What brought on the demise of the traditional family car?
Discussion
For most of my life, the Cortina/Sierra/Mondeo/Cavalier/Vectra/Insignia have been a common sight on UK roads and have featured in the UK top 10 bestsellers list but about 15 years ago, they just seemed to sink without trace and obviously the Insignia/Mondeo have now been discontinued. Contrast this to the mid-90s, which was probably the peak for this class of car when there was a 12+ strong grid of large family cars in the BTCC: Mondeo, Cavalier/Vectra, Laguna, 405/406, Accord, Carina, Primera, Xedos 6, Volvo 850/S40, Alfa 155, 3-Series, A4 but there were other options such as the Citroen Xantia, VW Passat and Rover 600 too. In the 90s one of my uncles had Sierras, the other Montegos and then a 405, 406 and a mk1 Laguna and my dad had Peugeot 405s. Even going into the early 2000s though, this style of car was still pretty popular.
So out of a field of 15 or so cars, there are only perhaps 5 or 6 cars left with the Peugeot 508 and Skoda Octavia being perhaps the only non- premium offerings? So why did this class of car die, as they were affordable, both new and used, practical (especially the ones available as large hatchbacks), generally well-equipped for the money and cheap to run. Don't get me wrong, there are different kinds of large family car (G31 530d Touring/Volvo XC90) that appeal but they are relatively expensive (15k+) and more expensive to run than the traditional large family car. Of course you can go for a cheaper/smaller BMW/Mercedes/Audi but the practicality tends to have been compromised in the name of style and they will be older/higher miles/potentially unreliable and expensive to fix. I have a few theories pertaining to the demise of the traditional large family car.
1) The rise of the crossover. I suppose we have Nissan to thank for this but whereas the P10/P11 Primera was a well-built, reliable car that had quite sophisticated suspension and drove really well, the Qashqai is not that well built or reliable, has pretty cheap suspension and doesn't drive all that well. Even the premium crossovers feel a bit cheap in comparison to a 3-Series/A4/C-Class for example. Good ones do exist, I drove a new Honda CRV Hybrid fairly recently and that was really good but it s a 50k car, so not very affordable.
2) Cheap finance meant that you could get a 3-Series/A4/C-Class for a similar payment to a Mondeo/Vectra/Insignia and those cars were a bit more aspirational for most people, so around about the early 2000s, you saw the BMW 3-Series outselling the Mondeo/Vectra in the sales charts. They tended to hold their value a bit better than a Ford/Vauxhall too, which negated the price premium a little.
3) The manufacturers have put less effort into their large family car offerings due to declining sales. In the 80s/90s, you might drive a Fiesta/Escort/Nova/Corsa/Astra because that was all that you could afford but a Sierra/Mondeo/Cavalier/Vectra was just a nicer car (ie bigger was better), therefore more aspirational and there was usually a high performance version to aspire to that made you feel better about owning the 1.6 L. The original Mondeo was a cracking car but the last time I changed my car, I did consider a final generation Mondeo but the one that I test drove felt a bit unfinished and the mk7 Golf Estate that I bought instead felt a lot more polished. I ve driven a last generation Mazda 6 and that was great but the diesels are very unreliable and not being available as a hatchback limits its appeal/practicality somewhat.
4) The small family car class ie Focus/Golf seems to be still thriving and selling well, so maybe this class of car just got exponentially better and the large family car class stagnated? A mk1 Mondeo was leagues ahead of a mk5/6 Escort but the Focus ran it a lot closer and got bigger, so still spacious, refined and good to drive but easier to park, more economical and less expensive? Likewise the Golf vs. the Passat. I find that this class of car offers very good space for passengers now but the compromise is in the cargo space ie I loved my mk7 Golf Estate but the cargo area was considerably smaller than a Passat Estate or even a traditional large family car with a hatchback.
So what in your opinion brought on the demise of the traditional large family car?
So out of a field of 15 or so cars, there are only perhaps 5 or 6 cars left with the Peugeot 508 and Skoda Octavia being perhaps the only non- premium offerings? So why did this class of car die, as they were affordable, both new and used, practical (especially the ones available as large hatchbacks), generally well-equipped for the money and cheap to run. Don't get me wrong, there are different kinds of large family car (G31 530d Touring/Volvo XC90) that appeal but they are relatively expensive (15k+) and more expensive to run than the traditional large family car. Of course you can go for a cheaper/smaller BMW/Mercedes/Audi but the practicality tends to have been compromised in the name of style and they will be older/higher miles/potentially unreliable and expensive to fix. I have a few theories pertaining to the demise of the traditional large family car.
1) The rise of the crossover. I suppose we have Nissan to thank for this but whereas the P10/P11 Primera was a well-built, reliable car that had quite sophisticated suspension and drove really well, the Qashqai is not that well built or reliable, has pretty cheap suspension and doesn't drive all that well. Even the premium crossovers feel a bit cheap in comparison to a 3-Series/A4/C-Class for example. Good ones do exist, I drove a new Honda CRV Hybrid fairly recently and that was really good but it s a 50k car, so not very affordable.
2) Cheap finance meant that you could get a 3-Series/A4/C-Class for a similar payment to a Mondeo/Vectra/Insignia and those cars were a bit more aspirational for most people, so around about the early 2000s, you saw the BMW 3-Series outselling the Mondeo/Vectra in the sales charts. They tended to hold their value a bit better than a Ford/Vauxhall too, which negated the price premium a little.
3) The manufacturers have put less effort into their large family car offerings due to declining sales. In the 80s/90s, you might drive a Fiesta/Escort/Nova/Corsa/Astra because that was all that you could afford but a Sierra/Mondeo/Cavalier/Vectra was just a nicer car (ie bigger was better), therefore more aspirational and there was usually a high performance version to aspire to that made you feel better about owning the 1.6 L. The original Mondeo was a cracking car but the last time I changed my car, I did consider a final generation Mondeo but the one that I test drove felt a bit unfinished and the mk7 Golf Estate that I bought instead felt a lot more polished. I ve driven a last generation Mazda 6 and that was great but the diesels are very unreliable and not being available as a hatchback limits its appeal/practicality somewhat.
4) The small family car class ie Focus/Golf seems to be still thriving and selling well, so maybe this class of car just got exponentially better and the large family car class stagnated? A mk1 Mondeo was leagues ahead of a mk5/6 Escort but the Focus ran it a lot closer and got bigger, so still spacious, refined and good to drive but easier to park, more economical and less expensive? Likewise the Golf vs. the Passat. I find that this class of car offers very good space for passengers now but the compromise is in the cargo space ie I loved my mk7 Golf Estate but the cargo area was considerably smaller than a Passat Estate or even a traditional large family car with a hatchback.
So what in your opinion brought on the demise of the traditional large family car?
Edited by white_goodman on Wednesday 8th October 18:50
Edited by white_goodman on Wednesday 8th October 20:10
Edited by white_goodman on Wednesday 8th October 20:11
Edited by white_goodman on Wednesday 8th October 20:12
Edited by white_goodman on Wednesday 8th October 20:14
Edited by white_goodman on Wednesday 8th October 20:18
Muddle238 said:
The rise of the SUV.
Every manufacturer jumped on the bandwagon, and now you can have various flavour/size of crossover but few actually offering a traditional saloon/estate family car.
It's a massive shame.
Yeah, it's not an improvement. I don't have an issue with something with proper off-road ability or extra seats but a tall car with very firm suspension to stop it rolling around like a blancmange doesn't seem like progress.Every manufacturer jumped on the bandwagon, and now you can have various flavour/size of crossover but few actually offering a traditional saloon/estate family car.
It's a massive shame.
Image, fashion call it what you will.
It became all about being stylish even to the point of ugly (Fiat 500L anyone) being somehow chic, same as when estate cars morphed into slightly longer hatchbacks losing completely the very points of their exsistance.
