Making a complain against a judge?
Discussion
Looking for some advice and maybe having a little vent…
I am involved in a MCOL case as a member of the board for a not-for-profit ltd company. A claim was made against the company because a shareholder claimed us not doing something resulted in a them incurring costs and suffering stress and worry.
No LBA was sent (I know not strictly a requirement) and the board refuted every point of the MCOL with clear and concise evidence that had the company done what was asked it would be acting both against the interests of the shareholders and in breach of covenants it must uphold.
Company was sent a letter to attend a resolution hearing at CC. Judge spent an hour discussing ways to resolve the problem and made four recommendations to the claimant and one for the company. The summary was, if the claimant complied with the covenants in place the company would do what was required of it. Company had already stated this as part of the original response to the MCOL so the hearing was largely a waste of time.
At no point did the company refuse to fulfil its obligation to the shareholder for any reason other than their breach of covenants and the case in front of the judge was a claim for damages, not a legal demand to compel the company to fulfil an obligation. The judge even stated to both parties the claim would not be upheld if pursued further and if the claimant was to get the company to complete its task they should consider the matter closed. Was this dispute resolution outside of the remit of the judge/court based on the case presented to them?
There was a follow-up hearing today where the judge was informed the company had followed their recommendation well within the requested time frame and that the claimant had only completed 2 of 4, one almost two months after they were recommended to. Judge then suggested both parties should go and and find a resolution, at which point our legal representation pointed out the only resolution was for the claimant to obey the covenants they are in breach of, which they had already been recommended to resolve but had not. They pushed for a final hearing on the original MCOL, which was the only time the MCOL was mentioned during this hearing.
The company now must fund a third day in court to try and get the MCOL thrown out. Bearing in mind the judge has already stated the claim would not stand up in court so why did this even get to a resolution hearing, let alone two of them? And why the hell is a final hearing even required when it should have been thrown out as soon as it was reviewed by the court if there is no legal basis for it?
Not only is the claimant wasting the court’s time and money but they judge themselves has done the same. Before the company incurs any more legal costs is there a route to complaining to the court or any sort of regulatory body that the judge has acted well outside the scope of the case as presented to them?
I am involved in a MCOL case as a member of the board for a not-for-profit ltd company. A claim was made against the company because a shareholder claimed us not doing something resulted in a them incurring costs and suffering stress and worry.
No LBA was sent (I know not strictly a requirement) and the board refuted every point of the MCOL with clear and concise evidence that had the company done what was asked it would be acting both against the interests of the shareholders and in breach of covenants it must uphold.
Company was sent a letter to attend a resolution hearing at CC. Judge spent an hour discussing ways to resolve the problem and made four recommendations to the claimant and one for the company. The summary was, if the claimant complied with the covenants in place the company would do what was required of it. Company had already stated this as part of the original response to the MCOL so the hearing was largely a waste of time.
At no point did the company refuse to fulfil its obligation to the shareholder for any reason other than their breach of covenants and the case in front of the judge was a claim for damages, not a legal demand to compel the company to fulfil an obligation. The judge even stated to both parties the claim would not be upheld if pursued further and if the claimant was to get the company to complete its task they should consider the matter closed. Was this dispute resolution outside of the remit of the judge/court based on the case presented to them?
There was a follow-up hearing today where the judge was informed the company had followed their recommendation well within the requested time frame and that the claimant had only completed 2 of 4, one almost two months after they were recommended to. Judge then suggested both parties should go and and find a resolution, at which point our legal representation pointed out the only resolution was for the claimant to obey the covenants they are in breach of, which they had already been recommended to resolve but had not. They pushed for a final hearing on the original MCOL, which was the only time the MCOL was mentioned during this hearing.
The company now must fund a third day in court to try and get the MCOL thrown out. Bearing in mind the judge has already stated the claim would not stand up in court so why did this even get to a resolution hearing, let alone two of them? And why the hell is a final hearing even required when it should have been thrown out as soon as it was reviewed by the court if there is no legal basis for it?
Not only is the claimant wasting the court’s time and money but they judge themselves has done the same. Before the company incurs any more legal costs is there a route to complaining to the court or any sort of regulatory body that the judge has acted well outside the scope of the case as presented to them?
Charitably the judge may be being lenient toward the individual as joe soap is generally at a disadvantage when challenging a company that can afford legal counsel, but that's what MCOL is for, it's much simpler than most court proceedings so joe soap has a chance of sorting a claim without a lawyer. It does sound like the judge may be being too lenient but IANAL, I doubt complaining about a judge is worth the effort until you get a verdict/judgement.
