Hybrid long term impact on an ICE engine?
Discussion
I am looking for thoughts on hybrid technology and it’s effect on a connected ICE engine.
For some time now I’ve been looking to change my BMW 530d Touring for an X5.
I really like the 3 litre diesel but I know they are going out of favour, so I wonder if the hybrid 3 litre petrol might be a better long term bet.
However, I do wonder what the long term effect is on an ICE engine after repeated cold starts whilst on the move.
My mechanical sympathy has always meant that I never use full power (or anything near it) until an ICE engine has reached operating temperature.
This would not be possible if, say you ran out of battery on a motorway and immediately switched to petrol at 70mph.
I’m looking for any thoughts and/or guidance on this subject.
Thanks in advance.
G
For some time now I’ve been looking to change my BMW 530d Touring for an X5.
I really like the 3 litre diesel but I know they are going out of favour, so I wonder if the hybrid 3 litre petrol might be a better long term bet.
However, I do wonder what the long term effect is on an ICE engine after repeated cold starts whilst on the move.
My mechanical sympathy has always meant that I never use full power (or anything near it) until an ICE engine has reached operating temperature.
This would not be possible if, say you ran out of battery on a motorway and immediately switched to petrol at 70mph.
I’m looking for any thoughts and/or guidance on this subject.
Thanks in advance.
G
Gazza450 said:
I am looking for thoughts on hybrid technology and it s effect on a connected ICE engine.
For some time now I ve been looking to change my BMW 530d Touring for an X5.
I really like the 3 litre diesel but I know they are going out of favour, so I wonder if the hybrid 3 litre petrol might be a better long term bet.
However, I do wonder what the long term effect is on an ICE engine after repeated cold starts whilst on the move.
My mechanical sympathy has always meant that I never use full power (or anything near it) until an ICE engine has reached operating temperature.
This would not be possible if, say you ran out of battery on a motorway and immediately switched to petrol at 70mph.
I m looking for any thoughts and/or guidance on this subject.
Thanks in advance.
G
It depends really. I always force ICE on if I know im going to do a motorway run, battery depletes quickly at 70mph so a minute or two before I reach the motorway I switch the ICE on to give it a moment to warm up and still take it easy merging etc until the engine is warm. I cant imagine most people have this much sympathy however and the ICE is engaged when theyre going for a hard overtake or merging so the engine goes from stone cold to maximum duty within a second or so lol For some time now I ve been looking to change my BMW 530d Touring for an X5.
I really like the 3 litre diesel but I know they are going out of favour, so I wonder if the hybrid 3 litre petrol might be a better long term bet.
However, I do wonder what the long term effect is on an ICE engine after repeated cold starts whilst on the move.
My mechanical sympathy has always meant that I never use full power (or anything near it) until an ICE engine has reached operating temperature.
This would not be possible if, say you ran out of battery on a motorway and immediately switched to petrol at 70mph.
I m looking for any thoughts and/or guidance on this subject.
Thanks in advance.
G
The only saving grace is the engines are designed with this in mind and are using thinner oil etc to compensate and our PHEV depsite having covered 20k miles has only done about half that on ICE power with at least 10k miles being pure EV, the remaining 10k miles were likely assisted by EV power too so the engine has had quite an easy life.
I’ve just got a 3 year old X5 45e plug in hybrid. There’s no coolant gauge but there is a blue ‘cold engine’ light that goes out after literally a minute. Not enough to protect the engine imho but it is what it is - you’d hope as the B58 has been de tuned it’d stand up to a little abuse. I’ll certainly be doing the oil more often than BMWs recommendation.
On the flip side the engine won’t have been used anywhere near as much as an ICE only setup - depending on use it could actually have had LESS cold starts than a pure petrol version used in stop start traffic.
On the flip side the engine won’t have been used anywhere near as much as an ICE only setup - depending on use it could actually have had LESS cold starts than a pure petrol version used in stop start traffic.
Crudeoink said:
I always force ICE on if I know im going to do a motorway run, battery depletes quickly at 70mph so a minute or two before I reach the motorway I switch the ICE on to give it a moment to warm up and still take it easy merging etc until the engine is warm. I cant imagine most people have this much sympathy however and the ICE is engaged when theyre going for a hard overtake or merging so the engine goes from stone cold to maximum duty within a second or so lol
I do the same, trying to run it under light load before a motorway. Think we might be in the minority though!Other than in a really underpowered car, an engine really isn't under that much load when cruising at 70mph on the motorway. Worst case would be if the engine fires up just as you're going onto an uphill sliproad. Even then there are only a fairly limited number of short slip roads, in the UK, where you genuinely need to go flat out in a modern car to merge safely.
