Johnson at the Covid enquiry
Discussion
Anyone following this?
I followed the revelations in The Times and have recently read Failures of State, the book published by The (Sunday?) Times on the way Johnson handled, or rather mishandled, the pandemic.
Johnson's always appeared duplicitous to me, and there was no doubt in my mind at the time, and especially since, that he, and the government, did not 'follow the science', which the book confirms. The appalling unpreparedness of the NHS, with it receiving no extra PPE, even sending some of our limited stock to China, despite pleas, and the pathetic Nightingale hospitals, was unbelievable.
He failed big time. The parties and ignoring the regulations were bad enough, but the number of extra deaths as a result of his mishandling are not going to be revealed by this enquiry. There were half a dozen Cobra meetings before he could be bothered to turn up to chair them, and even when he did bother, he did nothing, vacillating and going back on decisions. But this very expensive enquiry is pointless. Nothing of importance will be decided, rather like the Cobra meetings he chaired, and everything will go on as if the self-congratulating of those in control was deserved. He is taking up his normal position of appearing confused, smiling despite the deaths, and saying everything was unknown, this despite what happened in the far east, then east Europe and finally the EU. Italy was a lesson in how to mess up the response to a pandemic, and Johnson ignored the warnings. How was he supposed to know? By taking note of those who knew what was happening.
When there were clear examples on how to handle the pandemic with low loss of life and low cost to the country, Johnson followed his normal MO of not making any decisions until too late.
Read the book above. It's just a list of failures in the early stages of the pandemic.
I followed the revelations in The Times and have recently read Failures of State, the book published by The (Sunday?) Times on the way Johnson handled, or rather mishandled, the pandemic.
Johnson's always appeared duplicitous to me, and there was no doubt in my mind at the time, and especially since, that he, and the government, did not 'follow the science', which the book confirms. The appalling unpreparedness of the NHS, with it receiving no extra PPE, even sending some of our limited stock to China, despite pleas, and the pathetic Nightingale hospitals, was unbelievable.
He failed big time. The parties and ignoring the regulations were bad enough, but the number of extra deaths as a result of his mishandling are not going to be revealed by this enquiry. There were half a dozen Cobra meetings before he could be bothered to turn up to chair them, and even when he did bother, he did nothing, vacillating and going back on decisions. But this very expensive enquiry is pointless. Nothing of importance will be decided, rather like the Cobra meetings he chaired, and everything will go on as if the self-congratulating of those in control was deserved. He is taking up his normal position of appearing confused, smiling despite the deaths, and saying everything was unknown, this despite what happened in the far east, then east Europe and finally the EU. Italy was a lesson in how to mess up the response to a pandemic, and Johnson ignored the warnings. How was he supposed to know? By taking note of those who knew what was happening.
When there were clear examples on how to handle the pandemic with low loss of life and low cost to the country, Johnson followed his normal MO of not making any decisions until too late.
Read the book above. It's just a list of failures in the early stages of the pandemic.
Derek Smith said:
Anyone following this?
I followed the revelations in The Times and have recently read Failures of State, the book published by The (Sunday?) Times on the way Johnson handled, or rather mishandled, the pandemic.
Johnson's always appeared duplicitous to me, and there was no doubt in my mind at the time, and especially since, that he, and the government, did not 'follow the science', which the book confirms. The appalling unpreparedness of the NHS, with it receiving no extra PPE, even sending some of our limited stock to China, despite pleas, and the pathetic Nightingale hospitals, was unbelievable.
He failed big time. The parties and ignoring the regulations were bad enough, but the number of extra deaths as a result of his mishandling are not going to be revealed by this enquiry. There were half a dozen Cobra meetings before he could be bothered to turn up to chair them, and even when he did bother, he did nothing, vacillating and going back on decisions. But this very expensive enquiry is pointless. Nothing of importance will be decided, rather like the Cobra meetings he chaired, and everything will go on as if the self-congratulating of those in control was deserved. He is taking up his normal position of appearing confused, smiling despite the deaths, and saying everything was unknown, this despite what happened in the far east, then east Europe and finally the EU. Italy was a lesson in how to mess up the response to a pandemic, and Johnson ignored the warnings. How was he supposed to know? By taking note of those who knew what was happening.
When there were clear examples on how to handle the pandemic with low loss of life and low cost to the country, Johnson followed his normal MO of not making any decisions until too late.
Read the book above. It's just a list of failures in the early stages of the pandemic.
What else did you expect from Johnson? The man is totally unfit for any position of leadership and the ministers he had were likewise.I followed the revelations in The Times and have recently read Failures of State, the book published by The (Sunday?) Times on the way Johnson handled, or rather mishandled, the pandemic.
Johnson's always appeared duplicitous to me, and there was no doubt in my mind at the time, and especially since, that he, and the government, did not 'follow the science', which the book confirms. The appalling unpreparedness of the NHS, with it receiving no extra PPE, even sending some of our limited stock to China, despite pleas, and the pathetic Nightingale hospitals, was unbelievable.
He failed big time. The parties and ignoring the regulations were bad enough, but the number of extra deaths as a result of his mishandling are not going to be revealed by this enquiry. There were half a dozen Cobra meetings before he could be bothered to turn up to chair them, and even when he did bother, he did nothing, vacillating and going back on decisions. But this very expensive enquiry is pointless. Nothing of importance will be decided, rather like the Cobra meetings he chaired, and everything will go on as if the self-congratulating of those in control was deserved. He is taking up his normal position of appearing confused, smiling despite the deaths, and saying everything was unknown, this despite what happened in the far east, then east Europe and finally the EU. Italy was a lesson in how to mess up the response to a pandemic, and Johnson ignored the warnings. How was he supposed to know? By taking note of those who knew what was happening.
When there were clear examples on how to handle the pandemic with low loss of life and low cost to the country, Johnson followed his normal MO of not making any decisions until too late.
Read the book above. It's just a list of failures in the early stages of the pandemic.
The thing is that I don’t think any government covered themselves in glory and they all followed each other for fear of being wrong.
Yes, the children paid a high price as did many other sections of the country from those in charge making the wrong decisions at almost every point.
The PI is a complete waste of time and money as many of us said at the time it was announced with people trying to paint themselves as the ones who were right and throw others under the bus.
Regardless of which side of the debate one is on, it is clear that mistakes were made and the PI will be a whitewash.
As Sir Humphrey once said
Minister, two basic rules of government: Never look into anything you don't have to. And never set up an enquiry unless you know in advance what its findings will be.
scenario8 said:
DeejRC said:
The children paid a high price?
Oh knock it off for christs sake, the little f
kers are fine. If you, or they, think that was a high price wait till the reality of s
tty reality impacts!
Could you expand a little? What are you getting at? Oh knock it off for christs sake, the little f


greygoose said:
scenario8 said:
DeejRC said:
The children paid a high price?
Oh knock it off for christs sake, the little f
kers are fine. If you, or they, think that was a high price wait till the reality of s
tty reality impacts!
Could you expand a little? What are you getting at? Oh knock it off for christs sake, the little f


Or something else entirely.
Honestly, who knows?
scenario8 said:
greygoose said:
scenario8 said:
DeejRC said:
The children paid a high price?
Oh knock it off for christs sake, the little f
kers are fine. If you, or they, think that was a high price wait till the reality of s
tty reality impacts!
Could you expand a little? What are you getting at? Oh knock it off for christs sake, the little f


Or something else entirely.
Honestly, who knows?
I do indeed think (I maybe wrong) that deej is rather making the point that the *reality* of the pandemic is that this country spunked the best part of £400bn up the wall in a way which has utterly screwed the country’s finances for the foreseeable. And every child when they become an adult will be carrying the cost probably for their lifetime.
Kids are robust. Mine was 6 going into the pandemic. 5 years later and he is doing fine. The cohort that *did* get screwed were the exam takers over that period but that is a different story which should shame the teaching profession but a majority of them seem incapable of seeing that.
zetec said:
I think alot of today was about the children, think of the children. Should schools have closed? Well the Government would've been damned if they did or damned if they didn't.
They should never have been closed, and certainly for the duration that they were. There was plenty of evidence to show that children were not vulnerable and vectors of infection.It did put quite a lot of strain on parents who were still working: myself and my ex were WFH pretty much 10 hours a day. For a kid with no siblings it was a pretty miserable existence.
The teachers unions fought tooth and nail over the timing of return and leveraged as much media pressure as they could to resist the return.
But damned if they do or don’t? Parents wanted them back, teachers not so much. One is there to provide a service and an education and didn’t want to. Appalling behaviour.
But kids survive. Mine developed a number of verbal and social tics during the pandemic and it probably exacerbated some underlying ADHD behaviour but it thrashed itself out and he’s in the top 5% re performance a few years later.
I am somewhat more bemused as to the world he drops into in 7 or so years time as an adult.
My view whilst listening to some of it this morning is that people have very short memories.
Johnson certainly didn’t have the courage of his convictions, but as far as I know no mainstream politician of any party suggested that closing the schools might be a bad idea. In fact every opposition politician was demanding that schools lockdown for longer.
Johnson certainly didn’t have the courage of his convictions, but as far as I know no mainstream politician of any party suggested that closing the schools might be a bad idea. In fact every opposition politician was demanding that schools lockdown for longer.
Ridgemont said:
They should never have been closed, and certainly for the duration that they were. There was plenty of evidence to show that children were not vulnerable and vectors of infection.
But it's not just children that go to school is it. What about teachers, cleaners, cooks etc etc. Schools these days seem to have more non-teaching staff than teaching staff. The children still have to get to school, on buses or trains. Yes it put alot of strain on parents, the pandemic and lockdowns put alot of strain on everyone.
Foss62 said:
My view whilst listening to some of it this morning is that people have very short memories.
Johnson certainly didn t have the courage of his convictions, but as far as I know no mainstream politician of any party suggested that closing the schools might be a bad idea. In fact every opposition politician was demanding that schools lockdown for longer.
Yep. Johnson's approach wasn't beyond justifiable criticism, but few had any better ideas.Johnson certainly didn t have the courage of his convictions, but as far as I know no mainstream politician of any party suggested that closing the schools might be a bad idea. In fact every opposition politician was demanding that schools lockdown for longer.
There certainly wasn't one science.
ExBoringVolvoDriver said:
What else did you expect from Johnson? The man is totally unfit for any position of leadership and the ministers he had were likewise.
The thing is that I don t think any government covered themselves in glory and they all followed each other for fear of being wrong.
Yes, the children paid a high price as did many other sections of the country from those in charge making the wrong decisions at almost every point.
The PI is a complete waste of time and money as many of us said at the time it was announced with people trying to paint themselves as the ones who were right and throw others under the bus.
Regardless of which side of the debate one is on, it is clear that mistakes were made and the PI will be a whitewash.
As Sir Humphrey once said
Minister, two basic rules of government: Never look into anything you don't have to. And never set up an enquiry unless you know in advance what its findings will be.
I used to have to deal with spontaneous incidents and I accept - and wish those above me tried it - that mistakes will be made. Most such incidents came with little information so much was guesswork. I had great staff - a 2 i/c who'd been in the position for at least 7 years. Brilliant bloke. The thing is that I don t think any government covered themselves in glory and they all followed each other for fear of being wrong.
Yes, the children paid a high price as did many other sections of the country from those in charge making the wrong decisions at almost every point.
The PI is a complete waste of time and money as many of us said at the time it was announced with people trying to paint themselves as the ones who were right and throw others under the bus.
Regardless of which side of the debate one is on, it is clear that mistakes were made and the PI will be a whitewash.
As Sir Humphrey once said
Minister, two basic rules of government: Never look into anything you don't have to. And never set up an enquiry unless you know in advance what its findings will be.
But with the pandemic, there was plenty of warning. There was time to make sufficient plans to mitigate the possible outcomes. Other countries, and closer to point zero, managed it so much better. Why? We saw what was happening in Italy; it was a warning of a 'clear and present danger', but Johnson ignored it. Hancock was a handicap. I can see why having him in charge of the NHS was never going to work, but we could ask who put him there. The 100,000 tests target, which took resources from other, and vital, projects was nothing more than a vanity project. He didn't even get track and trace to work.
The government, and us, needed a firm hand at the wheel, and it's not so much that all we had was a dithering Johnson, we didn't even have him most of the time. He ran from it. Stuck his head in the sand, despite ample evidence of what direction we needed to go.
And the downright lies! 'Everyone who needs ICU treatment will get it' whilst deciding on a triage which meant everyone over 80 would not be treated in ICU, even if there were empty beds. Which there weren't for the most part. Track and trace is working. Yeah, right. Working as many people expected: not at all. Borders open and those coming in not tested. Which leads me onto insufficient tests.
The response plan was a good one. All that was needed was sufficient equipment, especially protection for staff. My daughter was considering returning to nursing but ex-colleagues she called said that staff had no PPE and had to make their own. They were, in effect, poisoning their families, and with two toddlers, she said that weren't going to happen. One trust published the names of staff that had gone sick during the crisis. Doctors who complained were threatened. We could bang a tin pot of course, but staff were told not to ask for PPE from the public.
D'you remember the video of the Chinese building hospitals in days and equipping them? Something to look at during lockdown. So we invested in Nightingale hospitals when everyone was well aware the ICUs we had were struggling with staff, and that's not to mention they didn't have enough incubators either.
Sorry to go on, but it was just so inept.
The waste of resources was difficult to comprehend. If Johnson had made a decision, and stuck with it, in early Feb, what might have been. If he'd followed the science. If he hadn't been PM. I'm no supporter of May, but there's little doubt she'd have made a better job of it, maybe even chairing the Cobra meetings. If, if, if.
We are something like sixth in the table for deaths per million population. Fair enough, some countries denied any, but our performance was just about as bad as could be.
He's been concentrating on the outcome for children, asking who knew. He should have. Others had plans. In any case, it was deflection. Why did so many die? Why did it cost so much? Why did we not follow the plan in the years before, by having stockpiles of equipment? Why didn't we accept offers of incubators? Why didn't the government do its job?
And we still don't know all that went wrong. But what we do know is enough to make one despair. And he sat there, smiling, with all those unnecessary deaths hanging around his neck.
zetec said:
Ridgemont said:
They should never have been closed, and certainly for the duration that they were. There was plenty of evidence to show that children were not vulnerable and vectors of infection.
But it's not just children that go to school is it. What about teachers, cleaners, cooks etc etc. Schools these days seem to have more non-teaching staff than teaching staff. The children still have to get to school, on buses or trains. Yes it put alot of strain on parents, the pandemic and lockdowns put alot of strain on everyone.
Not the biggest mistake of the century?
zetec said:
Ridgemont said:
They should never have been closed, and certainly for the duration that they were. There was plenty of evidence to show that children were not vulnerable and vectors of infection.
But it's not just children that go to school is it. What about teachers, cleaners, cooks etc etc. Take it from me when Norovirus hits a school it’s a nightmare: all adults will pick it up as the filthy little f


That vector did not happen with the pandemic. Sure teachers came down with it but because of the peculiarities of the virus, kids were largely unaffected (possibly because it impacted those with co-morbidity especially) and when they transmitted the pass on was extremely minor in terms of severity. This was known within a few months of the outbreak but was ignored. Because of pressure from the unions and the opposition and because the government was in a no win scenario as a result.
Anyway we’re probably relitigating gazillions of pages from the Covid threads.
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