Robberto said:
Looking for some advice and maybe having a little vent
I am involved in a MCOL case as a member of the board for a not-for-profit ltd company. A claim was made against the company because a shareholder claimed us not doing something resulted in a them incurring costs and suffering stress and worry.
No LBA was sent (I know not strictly a requirement) and the board refuted every point of the MCOL with clear and concise evidence that had the company done what was asked it would be acting both against the interests of the shareholders and in breach of covenants it must uphold.
Company was sent a letter to attend a resolution hearing at CC. Judge spent an hour discussing ways to resolve the problem and made four recommendations to the claimant and one for the company. The summary was, if the claimant complied with the covenants in place the company would do what was required of it. Company had already stated this as part of the original response to the MCOL so the hearing was largely a waste of time.
At no point did the company refuse to fulfil its obligation to the shareholder for any reason other than their breach of covenants and the case in front of the judge was a claim for damages, not a legal demand to compel the company to fulfil an obligation. The judge even stated to both parties the claim would not be upheld if pursued further and if the claimant was to get the company to complete its task they should consider the matter closed. Was this dispute resolution outside of the remit of the judge/court based on the case presented to them?
There was a follow-up hearing today where the judge was informed the company had followed their recommendation well within the requested time frame and that the claimant had only completed 2 of 4, one almost two months after they were recommended to. Judge then suggested both parties should go and and find a resolution, at which point our legal representation pointed out the only resolution was for the claimant to obey the covenants they are in breach of, which they had already been recommended to resolve but had not. They pushed for a final hearing on the original MCOL, which was the only time the MCOL was mentioned during this hearing.
The company now must fund a third day in court to try and get the MCOL thrown out. Bearing in mind the judge has already stated the claim would not stand up in court so why did this even get to a resolution hearing, let alone two of them? And why the hell is a final hearing even required when it should have been thrown out as soon as it was reviewed by the court if there is no legal basis for it?
Not only is the claimant wasting the court s time and money but they judge themselves has done the same. Before the company incurs any more legal costs is there a route to complaining to the court or any sort of regulatory body that the judge has acted well outside the scope of the case as presented to them?
No. Judges are even exempt from parliamentary interference.I am involved in a MCOL case as a member of the board for a not-for-profit ltd company. A claim was made against the company because a shareholder claimed us not doing something resulted in a them incurring costs and suffering stress and worry.
No LBA was sent (I know not strictly a requirement) and the board refuted every point of the MCOL with clear and concise evidence that had the company done what was asked it would be acting both against the interests of the shareholders and in breach of covenants it must uphold.
Company was sent a letter to attend a resolution hearing at CC. Judge spent an hour discussing ways to resolve the problem and made four recommendations to the claimant and one for the company. The summary was, if the claimant complied with the covenants in place the company would do what was required of it. Company had already stated this as part of the original response to the MCOL so the hearing was largely a waste of time.
At no point did the company refuse to fulfil its obligation to the shareholder for any reason other than their breach of covenants and the case in front of the judge was a claim for damages, not a legal demand to compel the company to fulfil an obligation. The judge even stated to both parties the claim would not be upheld if pursued further and if the claimant was to get the company to complete its task they should consider the matter closed. Was this dispute resolution outside of the remit of the judge/court based on the case presented to them?
There was a follow-up hearing today where the judge was informed the company had followed their recommendation well within the requested time frame and that the claimant had only completed 2 of 4, one almost two months after they were recommended to. Judge then suggested both parties should go and and find a resolution, at which point our legal representation pointed out the only resolution was for the claimant to obey the covenants they are in breach of, which they had already been recommended to resolve but had not. They pushed for a final hearing on the original MCOL, which was the only time the MCOL was mentioned during this hearing.
The company now must fund a third day in court to try and get the MCOL thrown out. Bearing in mind the judge has already stated the claim would not stand up in court so why did this even get to a resolution hearing, let alone two of them? And why the hell is a final hearing even required when it should have been thrown out as soon as it was reviewed by the court if there is no legal basis for it?
Not only is the claimant wasting the court s time and money but they judge themselves has done the same. Before the company incurs any more legal costs is there a route to complaining to the court or any sort of regulatory body that the judge has acted well outside the scope of the case as presented to them?
I made a complaint about Nigel Meadows Senior Coroner(a Judge) at Manchester via the proper route and nothing could be done about the decsions he made. He was later removed from office on bases of is conduct.
The Rules on complaints about Judges. See here. https://www.complaints.judicialconduct.gov.uk/make...
Just stick it out. I have found that the County Court system is one where the Judges want the parties to reach agreement themselves. Judges really push for that.
Did the Judge make any Orders as to what both parties should comply with...if so, is the Claimant not in Breach of that Order? If so can you not ask for a default judgement for his failure to comply?
You may also find this usefull:
https://dwfgroup.com/en/news-and-insights/insights...
You may also find this usefull:
https://dwfgroup.com/en/news-and-insights/insights...
Edited by LimmerickLad on Thursday 23 October 22:29
I m not entirely sure of the merits of your case as I m finding the context, parties and timelines etc. misleading or I m not interpreting it correctly so I will stop away from commenting further on that.
To answer your question;
You can only complain about a judge if their professional conduct fell short - for example, swearing, belligerence etc You cannot complain if you don t like the Judges ruling or the way in which they managed the case etc. as in most cases, the Judges decision really is final.
You can APPEAL their decision on a point of law or on how the case has been managed. By the sounds of it, the Judge is still in dispute resolution mode so as there has been no ruling on the MCOL claim to date, then you would struggle to appeal at this point in play.
From experience with District Judges on the small claims track they’re very unlikely to strike-out a case unless it offers absolutely no prospect of success or is vexatious in nature - which by the sounds of it, you’re unlikely to get if it’s gone this far.
To answer your question;
You can only complain about a judge if their professional conduct fell short - for example, swearing, belligerence etc You cannot complain if you don t like the Judges ruling or the way in which they managed the case etc. as in most cases, the Judges decision really is final.
You can APPEAL their decision on a point of law or on how the case has been managed. By the sounds of it, the Judge is still in dispute resolution mode so as there has been no ruling on the MCOL claim to date, then you would struggle to appeal at this point in play.
From experience with District Judges on the small claims track they’re very unlikely to strike-out a case unless it offers absolutely no prospect of success or is vexatious in nature - which by the sounds of it, you’re unlikely to get if it’s gone this far.
Edited by ADJimbo on Thursday 23 October 23:59
LimmerickLad said:
Did the Judge make any Orders as to what both parties should comply with...if so, is the Claimant not in Breach of that Order? If so can you not ask for a default judgement for his failure to comply?
You may also find this usefull:
https://dwfgroup.com/en/news-and-insights/insights...
Thanks for reading and replying. No orders were made at any point. The judge only made their “recommendations” in the first hearing and was pretty explicit in their emphasis that they were only recommendations. Our legal eagle mentioned this after the first hearing and advised there would be little or no consequence if the claimant didn’t follow them, short of maybe annoying the judgeYou may also find this usefull:
https://dwfgroup.com/en/news-and-insights/insights...
Edited by LimmerickLad on Thursday 23 October 22:29
ADJimbo said:
I m not entirely sure of the merits of your case as I m finding the context, parties and timelines etc. misleading or I m not interpreting it correctly so I will stop away from commenting further on that.
To answer your question;
You can only complain about a judge if their professional conduct fell short - for example, swearing, belligerence etc You cannot complain if you don t like the Judges ruling or the way in which they managed the case etc. as in most cases, the Judges decision really is final.
You can APPEAL their decision on a point of law or on how the case has been managed. By the sounds of it, the Judge is still in dispute resolution mode so as there has been no ruling on the MCOL claim to date, then you would struggle to appeal at this point in play.
From experience with District Judges on the small claims track they re very unlikely to strike-out a case unless it offers absolutely no prospect of success or is vexatious in nature - which by the sounds of it, you re unlikely to get if it s gone this far.
Thanks for taking the time to reply. I have not intentionally misled in my OP, I just didn’t want to post anything identifiable.To answer your question;
You can only complain about a judge if their professional conduct fell short - for example, swearing, belligerence etc You cannot complain if you don t like the Judges ruling or the way in which they managed the case etc. as in most cases, the Judges decision really is final.
You can APPEAL their decision on a point of law or on how the case has been managed. By the sounds of it, the Judge is still in dispute resolution mode so as there has been no ruling on the MCOL claim to date, then you would struggle to appeal at this point in play.
From experience with District Judges on the small claims track they re very unlikely to strike-out a case unless it offers absolutely no prospect of success or is vexatious in nature - which by the sounds of it, you re unlikely to get if it s gone this far.
Edited by ADJimbo on Thursday 23 October 23:59
Their professional conduct is what I am questioning. At the first hearing they made clear the claim had no basis in law and the claimant should consider the matter closed once they had complied with the covenants they are in violation of and the company are able to sign off what they are required to.
What I am struggling to understand is how a case that has “no basis in law” ever saw the inside of a court room. The facts as presented to the court by both sides were clear: Claimant says that the company not doing what they are asked to caused costs and damages. Company refuted, stating that a) what they were asked to do was unlawful and b) that there was evidence to support that the actions of the company were not the cause of the claimant incurring costs and damages (apologies, appreciate this is new info not in the OP).
If the judge told the claimant in court that their claim had no basis in law why/how is it possible for the judge to drag both parties to court in the first place? The case as presented is very much vexatious on the part of the claimant and amounts to them trying to bully the company into signing off on something it is not able to.
I’m probably not explaining any of this properly/clearly enough to get useful advice from more knowledgeable people than I, but I am unable to square away how a judge can try a case that has not been presented by either party which has resulted in 2 wasted days in court at the company’s expense and still requires a third court visit to resolve the original MCOL!
Robberto said:
Thanks for taking the time to reply. I have not intentionally misled in my OP, I just didn t want to post anything identifiable.
Their professional conduct is what I am questioning. At the first hearing they made clear the claim had no basis in law and the claimant should consider the matter closed once they had complied with the covenants they are in violation of and the company are able to sign off what they are required to.
What I am struggling to understand is how a case that has no basis in law ever saw the inside of a court room. The facts as presented to the court by both sides were clear: Claimant says that the company not doing what they are asked to caused costs and damages. Company refuted, stating that a) what they were asked to do was unlawful and b) that there was evidence to support that the actions of the company were not the cause of the claimant incurring costs and damages (apologies, appreciate this is new info not in the OP).
If the judge told the claimant in court that their claim had no basis in law why/how is it possible for the judge to drag both parties to court in the first place? The case as presented is very much vexatious on the part of the claimant and amounts to them trying to bully the company into signing off on something it is not able to.
I m probably not explaining any of this properly/clearly enough to get useful advice from more knowledgeable people than I, but I am unable to square away how a judge can try a case that has not been presented by either party which has resulted in 2 wasted days in court at the company s expense and still requires a third court visit to resolve the original MCOL!
IANAL............. But if there is 'no case in law' then I still can't see why your organisation (solicitor) can't make an application to have it struck out...........if it goes to a final hearing, and the claim is 'vexatious and without merit in law', then perhaps your solicitor should be asking for an exception to the normal MCOL rules on Costs as per the link I posted earlier........... what does the solicitor say?Their professional conduct is what I am questioning. At the first hearing they made clear the claim had no basis in law and the claimant should consider the matter closed once they had complied with the covenants they are in violation of and the company are able to sign off what they are required to.
What I am struggling to understand is how a case that has no basis in law ever saw the inside of a court room. The facts as presented to the court by both sides were clear: Claimant says that the company not doing what they are asked to caused costs and damages. Company refuted, stating that a) what they were asked to do was unlawful and b) that there was evidence to support that the actions of the company were not the cause of the claimant incurring costs and damages (apologies, appreciate this is new info not in the OP).
If the judge told the claimant in court that their claim had no basis in law why/how is it possible for the judge to drag both parties to court in the first place? The case as presented is very much vexatious on the part of the claimant and amounts to them trying to bully the company into signing off on something it is not able to.
I m probably not explaining any of this properly/clearly enough to get useful advice from more knowledgeable people than I, but I am unable to square away how a judge can try a case that has not been presented by either party which has resulted in 2 wasted days in court at the company s expense and still requires a third court visit to resolve the original MCOL!
trevalvole said:
I think you've explained it clearly, but you just don't like the (correct imo) answer that ADJimbo gave you.
Thanks for your valued input, but at no point have I said I am not happy with the answer ADJimbo has kindly provided. @ADJimbo, I did read the link you posted and passed it to another board member who was at the hearing, thank you. They advised the solicitor is intending to do exactly this at the final hearing. Unfortunately, even if that goes in the company’s favour, with money claims getting the judgement is just the first step and collecting is a whole different issue. We shall see when the time comes.
What the company are unhappy about and what my OP is about is that the judge is indeed in resolution mode but what they are trying to resolve is not what any of us were in court for. The dispute as presented is:
Claimant: Company didn’t do X which caused Y and therefore I incurred these costs and I want these damages for the stress of it all
Company: We didn’t do X because it is in breach of the covenants we must enforce. We also have this evidence that shows that actually Z caused Y and that Z was entirely of your making, not ours therefore we do not accept fault for the costs incurred and the worry caused
The dispute that we thought the resolution hearing was about: Did the company’s actions (or lack of) cause claimant’s costs, yes or no?
