No motor vehicles except for access camera enforcement

[lionel_hatred]

I live on a small estate between a couple of relatively major routes into the city centre and the entrance road to the estate which connects the two major routes has had a no through road/except for access sign for a fair while. It’s fairly obvious that it’s pretty toothless because people do use it to switch between the two other roads when traffic is bad on their commute in either direction (which, in all honesty, I couldn’t care less about, it’s what roads are for and it’s hardly jammed with traffic!).

The other day I had a letter from the council telling me they’re doing a consultation before setting up enforcement cameras to stop people contravening the sign, a question for the hive mind: does anyone know how they actually enforce it with cameras?

My instinct says it’ll be a potential nightmare for residents when people visiting, delivering, dropping off etc. start getting caught by false positives from the cameras. There’s a small special needs school as well so drop offs are a regular feature. Just feels like a money making scheme rather than something genuinely in the interest of residents or tax payers.

Anyone have any experience with automated enforcement of these sorts of things and how they work?

[The Gauge]

Maybe anyone getting caught might say they were looking for a suitable parking space outside the address they were visiting but there wasn’t one so they had to drive on without stopping

[mac96]

As a camera cannot judge purpose of journey, presumably there would either have to be a list of permitted vehicles(residents) and all others would be ticketed, or cameras at both ends, ticketing vehicles which entered and exited to quickly. As you suggest, a nightmare for deliveries or visitors. And also for residents, if done on entry and exit times rather than permitted vehicles.
I'll be watching this thread to see if anyone has any actual experience, it's interesting.
If it ends up like like controlled parking zones most of the fines will be levied on the residents making errors, in spite of the pretence at the consultation stage that it was all intended to help them.

Edited by mac96 on Thursday 23 October 10:57

[lionel_hatred]

I hope that's not the answer, again just feels like hassle to solve a bit of a non-problem. If every time someone picks me up or drops me off as a favour they get served a fine that they have to dispute I think the goodwill of my friends might start to run dry.

[gavgavgav]

Here is an example of how this can be done to you and what happens:
https://www.hounslow.gov.uk/transport-traffic/sout...

https://www.chiswickw4.com/default.asp?section=inf...

You have to be super organised otherwise the trades you need to have issues, carers, friends visiting all get pinged by the ANPR camera.

[megaphone]

gavgavgav said:

Here is an example of how this can be done to you and what happens:
https://www.hounslow.gov.uk/transport-traffic/sout...

https://www.chiswickw4.com/default.asp?section=inf...

You have to be super organised otherwise the trades you need to have issues, carers, friends visiting all get pinged by the ANPR camera.

I got caught by this a few years back, whilst visiting a client, I refuse to work in the area now, not worth the aggro.

[mac96]

gavgavgav said:

Here is an example of how this can be done to you and what happens:
https://www.hounslow.gov.uk/transport-traffic/sout...

https://www.chiswickw4.com/default.asp?section=inf...

You have to be super organised otherwise the trades you need to have issues, carers, friends visiting all get pinged by the ANPR camera.

So it is not enforcing an 'except for access' rule but turning it into a permit for entry zone. Apart from the general issue, making it impossible for deliveries taxis etc to get to properties surely disproportionately affects the disabled. That would not be legal?
And also encourages the residents to use a car instead of getting deliveries, as that can be registered to the zone. Doesn't make sense.

[GiantEnemyCrab]

Its good that those in the council are really working to make our lives better with these (definitely not free) cameras, infrastructure and boggling processes to.... have someone visit your house.

[andyalan10]

Surely you put a camera at each end of the road. If a vehicle averages, say 20mph, between each camera, then it wasn't accessing a property on the street. Even a taxi drop off would add enough time to not trigger an offence. Couriers who throw parcels over a fence from a moving van might get caught. What's not to like?

[lionel_hatred]

gavgavgav said:

Here is an example of how this can be done to you and what happens:
https://www.hounslow.gov.uk/transport-traffic/sout...

https://www.chiswickw4.com/default.asp?section=inf...

You have to be super organised otherwise the trades you need to have issues, carers, friends visiting all get pinged by the ANPR camera.

Yeah absolutely f**k this, this is not what I want to happen! That said I do think that's slightly different in that the first one at least seems to be combined with parking restrictions which we don't have nor need, most people have off-street parking here so it's not much of an issue.

If we end up in the situation like the later with registering vehicles which are allowed to enter the zone I'll be raging.

[lionel_hatred]

andyalan10 said:

Surely you put a camera at each end of the road. If a vehicle averages, say 20mph, between each camera, then it wasn't accessing a property on the street. Even a taxi drop off would add enough time to not trigger an offence. Couriers who throw parcels over a fence from a moving van might get caught. What's not to like?

I mean this is probably workable but my main beef is that 1) I don't trust them to get this part right and 2) I don't think it's actually a problem which needs solving, it feels more like a few nimbys who bought houses on a through road and don't like it being used and a council on the lookout for a few extra pennies (which I don't begrudge, just not this method!).