These vehicles will have been subject to all sorts of abuse well beyond what a half decent driver would do during development testing, and probably at lower temperatures than we ever see here.
You can also take comfort that the minicab of choice at the moment is a hybrid Corolla, partly down to just how long the engines last. I've been in one which had done over 400000 miles and it still seemed fine!! The engines in those things turn on and off all the time, and are fairly underpowered so get revved quite hard when cold.
These vehicles will have been subject to all sorts of abuse well beyond what a half decent driver would do during development testing, and probably at lower temperatures than we ever see here.
You can also take comfort that the minicab of choice at the moment is a hybrid Corolla, partly down to just how long the engines last. I've been in one which had done over 400000 miles and it still seemed fine!! The engines in those things turn on and off all the time, and are fairly underpowered so get revved quite hard when cold.
I don't think this is an issue. Toyota hybrids have mega mileages by Uber drivers who are often doing lots of short journeys and cold starts.
I had a MB petrol plug in hybrid for a number of years. Lots of cold starts and short journeys because I live in a city. Just drove it like a normal car.
Oh, the battery doesn't go "flat" on a hybrid. They are designed to offer some minimum level of electrical assistance, should you floor it.
Regarding switching to a BMW hybrid, just go in with your eyes open, when it comes to the factory warranty on the battery. I think it is either 6 or 8 years, depending upon the model.
I had a MB petrol plug in hybrid for a number of years. Lots of cold starts and short journeys because I live in a city. Just drove it like a normal car.
Oh, the battery doesn't go "flat" on a hybrid. They are designed to offer some minimum level of electrical assistance, should you floor it.
Regarding switching to a BMW hybrid, just go in with your eyes open, when it comes to the factory warranty on the battery. I think it is either 6 or 8 years, depending upon the model.
Edited by raspy on Wednesday 17th September 10:06
raspy said:
I don't think this is an issue. Toyota hybrids have mega mileages by Uber drivers who are often doing lots of short journeys and cold starts.
I had a MB petrol plug in hybrid for a number of years. Lots of cold starts and short journeys because I live in a city. Just drove it like a normal car.
Oh, the battery doesn't go "flat" on a hybrid. They are designed to offer some minimum level of electrical assistance, should you floor it.
Regarding switching to a BMW hybrid, just go in with your eyes open, when it comes to the factory warranty on the battery. I think it is either 6 or 8 years, depending upon the model.
Pretty much a non-issue as you say. Toyota have been at this since the 90s. Their hybrid systems are generally bomb proof. The only thing you'd want to consider is running a thicker oil as the engine ages. I had a MB petrol plug in hybrid for a number of years. Lots of cold starts and short journeys because I live in a city. Just drove it like a normal car.
Oh, the battery doesn't go "flat" on a hybrid. They are designed to offer some minimum level of electrical assistance, should you floor it.
Regarding switching to a BMW hybrid, just go in with your eyes open, when it comes to the factory warranty on the battery. I think it is either 6 or 8 years, depending upon the model.
Edited by raspy on Wednesday 17th September 10:06
The Toyota hybrid system works to keep the battery between 40-60% at all times. You'll notice when you have managed to regen it up past 80% that the car feels more peppy! This is the key to the longevity, keeping it cycling around that mid-point of SOC. On the plug-in with larger batteries they don't do this obviously but it will deplete down to a state where the operation will become more like a normal hybrid; you'll still get electric assistance, moving off on motor, sailing etc but you just won't have extended duration on electric running until you charge up.
BMW have had "e" versions of their cars for quite some time. I haven't heard of anything particularly bad happening. They're probably not as reliable as a Toyota/Lexus, but then again most others aren't either.
I had a Mercedes petrol PHEV. What I couldn't understand was why the separate cooling system for the battery didn't run through the engine somehow to at least make an effort to warm it up. I had a head gasket go on mine. MB were very keen to pretend it wasn't a head gasket failure even though they repaired it under warranty!
I wouldn't want to own a used example without a manufacturer backed warranty thats for sure.
I have a PHEV through work and it just gets driven. It's not our car, not our worry and If I had the choice, wasn't whipped by BIK and availability on the car list I would have chosen something with pure ICE instead.
Despite being in EV mode it will quite often start the engine up when the load required or other conditions dictate.
It has, several times, fired up a stone cold engine straight up to 5-6k revs when joining an A road or motorway slip road. That combined with sporadic manufacturer service intervals, bargain basement servicing by the lease company and 0w-20 oils means I wouldn't touch it or another used PHEV with a barge pole.
It's on 24k miles right now and as well as the usual VAG interior deterioration starting to take effect, the engine feels a bit rough compared to when it was new. I can't imagine it's going to be doing that well at 48k or 72k miles. Hard to believe it had a list price approaching £45k when new.
I have a PHEV through work and it just gets driven. It's not our car, not our worry and If I had the choice, wasn't whipped by BIK and availability on the car list I would have chosen something with pure ICE instead.
Despite being in EV mode it will quite often start the engine up when the load required or other conditions dictate.
It has, several times, fired up a stone cold engine straight up to 5-6k revs when joining an A road or motorway slip road. That combined with sporadic manufacturer service intervals, bargain basement servicing by the lease company and 0w-20 oils means I wouldn't touch it or another used PHEV with a barge pole.
It's on 24k miles right now and as well as the usual VAG interior deterioration starting to take effect, the engine feels a bit rough compared to when it was new. I can't imagine it's going to be doing that well at 48k or 72k miles. Hard to believe it had a list price approaching £45k when new.
dci said:
I wouldn't want to own a used example without a manufacturer backed warranty thats for sure.
I have a PHEV through work and it just gets driven. It's not our car, not our worry and If I had the choice, wasn't whipped by BIK and availability on the car list I would have chosen something with pure ICE instead.
Despite being in EV mode it will quite often start the engine up when the load required or other conditions dictate.
It has, several times, fired up a stone cold engine straight up to 5-6k revs when joining an A road or motorway slip road. That combined with sporadic manufacturer service intervals, bargain basement servicing by the lease company and 0w-20 oils means I wouldn't touch it or another used PHEV with a barge pole.
It's on 24k miles right now and as well as the usual VAG interior deterioration starting to take effect, the engine feels a bit rough compared to when it was new. I can't imagine it's going to be doing that well at 48k or 72k miles. Hard to believe it had a list price approaching £45k when new.
BIK is the only reason I’m here, driving a 2.5 tonne hybrid 4x4 with a Nissan Leaf battery underneath. I have a PHEV through work and it just gets driven. It's not our car, not our worry and If I had the choice, wasn't whipped by BIK and availability on the car list I would have chosen something with pure ICE instead.
Despite being in EV mode it will quite often start the engine up when the load required or other conditions dictate.
It has, several times, fired up a stone cold engine straight up to 5-6k revs when joining an A road or motorway slip road. That combined with sporadic manufacturer service intervals, bargain basement servicing by the lease company and 0w-20 oils means I wouldn't touch it or another used PHEV with a barge pole.
It's on 24k miles right now and as well as the usual VAG interior deterioration starting to take effect, the engine feels a bit rough compared to when it was new. I can't imagine it's going to be doing that well at 48k or 72k miles. Hard to believe it had a list price approaching £45k when new.
Far rather have a lighter weight 6/8 cylinder petrol estate but this is the system we’re being forced to play with.
It’s for the planet apparently.
I'd be wary of some of the European offerings particularly the ones with very weedy EV motors that will need the ICE to randomly fire up every time you want to accelerate remotely quickly.
I wouldn't rely on Toyota reliability to justify any old PHEV as they've put in quite a bit of built in protection. The normal pure hybrids will run the engine continously on a cold start and only cycle off and on once warm up is complete. They have some trick heat exchangers so it doesn't take long.
The PHEV setup in the Rav4 is designed to default operate as a pure EV - in EV mode, it doesn't fire up the engine at all even if you floor it. Thankfully with 230+ EV bhp it's still pretty quick.
When the EV range runs out or you manually select hybrid mode for the full 300+ bhp, it automatically completes a warm up cycle just like the pure hybrids. It continues relying on the battery to give full power until the engine is warm enough to rev hard.
Both setups mean the engine is never worked hard from a cold start. Not sure how BMW etc have engineered theirs but a friend in the trade warned me strongly against a 330e.
I wouldn't rely on Toyota reliability to justify any old PHEV as they've put in quite a bit of built in protection. The normal pure hybrids will run the engine continously on a cold start and only cycle off and on once warm up is complete. They have some trick heat exchangers so it doesn't take long.
The PHEV setup in the Rav4 is designed to default operate as a pure EV - in EV mode, it doesn't fire up the engine at all even if you floor it. Thankfully with 230+ EV bhp it's still pretty quick.
When the EV range runs out or you manually select hybrid mode for the full 300+ bhp, it automatically completes a warm up cycle just like the pure hybrids. It continues relying on the battery to give full power until the engine is warm enough to rev hard.
Both setups mean the engine is never worked hard from a cold start. Not sure how BMW etc have engineered theirs but a friend in the trade warned me strongly against a 330e.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff