL Stage 82 8" subwoofer in a homemade 11 litre sealed box. Just a little bit of cable tidying to do around the amp.
Really pleased with the outcome. Sound quality is superb, the balance between the fronts and the sub is so easy to control.
Edited by campionissimo on Wednesday 10th June 10:14
In all of my many audio installs over the years I have never run rear speakers (other than a sub) back in the day the reasoning was that you didn't sit with your back to the band when you were listening to them, there were counter arguments about in fill and sound stage reflections etc but I was never unhappy about not having them.
Lovely - I do love an old-school ICE install! Nice job OP!
I know that modern cars have much better HiFi than older ones, but I always considered a better head unit and an amplifier to be essential in any car in years gone by, simply because the standard fit stuff was so utterly and totally woeful.
I know that modern cars have much better HiFi than older ones, but I always considered a better head unit and an amplifier to be essential in any car in years gone by, simply because the standard fit stuff was so utterly and totally woeful.
That's right, no rear speakers. And you really can't tell. I'm running the sub reversed polarity, which has the effect of bringing the bass forwards.
There's only one place to put rear speakers (apart from a custom parcel shelf and I wanted this as close to invisble) and that's in mounts on top of the rear shocks. But those mounts are incredibly rare and only take a 10cm speaker anyway.
There's only one place to put rear speakers (apart from a custom parcel shelf and I wanted this as close to invisble) and that's in mounts on top of the rear shocks. But those mounts are incredibly rare and only take a 10cm speaker anyway.
2Btoo said:
Lovely - I do love an old-school ICE install! Nice job OP!
I know that modern cars have much better HiFi than older ones, but I always considered a better head unit and an amplifier to be essential in any car in years gone by, simply because the standard fit stuff was so utterly and totally woeful.
Agreed, this still had the 24 year old radio cd (4x15w) and paper cone door speakers. Woeful is a fair description. I know that modern cars have much better HiFi than older ones, but I always considered a better head unit and an amplifier to be essential in any car in years gone by, simply because the standard fit stuff was so utterly and totally woeful.
It's amazing how much better it is now.
If doing the job again...
https://scrdistribution.co.uk/product/feelart-dsp4...
Would save you having to buy the JL Bluetooth receiver, all sorts of knobs etc and then give you full DSP control, time alignment etc.
It would also allow you to run a fully active front end by using the internal power amplifier to power the tweeters, leaving the Hertz amplifier to power the mids and subwoofer.
Looks a really nice little setup though. Less is very much more in car audio.
https://scrdistribution.co.uk/product/feelart-dsp4...
Would save you having to buy the JL Bluetooth receiver, all sorts of knobs etc and then give you full DSP control, time alignment etc.
It would also allow you to run a fully active front end by using the internal power amplifier to power the tweeters, leaving the Hertz amplifier to power the mids and subwoofer.
Looks a really nice little setup though. Less is very much more in car audio.
Edited by MattsCar on Thursday 11th June 09:46
TEKNOPUG said:
If you need speakers rings (mostly likely) get them in HDPE, not MDF.
MDF absorbs water (even if you paint them) so they'll fall apart over time when placed inside doors. HDPE is plastic (High-Density Polyethylene) - the same stuff that chopping boards are made from. Cut's just like MDF but fully waterproof.
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