RE: BMW confirms production hydrogen iX5 for 2028
Monday 22nd September
BMW confirms production hydrogen iX5 for 2028
If petrol, diesel, plug-in or PHEV doesn't suit, BMW will offer a fifth way with the next X5...
Never let it be said that BMW doesn’t offer its customers choice. Right now, there’s nothing to stop any of us (besides the £70k or so required) buying a rear-wheel drive, six-speed, 3.0-litre M2. And yet as soon as 2028 it will also sell a hydrogen fuel cell-powered X5. A technology that has always felt like science fiction, in the sense of it not being quite ready for the present day. Except in the case of the iX5 Hydrogen. BMW has completed its pilot fleet testing across the globe, and will soon be ready for market as the brand’s first series production hydrogen model.
It will be one of five (!) powertrain options for the next X5, with petrol, diesel, EV and PHEV also offered. Which must be another first. You might remember that BMW has been working with Toyota (which has already brought fuel cell cars like the Mirai to market) on hydrogen technology, an arrangement that now stretches back more than a decade.
This iX5 will use the third generation of their collaborative tech, which ‘can be seamlessly integrated into future vehicle architectures.’ Remarkable really that one X5 platform can accommodate everything from compression ignition to hydrogen. The latest fuel cell tech is said to be around 25 per cent smaller, and more power-dense than what’s been seen before, but we don’t know any specifics for the moment.
BMW suggests that hydrogen is ‘recognised as a promising future energy carrier for global decarbonisation.’ There won’t be much contesting that statement. The problem has always been infrastructure, with very few filling stations to make it a viable solution for most people. HyMoS might be part of the solution there, at least in certain markets. It stands for Hydrogen Mobility at Scale, an initiative that is currently supporting ‘hydrogen mobility ecosystems’ in Germany and France with BMW’s involvement to assess demand and improve infrastructure where required.
The aim is ‘to reach an optimal distribution and usage of hydrogen stations.’ There is also scope for expansion at a later date. Given how many EV chargers have popped up over the past decade, it’s not beyond the realms of possibility that more hydrogen filling stations will emerge, though the storage requirements make it a much more involved process. And the market niche would surely be small. Let’s see. Once upon a time the investment in BEVs seemed ill-judged, so who knows.
Joachim Post is on the board at BMW, and is in no doubt: “By launching the new BMW X5 with a choice of five drive system variants, we are once again demonstrating our leading position as a technology pioneer. Hydrogen has an essential part to play in global decarbonisation, which is why we are committed to driving the technology forward.” The fuel cells made in 2028 will be manufactured at the Steyr plant, with additional parts from the tech hub in Landshut. And for a taste of hydrogen fuel cell motoring right now, check this out: a Hyundai Nexo with just 5,000 miles, for £10,000. It was £65,995 new…
Discussion
The phrase dead duck springs to mind.
With the exception of heavy plant / machinery, possibly lorries / buses and some really outside use cases Hydrogen isn't feasible, for all the reasons previously stated ie inefficiency of obtaining hydrogen (green or brown), subsequent transportation + storage + distribution, inefficiencies of turning Hydrogen into electricity which then propel something when you can simply draw electricity from the grid, etc
Even "sustainable" fuels have more going for them, because the infrastructure already exists, than Hydrogen.
Toyota have of course dumped s
tonnes of cash into Hydrogen and couldn't make it work.
With the exception of heavy plant / machinery, possibly lorries / buses and some really outside use cases Hydrogen isn't feasible, for all the reasons previously stated ie inefficiency of obtaining hydrogen (green or brown), subsequent transportation + storage + distribution, inefficiencies of turning Hydrogen into electricity which then propel something when you can simply draw electricity from the grid, etc
Even "sustainable" fuels have more going for them, because the infrastructure already exists, than Hydrogen.
Toyota have of course dumped s
tonnes of cash into Hydrogen and couldn't make it work.
BigChiefmuffinAgain said:
It's the best technological solution. But the EV mob have the ear of governments for the moment. But that could change, especially if people start to fear China swamping the EV market.....
I'm wholly ignorant about Hydrogen so these are genuine questions. It's been muted for longer than EVs, so why hasn't it been adopted sooner?And from an infrastructure basis, electricity is every where. Every house, street, building, shop.... Petrol is a lot more difficult, but we've built an effective if slightly flawed infrastructure to supply it to the masses. How do we get Hydrogen?
The only reason BMW are developing this hydrogen iX5 is because they received 1.4-billion aid to pursue hydrogen vehicles from the The European Commission.
It's dead end-tech for regular domestic vehicle mobility.
Toyota have tried, with two cars over 12 years, and even in California (State with advanced and strict vehicle emissions laws) they are closing hydrogen filling stations and Toyota is paying compensation back to owners.
Shock - China can also makes Fuel Cell EV's !
(hydrogen cars)
You either know nothing about how hydrogen vehicles work, or are trolling
It's dead end-tech for regular domestic vehicle mobility.
Toyota have tried, with two cars over 12 years, and even in California (State with advanced and strict vehicle emissions laws) they are closing hydrogen filling stations and Toyota is paying compensation back to owners.
PSB1967 said:
One way to protect the European car industry from the Chinese BEV onslaught is to move the goal posts. A Euro centric hydrogen mandate for say 2040 and a ban on BEV by 2050. After all, the Chinese can't buy up all the Hydrogen reserves. Happy Monday everyone!!!
This comment makes zero - The Chinese can't 'buy up' all the electric reserves either, but they are close to dominating the BEV market.Shock - China can also makes Fuel Cell EV's !
(hydrogen cars)BigChiefmuffinAgain said:
It's the best technological solution..
The best tech solution ? You either know nothing about how hydrogen vehicles work, or are trolling
Wardy78 said:
BigChiefmuffinAgain said:
It's the best technological solution. But the EV mob have the ear of governments for the moment. But that could change, especially if people start to fear China swamping the EV market.....
I'm wholly ignorant about Hydrogen so these are genuine questions. It's been muted for longer than EVs, so why hasn't it been adopted sooner?And from an infrastructure basis, electricity is every where. Every house, street, building, shop.... Petrol is a lot more difficult, but we've built an effective if slightly flawed infrastructure to supply it to the masses. How do we get Hydrogen?
The supposed benefit of hydrogen (fueling time) is also pretty much closing in on being irrelevant now. Zeekr have a car on sale in China that charges from 10-80% in 9mins and by 2028, I'd say that most new EVs will do similar, and there will be a vast array of 400kW plus chargers out there compared to 3 or 4 Hydrogen stations.
So your choice is going to be a BEV that you can slow charge at home for a few quid and occasionally charge in the space of 5-10mins at one of many convenient locations, or a Hydrogen BEV that you will have to drive miles out of your way to fuel. The maths just doesn't math.
Wardy78 said:
BigChiefmuffinAgain said:
It's the best technological solution. But the EV mob have the ear of governments for the moment. But that could change, especially if people start to fear China swamping the EV market.....
I'm wholly ignorant about Hydrogen so these are genuine questions. It's been muted for longer than EVs, so why hasn't it been adopted sooner?-> Expensive fuel: due to requiring more electricity to make hydrogen, then it provides back. [It requires significant electricity to make hydrogen, which is then used via a fuel cell and battery to convert the hydrogen back into electricity, to drive the vehicle]
-> Energy Losses: Significant energy is lost during the entire process of hydrogen production, compression, transport, and conversion back to electricity in the car's fuel cell.
-> Lower Efficiency: The overall energy efficiency for the "plug-to-wheel" process of a hydrogen car is currently much lower than that of a battery-electric vehicle
->Low Energy Density: Hydrogen has very low volumetric energy density, meaning it takes up a lot of space for a given amount of energy.
-> High Pressure Tanks: To get a reasonable driving range, hydrogen must be stored under extremely high pressure (10,000 PSI), which adds complexity and cost to the vehicle. The Hydrogen storage tanks in cars need to replaced every 10 years due to embrittlement.
-> Leakage: Hydrogen leaks from storage tanks over time and needs to be kept under strict control to prevent energy loss and potential hazards.
-> Filling stations : After 3-4 cars have filled up, the hydrogen tanks needs to cycle more hydrogen ,which takes 20+ mins
-> Filling nozzle : the hydrogen fuel nozzles often freeze up, stopping filling, so require a heating element to prevent this from occurring.
Edited by SDK on Monday 22 September 12:02
SDK said:
Wardy78 said:
BigChiefmuffinAgain said:
It's the best technological solution. But the EV mob have the ear of governments for the moment. But that could change, especially if people start to fear China swamping the EV market.....
I'm wholly ignorant about Hydrogen so these are genuine questions. It's been muted for longer than EVs, so why hasn't it been adopted sooner?-> Expensive fuel: due to requiring more electricity to make hydrogen, then it provides back. [It requires significant electricity to make hydrogen, which is then used via a fuel cell and battery to convert the hydrogen back into electricity, to drive the vehicle]
-> Energy Losses: Significant energy is lost during the entire process of hydrogen production, compression, transport, and conversion back to electricity in the car's fuel cell.
-> Lower Efficiency: The overall energy efficiency for the "plug-to-wheel" process of a hydrogen car is currently much lower than that of a battery-electric vehicle
->Low Energy Density: Hydrogen has very low volumetric energy density, meaning it takes up a lot of space for a given amount of energy.
-> High Pressure Tanks: To get a reasonable driving range, hydrogen must be stored under extremely high pressure (10,000 PSI), which adds complexity and cost to the vehicle.
-> Leakage: Hydrogen leaks from storage tanks over time and needs to be kept under strict control to prevent energy loss and potential hazards.
-> Filling stations : After 3-4 cars have filled up, the hydrogen tanks needs to cycle more hydrogen ,which takes 20+ mins
-> Filling nozzle : the hydrogen fuel nozzles often freeze up, stopping filling, so require a heating element to prevent this from occurring.
Wardy78 said:
SDK said:
Wardy78 said:
BigChiefmuffinAgain said:
It's the best technological solution. But the EV mob have the ear of governments for the moment. But that could change, especially if people start to fear China swamping the EV market.....
I'm wholly ignorant about Hydrogen so these are genuine questions. It's been muted for longer than EVs, so why hasn't it been adopted sooner?-> Expensive fuel: due to requiring more electricity to make hydrogen, then it provides back. [It requires significant electricity to make hydrogen, which is then used via a fuel cell and battery to convert the hydrogen back into electricity, to drive the vehicle]
-> Energy Losses: Significant energy is lost during the entire process of hydrogen production, compression, transport, and conversion back to electricity in the car's fuel cell.
-> Lower Efficiency: The overall energy efficiency for the "plug-to-wheel" process of a hydrogen car is currently much lower than that of a battery-electric vehicle
->Low Energy Density: Hydrogen has very low volumetric energy density, meaning it takes up a lot of space for a given amount of energy.
-> High Pressure Tanks: To get a reasonable driving range, hydrogen must be stored under extremely high pressure (10,000 PSI), which adds complexity and cost to the vehicle.
-> Leakage: Hydrogen leaks from storage tanks over time and needs to be kept under strict control to prevent energy loss and potential hazards.
-> Filling stations : After 3-4 cars have filled up, the hydrogen tanks needs to cycle more hydrogen ,which takes 20+ mins
-> Filling nozzle : the hydrogen fuel nozzles often freeze up, stopping filling, so require a heating element to prevent this from occurring.
Geoffcapes said:
I think I'm in the minority when I say I think H2 is the way forward.
But hey! Only time will tell!
Its just an EV thats much less efficient, not seeing the advantage.But hey! Only time will tell!
Time has told, you cant really buy Hydrogen or a vehicle to put it in, 12 or so fuelling stations in the Uk, mostly in the South East, but apparently the infrastructure is not up to EV's.
You think a battery failure will get spendy, look up the cost of a new Hydrogen Fuel Cell for a Mirai, and it still has a small battery as well
I am sure if they called them a Hydrogen cars more the correct name "FCEV" (Fuel Cell Electric Vehicle) then there would be less enthusiasm, am sure some just think they are ICE engines that you just squirt different juice into and off we go like nothing happened
I speak to people who say "Of course, hydrogen is the future", and when you delve deeper they dont like EV's (despite never having driven one) and Hydrogen = "Not an EV" in their minds, but it very much is a worse EV, more complex when you delve into it.
Like the Porsche tack change, BMW hedging their bets by covering all bases doesnt change the direction of travel, in the meantime improving battery tech will make it redundant before it gains any traction.
Am sure Hydrogen has a future, but not for passenger cars in the next twenty years, ask yourself, would you spend seventy grand on a car you can only fuel up at 12 places ? And its not like they are opening new ones all the time, Japan has the most mature Hydrogen use but even that is tiny, Germany has a few. Dont think we will be able to order a UK spec Right hand drive Hydrogen X5 somehow....
J4CKO said:
Geoffcapes said:
I think I'm in the minority when I say I think H2 is the way forward.
But hey! Only time will tell!
Its just an EV thats much less efficient, not seeing the advantage.But hey! Only time will tell!
Time has told, you cant really buy Hydrogen or a vehicle to put it in, 12 or so fuelling stations in the Uk, mostly in the South East, but apparently the infrastructure is not up to EV's.
You think a battery failure will get spendy, look up the cost of a new Hydrogen Fuel Cell for a Mirai, and it still has a small battery as well
I am sure if they called them a Hydrogen cars more the correct name "FCEV" (Fuel Cell Electric Vehicle) then there would be less enthusiasm, am sure some just think they are ICE engines that you just squirt different juice into and off we go like nothing happened
I speak to people who say "Of course, hydrogen is the future", and when you delve deeper they dont like EV's (despite never having driven one) and Hydrogen = "Not an EV" in their minds, but it very much is a worse EV, more complex when you delve into it.
Like the Porsche tack change, BMW hedging their bets by covering all bases doesnt change the direction of travel, in the meantime improving battery tech will make it redundant before it gains any traction.
Am sure Hydrogen has a future, but not for passenger cars in the next twenty years, ask yourself, would you spend seventy grand on a car you can only fuel up at 12 places ? And its not like they are opening new ones all the time, Japan has the most mature Hydrogen use but even that is tiny, Germany has a few. Dont think we will be able to order a UK spec Right hand drive Hydrogen X5 somehow....
https://www.ukh2mobility.co.uk/stations/
What a mess Petrol/Diesel/Mild Hybrid/PHEV/HEV/BEV and now Hydrogen not forgetting LPG.
It's almost like a group of people has enacted arbitrary legislation and matched that to a made up timeframe that sounded good on the evening news and now everything is a right old buggers muddle.
Wardy78 said:
I'm wholly ignorant about Hydrogen so these are genuine questions. It's been muted for longer than EVs, so why hasn't it been adopted sooner?
And from an infrastructure basis, electricity is every where. Every house, street, building, shop.... Petrol is a lot more difficult, but we've built an effective if slightly flawed infrastructure to supply it to the masses. How do we get Hydrogen?
Look for your nearest hydrogen filling station.And from an infrastructure basis, electricity is every where. Every house, street, building, shop.... Petrol is a lot more difficult, but we've built an effective if slightly flawed infrastructure to supply it to the masses. How do we get Hydrogen?
jimmytheone said:
The phrase dead duck springs to mind.
With the exception of heavy plant / machinery, possibly lorries / buses and some really outside use cases Hydrogen isn't feasible, for all the reasons previously stated ie inefficiency of obtaining hydrogen (green or brown), subsequent transportation + storage + distribution, inefficiencies of turning Hydrogen into electricity which then propel something when you can simply draw electricity from the grid, etc
Even "sustainable" fuels have more going for them, because the infrastructure already exists, than Hydrogen.
Toyota have of course dumped stonnes of cash into Hydrogen and couldn't make it work.
You don’t need to transport hydrogen, you generate it on site. A 2MW electrolyser is sized to supply a typical fuelling station demand for 24hrs. Just need tap water and power (green the grid the greener the hydrogen). With the exception of heavy plant / machinery, possibly lorries / buses and some really outside use cases Hydrogen isn't feasible, for all the reasons previously stated ie inefficiency of obtaining hydrogen (green or brown), subsequent transportation + storage + distribution, inefficiencies of turning Hydrogen into electricity which then propel something when you can simply draw electricity from the grid, etc
Even "sustainable" fuels have more going for them, because the infrastructure already exists, than Hydrogen.
Toyota have of course dumped s
tonnes of cash into Hydrogen and couldn't make it work.BEVs aren’t going to work for high mileage use cases unless they come up with a better solution than just chucking bigger batteries at things.
H2 has made massive leaps forward with a fraction of the subsidies that BEV received.
Wills2 said:
What a mess Petrol/Diesel/Mild Hybrid/PHEV/HEV/BEV and now Hydrogen not forgetting LPG.
It's almost like a group of people has enacted arbitrary legislation and matched that to a made up timeframe that sounded good on the evening news and now everything is a right old buggers muddle.
There is still clockwork, flywheel and compressed air storage to fit in the range. And a steam turbine.It's almost like a group of people has enacted arbitrary legislation and matched that to a made up timeframe that sounded good on the evening news and now everything is a right old buggers muddle.
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