The resolution we got: Claimant, you are recommended to comply with what you are in breach of, company will then do what they need to for you when the time comes in the future. Then consider the matter closed as your claim is baseless.
If the judge never intended to resolve the dispute in front of them because there was no case to answer how can they drag both parties to court, twice? Claimant isn’t happy as they have now been recommended they should to do what we asked them to do in the first place and they shouldn’t be owed a penny from the company, company is unhappy that they have incurred legal costs that should never have been incurred because there is no case to answer and have only done so because a judge decided to try and fix an issue not presented to the court and that neither party asked for.
Edited by Robberto on Friday 24th October 11:54
To be clear, if trying to find any resolution in a case like this is exactly what a judge should be doing then it’s the process they should be following and the company just has to accept that. But if they have gone off on their own crusade for reasons known only to them the company would like them to be reprimanded for wasting their own time, the court’s time and both parties’ time.
Do you not see that complaints against judges can't work like complaints for poor service in a restaurant? If it did, then the following could become common practice: don't like your conviction for murder, then don't appeal to address the validity of the conviction on its merits; just make a complaint against the judge and tie them up in a load of paperwork.
Robberto said:
To be clear, if trying to find any resolution in a case like this is exactly what a judge should be doing then it s the process they should be following and the company just has to accept that. But if they have gone off on their own crusade for reasons known only to them the company would like them to be reprimanded for wasting their own time, the court s time and both parties time.
What does your solicitor say?trevalvole said:
Do you not see that complaints against judges can't work like complaints for poor service in a restaurant? If it did, then the following could become common practice: don't like your conviction for murder, then don't appeal to address the validity of the conviction on its merits; just make a complaint against the judge and tie them up in a load of paperwork.
Are you trolling or just being deliberately obtuse? There absolutely are processes for complaining about members of the court (HMCTS complaints procedure, JCIO) and they are very obviously not a type of appeal. In this instance there’s nothing to yet appeal because despite 2 seperate visits to court no decision has been made to appeal and it will take a third to get to that point. The guide available that focus on complaints around behaviour in court are geared towards complaining about how judges speak or act in court. The very example used in on .gov guideline I’ve already read uses the example of being shouted at by a judge. To me that is much more akin to a “customer service complaint” you refer to in your post. What is not clear from what I have read online is if the sort of behaviour we have experienced is akin to unprofessional conduct because they are trying a case entirely made up in their head, not the case that was put in front of them by the MCOL process.
If guides explaining this don’t exist in the public domain because it’s not for plebs like me to worry about and should be left to legal professionals, that’s what we will do. If the guide doesn’t exist because there is no oversight on this type of behaviour by judges, we might not like that but we will have to accept it.
The purpose of my post was to find out if what we have experienced fits into one of the many avenues of complaint that already exist as the information available does not cover our particular complaint.
ATG said:
Robberto said:
To be clear, if trying to find any resolution in a case like this is exactly what a judge should be doing then it s the process they should be following and the company just has to accept that. But if they have gone off on their own crusade for reasons known only to them the company would like them to be reprimanded for wasting their own time, the court s time and both parties time.
What does your solicitor say?As we are not a revenue generating company we don’t have bottomless pockets for legal fees so I thought I’d ask the question here before more emails and phone calls and therefore more fees. If there was a process we could instigate ourselves we would do so, if not we will have to make a decision of whether it’s worth it
Robberto said:
ATG said:
Robberto said:
To be clear, if trying to find any resolution in a case like this is exactly what a judge should be doing then it s the process they should be following and the company just has to accept that. But if they have gone off on their own crusade for reasons known only to them the company would like them to be reprimanded for wasting their own time, the court s time and both parties time.
What does your solicitor say?As we are not a revenue generating company we don t have bottomless pockets for legal fees so I thought I d ask the question here before more emails and phone calls and therefore more fees. If there was a process we could instigate ourselves we would do so, if not we will have to make a decision of whether it s worth it
Robberto said:
Are you trolling or just being deliberately obtuse?
I could ask you the same.Robberto said:
What is not clear from what I have read online is if the sort of behaviour we have experienced is akin to unprofessional conduct because they are trying a case entirely made up in their head, not the case that was put in front of them by the MCOL process.
The longstanding complaints procedure that applies if you don't like how a judge has tried a case is to appeal. I doubt an exception will be made for you.Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff