PHEV running costs
Discussion
Firstly, I bought a PHEV because it has more power than the petrol and I like the way it drove, so not particularly bothered by running cost, but I thought this was interesting and wondered if anyone else has done a similar calculation.
On a motorway drive with a flat battery my NX450h does 45-50 mpg (more than I expected from a 2 tonne SUV). Petrol here in the Netherlands is about €1.90/liter at moment, so at 45 mpg (16 km/liter) it's costing about €0.12/km.
I've not done enough electric diving yet to know real figures, but the internet reckons it does about 4km/kWh. To match the €0.12/km cost of petrol I'd need to buy electricity at €0.48/kWh.
The public chargers around me are all €0.48/kWh so it's exactly the same price to run on electric as petrol!
Obviously around town, where I'd use electric, the electric is more worth it, as that 45mpg is a best case cruising on the motorway.
Proper EV's look to be doing 5-6 km/kWh, which would be the equivalent of 56 to 67 MPG at my local prices so a bigger benefit but I can see why most people don't want to use public chargers very often.
On a motorway drive with a flat battery my NX450h does 45-50 mpg (more than I expected from a 2 tonne SUV). Petrol here in the Netherlands is about €1.90/liter at moment, so at 45 mpg (16 km/liter) it's costing about €0.12/km.
I've not done enough electric diving yet to know real figures, but the internet reckons it does about 4km/kWh. To match the €0.12/km cost of petrol I'd need to buy electricity at €0.48/kWh.
The public chargers around me are all €0.48/kWh so it's exactly the same price to run on electric as petrol!
Obviously around town, where I'd use electric, the electric is more worth it, as that 45mpg is a best case cruising on the motorway.
Proper EV's look to be doing 5-6 km/kWh, which would be the equivalent of 56 to 67 MPG at my local prices so a bigger benefit but I can see why most people don't want to use public chargers very often.
My wife has a phev, but 90% of journeys are localish electric only (40 mile range in summer 30 in winter, @7pKwh)
Think it used 2 tanks of petrol in the last year!
Maybe a full EV would have been better, but I have one. So the phev has been quite handy doing very long trips. Save mine..
It drives well tbh, floor it & the petrol & electric combine.
We have a home Ev charger, but the phev usually just charged via external 3 pin plug using the cars timer for the cheap rate.
Think it used 2 tanks of petrol in the last year!
Maybe a full EV would have been better, but I have one. So the phev has been quite handy doing very long trips. Save mine..
It drives well tbh, floor it & the petrol & electric combine.
We have a home Ev charger, but the phev usually just charged via external 3 pin plug using the cars timer for the cheap rate.
RizzoTheRat said:
Firstly, I bought a PHEV because it has more power than the petrol and I like the way it drove, so not particularly bothered by running cost, but I thought this was interesting and wondered if anyone else has done a similar calculation.
With you on the "more power" part. And I get a certain amount of pleasure from knowing I'm tailpipe emission free around town (and France's electric supply is very low carbon thanks to its nuclear estate)RizzoTheRat said:
On a motorway drive with a flat battery my NX450h does 45-50 mpg (more than I expected from a 2 tonne SUV). Petrol here in the Netherlands is about 1.90/liter at moment, so at 45 mpg (16 km/liter) it's costing about 0.12/km.
I've not done enough electric diving yet to know real figures, but the internet reckons it does about 4km/kWh. To match the 0.12/km cost of petrol I'd need to buy electricity at 0.48/kWh.
The public chargers around me are all 0.48/kWh so it's exactly the same price to run on electric as petrol!
Obviously around town, where I'd use electric, the electric is more worth it, as that 45mpg is a best case cruising on the motorway.
Proper EV's look to be doing 5-6 km/kWh, which would be the equivalent of 56 to 67 MPG at my local prices so a bigger benefit but I can see why most people don't want to use public chargers very often.
Two months and 1300 miles in with my Citroen C5X PHEV I've yet to do a tank without using plug in power. Will do later this month and look forward to finding out the result. I'm expecting around 40mpg. The best actual electric consumption so far looks like 3 miles/kWh. (12.4kWh battery, 37 miles range). I've not done enough electric diving yet to know real figures, but the internet reckons it does about 4km/kWh. To match the 0.12/km cost of petrol I'd need to buy electricity at 0.48/kWh.
The public chargers around me are all 0.48/kWh so it's exactly the same price to run on electric as petrol!
Obviously around town, where I'd use electric, the electric is more worth it, as that 45mpg is a best case cruising on the motorway.
Proper EV's look to be doing 5-6 km/kWh, which would be the equivalent of 56 to 67 MPG at my local prices so a bigger benefit but I can see why most people don't want to use public chargers very often.
On the upcoming visit to the UK I think 50p/kWh is the breakeven point. Looking at places we will be stopping on ZapMap, nowhere south of the border seems to be that cheap. North of the border I found some chargers around 45p.
Thinking about how much colder it will be in Scotland in October than it is in France in September I think I might need to lower my target cost of electricity or accept that it might be more expensive than petrol. But the manual suggests you should avoid running with a fully depleted battery. Sorry, What, Pardon.
There's a reader's car thread if anyone is interested.
I bought it in the UK and drove back to the Netherlands via Dunkirk and a meeting in Belgium, The podpoint I tried at at Tesco's wasn't working and the hotel in Belgium had Tesla Superchargers that I can't use (I'm type 2 only), so I had a decent run with no charge in the battery to see how did on petrol alone. Off to Germany tomorrow night, with about 70% charge, based on the above calculations I'm not too bothered about charging before I go, and petrol in Germany is about 20 c/liter cheaper!
I think our domestic rate is about 28c/kWh (equivalent to about 75mpg), not worth going to an EV tariff as we won't use enough to make it worthwhile but hopefully getting power to the garage soon, and using a granny charger will be fine.
I think our domestic rate is about 28c/kWh (equivalent to about 75mpg), not worth going to an EV tariff as we won't use enough to make it worthwhile but hopefully getting power to the garage soon, and using a granny charger will be fine.
Edited by RizzoTheRat on Wednesday 1st October 13:11
Yeah, the whole point of an EV is that you charge it at home as much as possible though. I am a recent convert, 80% of my driving will be satisfied by charging at 7p / kWh.
10% of my charging will be out and about for work, and expensed so not really bothered.
10% will be at the mercy of fast public charging out of my own pocket.
Overall it'll be much cheaper than any ICE or PHEV I expect. Horses for courses though, if you're doing loads of miles and want plenty of range with a little bit of improved efficiency and can't be bothered to stop and charge, I can see why you'd go PHEV.
10% of my charging will be out and about for work, and expensed so not really bothered.
10% will be at the mercy of fast public charging out of my own pocket.
Overall it'll be much cheaper than any ICE or PHEV I expect. Horses for courses though, if you're doing loads of miles and want plenty of range with a little bit of improved efficiency and can't be bothered to stop and charge, I can see why you'd go PHEV.
posting as an outlying datapoint....
PacNW and local grid is dominated by contribution from local hydro generation. As a public utility it's one of those rare occasions where price is determined by cost and residential charges are 8.8c per kWh. So a Model Y charging at home works out at about 2.4c per mile.
Which is ridiculous in itself, but almost as weird is that cost of OE tires at about $350 a corner is about 3.5c per mile!!
PacNW and local grid is dominated by contribution from local hydro generation. As a public utility it's one of those rare occasions where price is determined by cost and residential charges are 8.8c per kWh. So a Model Y charging at home works out at about 2.4c per mile.
Which is ridiculous in itself, but almost as weird is that cost of OE tires at about $350 a corner is about 3.5c per mile!!
ShortBeardy said:
posting as an outlying datapoint....
PacNW and local grid is dominated by contribution from local hydro generation. As a public utility it's one of those rare occasions where price is determined by cost and residential charges are 8.8c per kWh. So a Model Y charging at home works out at about 2.4c per mile.
Which is ridiculous in itself, but almost as weird is that cost of OE tires at about $350 a corner is about 3.5c per mile!!
We have a new model y, the oem tyres in the uk come out at £200 each .PacNW and local grid is dominated by contribution from local hydro generation. As a public utility it's one of those rare occasions where price is determined by cost and residential charges are 8.8c per kWh. So a Model Y charging at home works out at about 2.4c per mile.
Which is ridiculous in itself, but almost as weird is that cost of OE tires at about $350 a corner is about 3.5c per mile!!
RotorRambler said:
My wife has a phev, but 90% of journeys are localish electric only (40 mile range in summer 30 in winter, @7pKwh)
Think it used 2 tanks of petrol in the last year!
Maybe a full EV would have been better, but I have one.
SiL had one for a while and she had to charge at both ends every day. 50km trip, charge home, charge at the office.Think it used 2 tanks of petrol in the last year!
Maybe a full EV would have been better, but I have one.
But the leasing was set up in a way she had quite the benefit from it.
In the end she had something similar, filling up once or twice a year. So she got a full EV as her next one indeed. I've seen it being a "gateway" car in a lot of cases.
Home charging is a must though. I'd say even more so with a PHEV, as you'd need to charge a lot more frequent to make it worth your while? It's been one of the main critisism on PHEV in NL when they just arrived. People got them for the tax incentives, but then never charged them, in which case they are just heavier versions of the MHEV.
bimsb6 said:
We have a new model y, the oem tyres in the uk come out at £200 each .
Michelin Pilot Sports on my Model S were about the same.Edited by ZesPak on Friday 3rd October 10:53
bimsb6 said:
ZesPak said:
SiL had one for a while and she had to charge at both ends every day. 50km trip, charge home, charge at the office.
Was that a leaf by any chance ? The smaller battery has a very limited range .ZesPak said:
SiL had one for a while and she had to charge at both ends every day. 50km trip, charge home, charge at the office.
But the leasing was set up in a way she had quite the benefit from it.
That reminded me of a question I wanted to raise here. Aiui, frequent full-empty, full-empty battery cycles are a prime cause of degradation, limiting battery life. While this is not a concern for users of lease cars, is it really a problem? Have there been cases of serious loss of capacity or even failure in relatively short time frames?But the leasing was set up in a way she had quite the benefit from it.
A lot of PHEVs seem to be used in this way and many have been around for some years so I suspect it's not a great problem.
Mikehig said:
That reminded me of a question I wanted to raise here. Aiui, frequent full-empty, full-empty battery cycles are a prime cause of degradation, limiting battery life. While this is not a concern for users of lease cars, is it really a problem? Have there been cases of serious loss of capacity or even failure in relatively short time frames?
A lot of PHEVs seem to be used in this way and many have been around for some years so I suspect it's not a great problem.
PHEV's batteries suffer for multiple reasons, hence they catch fire a lot more than EV and even more often than ICE.A lot of PHEVs seem to be used in this way and many have been around for some years so I suspect it's not a great problem.
They're pretty well documented to not last that long.
That said, diminished capacity doesn't really hurt the range of the car, just the electric range. Even a basically dead battery will still have a working ICE behind it.
As for the other reasons they suffer:
- People expect them to work without the ICE, which means they have to output over 100kw, which often is well over 6C. That's the equivalent of 800hp in a Tesla Model S. Not quite plaid levels, but often much longer sustained and repeated.
- Similar for regen, they get stressed relatively heavy for their size.
- Often packaging is a bit of an issue, with them close to the exhaust and other components that get hot.
ZesPak said:
PHEV's batteries suffer for multiple reasons, hence they catch fire a lot more than EV and even more often than ICE.
They're pretty well documented to not last that long.
That said, diminished capacity doesn't really hurt the range of the car, just the electric range. Even a basically dead battery will still have a working ICE behind it.
As for the other reasons they suffer:
Lexus will extend the warranty 10 years and 100k miles if I get it serviced with them, and then up to 15 years on the battery with an annual battery check, so they must be pretty confident in the reliability.They're pretty well documented to not last that long.
That said, diminished capacity doesn't really hurt the range of the car, just the electric range. Even a basically dead battery will still have a working ICE behind it.
As for the other reasons they suffer:
- People expect them to work without the ICE, which means they have to output over 100kw, which often is well over 6C. That's the equivalent of 800hp in a Tesla Model S. Not quite plaid levels, but often much longer sustained and repeated.
- Similar for regen, they get stressed relatively heavy for their size.
- Often packaging is a bit of an issue, with them close to the exhaust and other components that get hot.
ZesPak said:
Mikehig said:
That reminded me of a question I wanted to raise here. Aiui, frequent full-empty, full-empty battery cycles are a prime cause of degradation, limiting battery life. While this is not a concern for users of lease cars, is it really a problem? Have there been cases of serious loss of capacity or even failure in relatively short time frames?
A lot of PHEVs seem to be used in this way and many have been around for some years so I suspect it's not a great problem.
PHEV's batteries suffer for multiple reasons, hence they catch fire a lot more than EV and even more often than ICE.A lot of PHEVs seem to be used in this way and many have been around for some years so I suspect it's not a great problem.
They're pretty well documented to not last that long.
That said, diminished capacity doesn't really hurt the range of the car, just the electric range. Even a basically dead battery will still have a working ICE behind it.
As for the other reasons they suffer:
- People expect them to work without the ICE, which means they have to output over 100kw, which often is well over 6C. That's the equivalent of 800hp in a Tesla Model S. Not quite plaid levels, but often much longer sustained and repeated.
- Similar for regen, they get stressed relatively heavy for their size.
- Often packaging is a bit of an issue, with them close to the exhaust and other components that get hot.
One question: if the battery dies will they still work? Don't they use integrated starter/generators which need the battery to start the engine?
RizzoTheRat said:
Lexus will extend the warranty 10 years and 100k miles if I get it serviced with them, and then up to 15 years on the battery with an annual battery check, so they must be pretty confident in the reliability.
I should have added : with the exception of Toyota. Mikehig said:
Thanks for that info. I am sometimes asked about cars but my interest is mainly sports and classics so this fills some gaps wrt battery issues.
One question: if the battery dies will they still work? Don't they use integrated starter/generators which need the battery to start the engine?
In all fairness, li ion batteries really "dying" is probably something that happens only very rarely. The only hybrids I know of with real dead batteries were original Prius, and they can run without that hv battery. Remember that these were still NiMH batteries.One question: if the battery dies will they still work? Don't they use integrated starter/generators which need the battery to start the engine?
We'll see in 5 more years when we've got thousands of PHEVs. It's also just the sheer complexity that would scare me off tbh.
ZesPak said:
RizzoTheRat said:
Lexus will extend the warranty 10 years and 100k miles if I get it serviced with them, and then up to 15 years on the battery with an annual battery check, so they must be pretty confident in the reliability.
I should have added : with the exception of Toyota. Was 8 years, “battery and high voltage components” extended to 10 years after recent recall
Edited by RotorRambler on Friday 3rd October 19:47
Gassing Station | EV and Alternative Fuels | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff