Government insulation scheme causes issues on vast scale

[JagLover]

NAO says that 98% of homes fitted with external wall insulation under a government scheme have issues as a result. The rate for internal insulation is better, but still nearly a third of homes.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3w965gz8zgo

[borcy]

Bodgers do seem to love these gov schemes .

[LordLoveLength]

No surprise there. I had some of those chancers at the door trying to get me to sign for cavity wall insulation.
I pointed out that the house didn’t have a cavity to insulate, apparently that didn’t matter as they could insulate between the bricks somehow and besides it was a government scheme so wouldn’t cost me anything.

I declined but I’m sure some neighbours signed up. Paperwork probably went in, company paid and then disappeared

[scenario8]

I can well imagine unscrupulous operations making hay with millions upon millions of poorly audited government money. Retro fitting internal and external wall insulation is a relatively complex and controversial practice but what, specifically, was an agent suggesting could be done with retro fitted cavity wall insulation at an address without cavity walls?

Was that more a case of a numpty sales person pushing something very hard they simply didn’t have much of an understanding about that was eventually going to get found out? Or were they really going to attempt to do “something”?

Just sounds rather odd.

[LordLoveLength]

I suspect a salesman employed as a door knocker on commission. He’s not going to care about anything other than signing people up.

[scenario8]

Thought that was the most likely situation.

Many thanks.

[Lotobear]

JagLover said:

NAO says that 98% of homes fitted with external wall insulation under a government scheme have issues as a result. The rate for internal insulation is better, but still nearly a third of homes.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3w965gz8zgo

I find that a very surprising stat. External insulation, as a system/principle, tends to be far more reliable than cavity fill or even internally applied insulation so for it to be going wrong so badly and so widely there must be some fundamental issues at play with the way it is being installed.

[John D.]

Lotobear said:

JagLover said:

NAO says that 98% of homes fitted with external wall insulation under a government scheme have issues as a result. The rate for internal insulation is better, but still nearly a third of homes.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3w965gz8zgo

I find that a very surprising stat. External insulation, as a system/principle, tends to be far more reliable than cavity fill or even internally applied insulation so for it to be going wrong so badly and so widely there must be some fundamental issues at play with the way it is being installed.

It is cavity insulation that has been installed. I believe JagLover means insulation to external walls, not external insulation.

[blueg33]

A cavity wall has a cavity for a reason. Fill the cavity up and you are asking for trouble unless the house was designed to have an insulated cavity,

Fundamentally you get moisture trapped that should have bee free to move down the outer leaf, you get airflow blocked, but that is what dries out the moisture and you get thermal bridging bringing cold spots to the inside wall.

Modern houses built with cavity insulation are designed accordingly, most cavity construction houses are not designed for the cavity to be filled.

[JagLover]

John D. said:

It is cavity insulation that has been installed. I believe JagLover means insulation to external walls, not external insulation.

I was using wording from BBC quoting NAO. I think they mean external insulation?.

[Lotobear]

John D. said:

Lotobear said:

JagLover said:

NAO says that 98% of homes fitted with external wall insulation under a government scheme have issues as a result. The rate for internal insulation is better, but still nearly a third of homes.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3w965gz8zgo

I find that a very surprising stat. External insulation, as a system/principle, tends to be far more reliable than cavity fill or even internally applied insulation so for it to be going wrong so badly and so widely there must be some fundamental issues at play with the way it is being installed.

It is cavity insulation that has been installed. I believe JagLover means insulation to external walls, not external insulation.

..not how I read it, the article repeatedly uses the term 'external wall insulation', mind you the BBC often let a good story get in the way of the facts.

Just to inform the discussion:

External insulation - insulation fitted to the exterior face of the property then finished with render
Cavity fill insulation - beads or glass fibres blow into the actual cavity betwixt inner and outer leafs
Internal insulation - thermal plasterboard laminate applied to the internal face of the walls inside the property

Edited by Lotobear on Tuesday 14th October 11:22

[JagLover]

blueg33 said:

A cavity wall has a cavity for a reason. Fill the cavity up and you are asking for trouble unless the house was designed to have an insulated cavity,

Fundamentally you get moisture trapped that should have bee free to move down the outer leaf, you get airflow blocked, but that is what dries out the moisture and you get thermal bridging bringing cold spots to the inside wall.

Modern houses built with cavity insulation are designed accordingly, most cavity construction houses are not designed for the cavity to be filled.

There was a chap in the Telegraph who used to complain about this 15 years or so ago. So it has been known.

[blueg33]

JagLover said:

blueg33 said:

A cavity wall has a cavity for a reason. Fill the cavity up and you are asking for trouble unless the house was designed to have an insulated cavity,

Fundamentally you get moisture trapped that should have bee free to move down the outer leaf, you get airflow blocked, but that is what dries out the moisture and you get thermal bridging bringing cold spots to the inside wall.

Modern houses built with cavity insulation are designed accordingly, most cavity construction houses are not designed for the cavity to be filled.

There was a chap in the Telegraph who used to complain about this 15 years or so ago. So it has been known.

Indeed - anyone who knows how cavities work knows this.

[John D.]

Yep. It's no wonder it's caused problems.

[Lotobear]

BBC article:

"External insulation involves insulation boards being fitted to the exterior brickwork of a house with render then applied to make it waterproof. It goes wrong when rainwater becomes trapped behind it."

[Triumph Man]

Lotobear said:

JagLover said:

NAO says that 98% of homes fitted with external wall insulation under a government scheme have issues as a result. The rate for internal insulation is better, but still nearly a third of homes.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3w965gz8zgo

I find that a very surprising stat. External insulation, as a system/principle, tends to be far more reliable than cavity fill or even internally applied insulation so for it to be going wrong so badly and so widely there must be some fundamental issues at play with the way it is being installed.

Yes - there can be numerous issues with cavity fill insulation systems, but (from professional experience) external insulation seems to be very reliable/effective. I'd agree with you it must surely be an installation problem.

[Triumph Man]

Lotobear said:

BBC article:

"External insulation involves insulation boards being fitted to the exterior brickwork of a house with render then applied to make it waterproof. It goes wrong when rainwater becomes trapped behind it."

In which case that's more of an installation/detailing problem.

[98elise]

blueg33 said:

A cavity wall has a cavity for a reason. Fill the cavity up and you are asking for trouble unless the house was designed to have an insulated cavity,

Fundamentally you get moisture trapped that should have bee free to move down the outer leaf, you get airflow blocked, but that is what dries out the moisture and you get thermal bridging bringing cold spots to the inside wall.

Modern houses built with cavity insulation are designed accordingly, most cavity construction houses are not designed for the cavity to be filled.

Which is why pushing the rental market to EPC C is a bad idea. It will introduce a whole host of other problems.

[blueg33]

98elise said:

blueg33 said:

A cavity wall has a cavity for a reason. Fill the cavity up and you are asking for trouble unless the house was designed to have an insulated cavity,

Fundamentally you get moisture trapped that should have bee free to move down the outer leaf, you get airflow blocked, but that is what dries out the moisture and you get thermal bridging bringing cold spots to the inside wall.

Modern houses built with cavity insulation are designed accordingly, most cavity construction houses are not designed for the cavity to be filled.

Which is why pushing the rental market to EPC C is a bad idea. It will introduce a whole host of other problems.

Yup

Its also why the volume of new affordable houses being built will fall. The HA I work for has diverted pretty much all of its funding to upgrading existing stick including energy efficiency and had reduced its new building programme to virtually nil.

It is possible to add insulation to exterior wall by adding a new facade with insulation built in. Cost circa £30k per property but eliminates the damp and thermal bridging risk

[z4RRSchris]

like most government schemes its rife with chancers abusing the tax payer.

was those solar panels before, think its heat pumps at the moment.