[RotorRambler]

Since they’re still at consultation stage, it’s worth:
1. Responding formally, raising your points about:
• Legitimate visitor/delivery access
• The school’s drop-off traffic
• Need for a clear exemption and appeals process
2. Ask for details: specifically, how will “access” be verified, and what mechanisms will exist for residents and legitimate visitors.
3. Contact your local councillor — these consultations often shift if residents make thoughtful, evidence-based objections.

[Inbox]

You could just object and tell them to stop wasting taxpayers money which would be better spent making the through road a cul-de-sac.

I think they are sniffing a money making opportunity so the consultation is really sham excuse, they just want the money and couldn't less how much trouble they cause everyone else.

[Yellow Lizud]

Surely the obvious answer is to just block one of the entrances/exits, that way it's no longer a through route. Yes, some of the residents and visitors may be slightly inconvenienced by having to use the only available access. But it won't be anywhere near as inconvenient (or expensive) as cameras, permits, ANPR or other assorted technologies which, as proved by various parking systems, don't work properly.

This idea sounds to me like someone who doesn't like odd vehicles in 'their' estate but hasn't actually thought it through.
As they say, be careful what you wish for!

[mac96]

Yellow Lizud said:

Surely the obvious answer is to just block one of the entrances/exits, that way it's no longer a through route. Yes, some of the residents and visitors may be slightly inconvenienced by having to use the only available access. But it won't be anywhere near as inconvenient (or expensive) as cameras, permits, ANPR or other assorted technologies which, as proved by various parking systems, don't work properly.

This idea sounds to me like someone who doesn't like odd vehicles in 'their' estate but hasn't actually thought it through.
As they say, be careful what you wish for!

A physical block also has the advantage of blocking all vehicles including illegal ones with no identifiable owner or driver. Camera enforcement only affects the law abiding. Of course, it solves the problem but provides no income.

[lionel_hatred]

Speaking selfishly (which as you say has probably led us to this point anyway) it'd be a real shame to block off either end, as someone who lives in the middle it can shave 5 or 10 minutes off a journey to go one way or the other depending on where I'm going and what time.

As it happens I did respond to the email address supplied on the consultation, unfortunately I did it when I came in from the pub and had 4 or 5 pints worth of mild annoyance in me so it probably wasn't as constructive and professional as it could have been.

[sospan]

A few years ago there were traffic issues on a private road near us. There were traffic lights at a junction and people turned off through the signposted private road to miss them. This was a big issue at school drop off/ puckup times. The residents got together and blocked off one end of the road. Problem solved in a simple, cost effective way. It was a short road anyway, only about 300m. I knew one resident and he described the road maintenance costs.
The area is now even more of a rat run due to a bigger extra school being built requiring access. Also a couple of hundred hoyses being added to the area. This last one just resulted in £600k being spent to alter access to the site from a main road due to congestion. This road is a major choke point anyway. It is clear that full effects of the extra school traffic and houses was underestimated or ignored despite local objections pointing out the problems. Access to the housing could easily have been designed better from inception rather than continued problems with a limited result "improvement" at £600k.
The OP's situation would benefit from a cul de sac blocking through traffic at low cost, providing residents accept some possible minor rerouting for them.

Edited by sospan on Thursday 23 October 13:35

[speedking31]

Would it not be easy enough to have a camera at each end and ignore if a vehicle exits by the same entry point as where it entered, i.e. no through traffic. Then only residents would have to be registered to give 'permission' to travel freely.

Trades would still have to exit by their entry point, which isn't always convenient to get to the next customer, or to collect a part, but would minimise the amount of non-automated admin.

[Yellow Lizud]

lionel_hatred said:

Speaking selfishly (which as you say has probably led us to this point anyway) it'd be a real shame to block off either end, as someone who lives in the middle it can shave 5 or 10 minutes off a journey to go one way or the other depending on where I'm going and what time.

If you don't want them to close one of the access points then I don't think you're in a position to complain if they want to throw technology at it.

I can assure you it'll take more than 5 or 10 minutes of your time to sort out the mess that any automated system will cause.

How many houses are there between the 2 access points?
What are the views of those residents?

[gavgavgav]

lionel_hatred said:

gavgavgav said:

Here is an example of how this can be done to you and what happens:
https://www.hounslow.gov.uk/transport-traffic/sout...

https://www.chiswickw4.com/default.asp?section=inf...

You have to be super organised otherwise the trades you need to have issues, carers, friends visiting all get pinged by the ANPR camera.

Yeah absolutely f**k this, this is not what I want to happen! That said I do think that's slightly different in that the first one at least seems to be combined with parking restrictions which we don't have nor need, most people have off-street parking here so it's not much of an issue.

If we end up in the situation like the later with registering vehicles which are allowed to enter the zone I'll be raging.

Yes, it's a nightmare they have forced on the area, I believe the local sentiment was not in support. In this case they limited roads from the south, east and west leaving just a road from the north without the restriction. In this case the roads are very (very! if you know the A4 you know what I mean) unreliable, so its not a practical method. In your case if they restrict entry form one end, and the unrestricted road is congested or blocked, then you are snookered. They don't think of this as a priority when they design the solutions. Also, if you are zone resident the process to register your new car is not immediate as well, again 'they' don't care.