A lot of the problem was just how good some of the cars you mention were, those designed and built in the 90s and early noughties were some of the very best cars ever made, simply put if looked after reasonably they could provide you with at least 20 years reliable service and well beyond that for competent owners who could diy service them for pennies.
Few makers replaced those cars with equivalents that could stand the test of time to the same degree, that era of cars was too good and many makers weren't making that mistake again, what was the point in replacing your Peug 406 with another saloon which was a lesser car in every respect including looks, the 407 estate being nothing like as useful as the 406.
During the noughties i used to transport loads of RangeRovers and MINIs to So'ton docks for export, the multi story park beside those new car export lanes was filled with the very cars you mention all waiting to go to the third world whilst Brit car buyers started signing themselves up to the pay monthly renting of less reliable tech laden but presumably fashionable replacements.
Made me sad every visit seeing the very best of the country's used car stock leaving, 406s 850s and 4runners featured regularly on that car park.
It became all about being stylish even to the point of ugly (Fiat 500L anyone) being somehow chic, same as when estate cars morphed into slightly longer hatchbacks losing completely the very points of their exsistance.
A lot of the problem was just how good some of the cars you mention were, those designed and built in the 90s and early noughties were some of the very best cars ever made, simply put if looked after reasonably they could provide you with at least 20 years reliable service and well beyond that for competent owners who could diy service them for pennies.
Few makers replaced those cars with equivalents that could stand the test of time to the same degree, that era of cars was too good and many makers weren't making that mistake again, what was the point in replacing your Peug 406 with another saloon which was a lesser car in every respect including looks, the 407 estate being nothing like as useful as the 406.
During the noughties i used to transport loads of RangeRovers and MINIs to So'ton docks for export, the multi story park beside those new car export lanes was filled with the very cars you mention all waiting to go to the third world whilst Brit car buyers started signing themselves up to the pay monthly renting of less reliable tech laden but presumably fashionable replacements.
Made me sad every visit seeing the very best of the country's used car stock leaving, 406s 850s and 4runners featured regularly on that car park.
Older drivers, particularly women prefer the higher stance of CUV/SUV/crossover type vehicles for sure as they are much easier to enter/exit.; it is not about off-road capability. The rise of the hatchback wiped out the traditional three box design because it had more versatility.
While I am not sure about the longevity of current car due to the electronics, there is no question in my mind that they do not need as much maintenance as the old stuff and in my experience are more reliable. I have put big mileages on a variety of cars with no problems from Buicks to Porsches.
While I am not sure about the longevity of current car due to the electronics, there is no question in my mind that they do not need as much maintenance as the old stuff and in my experience are more reliable. I have put big mileages on a variety of cars with no problems from Buicks to Porsches.
Engineering development and credit development simply allowed free thinking adults to chose the cars they really wanted. Those cars all died out because free people didn't want them and no longer had to keep having them.
If people didn't still want them then they'd still be being made in even greater volumes than ever before. But they don't, so they aren't.
If people didn't still want them then they'd still be being made in even greater volumes than ever before. But they don't, so they aren't.
Because saloons are a bit useless by and large for people’s lifestyles.
Partly fashions change but a Qashqai is a much more useful vehicle than a saloon or hatch by and large, less so an estate but they do seem to end up with more space. Would nt say a Qashqai is fashionable
Wouldnt hold the Primera up as a beacon of quality over Qashqai, my parents just got their second, wouldn’t say it’s inferior to a Primera by any margin.
I’m not into SUVs and have a large saloon but I might change my mind at some point, quite partial to a Cayenne, FFRR or similar, would be a bit more useful.
I think there is a tendency to label buyers vain and stupid, they really aren’t, they do a good job as do it all personal transport and have overtaken the saloon as they do the job better for more people.
Partly fashions change but a Qashqai is a much more useful vehicle than a saloon or hatch by and large, less so an estate but they do seem to end up with more space. Would nt say a Qashqai is fashionable
Wouldnt hold the Primera up as a beacon of quality over Qashqai, my parents just got their second, wouldn’t say it’s inferior to a Primera by any margin.
I’m not into SUVs and have a large saloon but I might change my mind at some point, quite partial to a Cayenne, FFRR or similar, would be a bit more useful.
I think there is a tendency to label buyers vain and stupid, they really aren’t, they do a good job as do it all personal transport and have overtaken the saloon as they do the job better for more people.
This is going to sound simplistic, but bare with me.
I blame the Range Rover Evoque and the Nissan Quasqai.
The Evoque became the darling of the Middle class mums because of its good looks, high practicality and ease of use, this spread downwards into the Aspirational Working class, who saw the middle class turn up at school and wanted a slice of that (and also being Aspirational were chasing the lifestyle signallers). Meanwhile the Quasqai was cheaper, less complicated but still big, felt safe and had a small and economical engine. Coupled with the Nissan brand espousing reliability it was a safer alternative for the less financially heeled and so it began to oust the Nissan Micra and such like that the lower income class had clung to.
Fast forward ten or so years, and people now view an SUV as almost a must have. To pick an estate or saloon car is to pick something less tall, which means being towered over by all the tall SUV that pervade our roads, and somehow choose almost a "lesser" option. There's no commanding driving position, no large expanse of bonnet with which to crowd the rear view mirror of the person in front, and well, what will the neighbours think if you can't afford an SUV?
Naturally, as buying patterns changed, manufacturers who were already on thin ice because of diminishing profit margins, lower service revenue from dealer networks and more competitors, sought to meet the new market needs, and lurched to the SUV market, releasing only token or market specific (sports cars etc) cars as the new normal took hold.
And here we are. Those of us who despise the SUV and don't want one can't buy much else unless we buy 12 year old cars, or resign to the situation and step into the segment with gritted teeth, and those who love them just reaffirm to the manufacturers that they got it right.
I blame the Range Rover Evoque and the Nissan Quasqai.
The Evoque became the darling of the Middle class mums because of its good looks, high practicality and ease of use, this spread downwards into the Aspirational Working class, who saw the middle class turn up at school and wanted a slice of that (and also being Aspirational were chasing the lifestyle signallers). Meanwhile the Quasqai was cheaper, less complicated but still big, felt safe and had a small and economical engine. Coupled with the Nissan brand espousing reliability it was a safer alternative for the less financially heeled and so it began to oust the Nissan Micra and such like that the lower income class had clung to.
Fast forward ten or so years, and people now view an SUV as almost a must have. To pick an estate or saloon car is to pick something less tall, which means being towered over by all the tall SUV that pervade our roads, and somehow choose almost a "lesser" option. There's no commanding driving position, no large expanse of bonnet with which to crowd the rear view mirror of the person in front, and well, what will the neighbours think if you can't afford an SUV?
Naturally, as buying patterns changed, manufacturers who were already on thin ice because of diminishing profit margins, lower service revenue from dealer networks and more competitors, sought to meet the new market needs, and lurched to the SUV market, releasing only token or market specific (sports cars etc) cars as the new normal took hold.
And here we are. Those of us who despise the SUV and don't want one can't buy much else unless we buy 12 year old cars, or resign to the situation and step into the segment with gritted teeth, and those who love them just reaffirm to the manufacturers that they got it right.
Edited by Vsix and Vtec on Wednesday 8th October 19:55
Your question is so detailed and erudite that to an extent, it answers itself. As you posed it, though, Range Rovers, Jeep Cherokees, Land Cruisers , even the Isuzu Trooper ,were perceived as posh and aspirational. I had the use of a Land Cruiser, but the posh bloke in the pub had a full fat Range Rover, and was perceived as a toff. (To an extent, James was) The Cherokee was short on rear passenger space. Then Nissan had the inspiration to build a car with a Focus size footprint, that looked vaguely like the above four to Joe Public , but cost much less. It was in the top ten -sellers despite X Trail being better - for a while. In other words, a triumph of marketing when more useful Scenics etc had a ‘ car if you have too many kids image.’ The Nissan looked the part, so that traditional family cars eg Passat/ Avensis became associated with a mini cab image despite their better driving dynamics. After a few years of reflection, and no doubt, focus groups, makers decided that they would ‘ Jack up’ most of the small hatchbacks, including, for example, the Golf into a T Roc and thus be able to jack up prices. The much loved Fiesta became a Puma, etc… you can add your own examples.
Isn’t part of it the rise of PCP deals?
Why drive a ford or Vauxhall when for a little more you can have a bmw or Audi?
Granted you’ll likely be in a poverty spec model but it’s the badge that might impress over a ford etc.
The SUV rise hasn’t helped but many of the crossover vehicles aren’t any more spacious over an estate car.
Why drive a ford or Vauxhall when for a little more you can have a bmw or Audi?
Granted you’ll likely be in a poverty spec model but it’s the badge that might impress over a ford etc.
The SUV rise hasn’t helped but many of the crossover vehicles aren’t any more spacious over an estate car.
Vsix and Vtec said:
This is going to sound simplistic, but bare with me.
I blame the Range Rover Evoque and the Nissan Quasqai.
The Evoque became the darling of the Middle class mums because of its good looks, high practicality and ease of use, this spread downwards into the Aspirational Working class, who saw the middle class turn up at school and wanted a slice of that (and also being Aspirational were chasing the lifestyle signallers). Meanwhile the Quasqai was cheaper, less complicated but still big, felt safe and had a small and economical engine. Coupled with the Nissan brand espousing reliability it was a safer alternative for the less financially heeled and so it began to oust the Nissan Micra and such like that the lower income class had clung to.
Fast forward ten or so years, and people now view an SUV as almost a must have. To pick an estate or saloon car is to pick something less tall, which means being towered over by all the tall SUV that pervade our roads, and somehow choose almost a "lesser" option. There's no commanding driving position, no large expanse of bonnet with which to crowd the rear view mirror of the person in front, and well, what will the neighbours think if you can't afford an SUV?
Naturally, as buying patterns changed, manufacturers who were already on thin ice because of diminishing profit margins, lower service revenue from dealer networks and more competitors, sought to meet the new market needs, and lurched to the SUV market, releasing only token or market specific (sports cars etc) cars as the new normal took hold.
And here we are. Those of us who despise the SUV and don't want one can't buy much else unless we buy 12 year old cars, or resign to the situation and step into the segment with gritted teeth, and those who love them just reaffirm to the manufacturers that they got it right.
The question is why do you despise the SUV (and also it seems their owners)?I blame the Range Rover Evoque and the Nissan Quasqai.
The Evoque became the darling of the Middle class mums because of its good looks, high practicality and ease of use, this spread downwards into the Aspirational Working class, who saw the middle class turn up at school and wanted a slice of that (and also being Aspirational were chasing the lifestyle signallers). Meanwhile the Quasqai was cheaper, less complicated but still big, felt safe and had a small and economical engine. Coupled with the Nissan brand espousing reliability it was a safer alternative for the less financially heeled and so it began to oust the Nissan Micra and such like that the lower income class had clung to.
Fast forward ten or so years, and people now view an SUV as almost a must have. To pick an estate or saloon car is to pick something less tall, which means being towered over by all the tall SUV that pervade our roads, and somehow choose almost a "lesser" option. There's no commanding driving position, no large expanse of bonnet with which to crowd the rear view mirror of the person in front, and well, what will the neighbours think if you can't afford an SUV?
Naturally, as buying patterns changed, manufacturers who were already on thin ice because of diminishing profit margins, lower service revenue from dealer networks and more competitors, sought to meet the new market needs, and lurched to the SUV market, releasing only token or market specific (sports cars etc) cars as the new normal took hold.
And here we are. Those of us who despise the SUV and don't want one can't buy much else unless we buy 12 year old cars, or resign to the situation and step into the segment with gritted teeth, and those who love them just reaffirm to the manufacturers that they got it right.
Edited by Vsix and Vtec on Wednesday 8th October 19:55
You seem incredibly chippy about them. Not all SUV drivers are trying to impress, maybe they just prefer a car with better visibility, one that is easier to get into and easier to buckle children up without bending over. Who cares about handling ability for a car that will rarely venture above 60mph, the benefits of an SUV far outweigh the negatives for many people. Which is why they are so popular.
Best tools for the job.
Padron said:
The question is why do you despise the SUV (and also it seems their owners)?
You seem incredibly chippy about them. Not all SUV drivers are trying to impress, maybe they just prefer a car with better visibility, one that is easier to get into and easier to buckle children up without bending over. Who cares about handling ability for a car that will rarely venture above 60mph, the benefits of an SUV far outweigh the negatives for many people. Which is why they are so popular.
Best tools for the job.
I don't really get this perspective. I have two kids (6 and 9) and my dad-mobile is a Jaguar saloon - it's easier to get them in an out of than an Audi Q7 that I occasionally drive. I also find it easier to get into myself as I'm dropping down into it rather than stepping up into it.You seem incredibly chippy about them. Not all SUV drivers are trying to impress, maybe they just prefer a car with better visibility, one that is easier to get into and easier to buckle children up without bending over. Who cares about handling ability for a car that will rarely venture above 60mph, the benefits of an SUV far outweigh the negatives for many people. Which is why they are so popular.
Best tools for the job.
Perhaps SUVs make more sense for smaller people from a visibility perspective ( I'm 6'2" so can't really comment on that
)? My wife (who is 5'4"ish) is quite keen on them but I largely put that down to her being a yank and a total philistine when it comes to cars! In favour of a normal car is physics...
Edited by LennyM1984 on Wednesday 8th October 20:40
king women mostly and them insisting on an suv when far better alternatives exist, pandering to their whims then having them whine that tyres are expensive or parking spaces are too small.J4CKO said:
Because saloons are a bit useless by and large for people s lifestyles.
Partly fashions change but a Qashqai is a much more useful vehicle than a saloon or hatch by and large, less so an estate but they do seem to end up with more space. Would nt say a Qashqai is fashionable
Wouldnt hold the Primera up as a beacon of quality over Qashqai, my parents just got their second, wouldn t say it s inferior to a Primera by any margin.
I m not into SUVs and have a large saloon but I might change my mind at some point, quite partial to a Cayenne, FFRR or similar, would be a bit more useful.
I think there is a tendency to label buyers vain and stupid, they really aren t, they do a good job as do it all personal transport and have overtaken the saloon as they do the job better for more people.
I think there's a difference between something like an FFRR/Cayenne/Touareg/X5 etc and a Qashqai (the former have a purpose/appeal), I'm just not convinced that the move to crossovers was progress.Partly fashions change but a Qashqai is a much more useful vehicle than a saloon or hatch by and large, less so an estate but they do seem to end up with more space. Would nt say a Qashqai is fashionable
Wouldnt hold the Primera up as a beacon of quality over Qashqai, my parents just got their second, wouldn t say it s inferior to a Primera by any margin.
I m not into SUVs and have a large saloon but I might change my mind at some point, quite partial to a Cayenne, FFRR or similar, would be a bit more useful.
I think there is a tendency to label buyers vain and stupid, they really aren t, they do a good job as do it all personal transport and have overtaken the saloon as they do the job better for more people.
My wife had a Mazda CX5 and it was quite nice in fairness but less economical than my mk7 Golf, didn't drive quite as well and was a lot heavier on tyres/brakes (due to the extra weight I expect) without really offering any more space than the Golf. I agree that some cars (Mazda 3/Civic) are quite low to get into but I didn't really notice any difference in terms of driving position going in between the Golf and the CX5 and I wouldn't have said that the CX5 had better visibility.
uktrailmonster said:
Why are we talking as if new saloons and estates don t exist? You can still buy a new Passat or whatever. There are just loads of other choices now.
Passat is estate only now and aside from the Peugeot 508 and Skoda Octavia, which are available as a hatchback or an estate, that's about it.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff