Neue Klasse new 4 series or something else..?
Discussion
https://www.bmwblog.com/2024/07/05/bmw-neue-klasse...
Is this the new i4? I8? Or something completely new? If it's the new i4, sign me up!
Whatever it is it looks fantastic. The motor per wheel layout and general stance of the car suggests this is going to be an all out performance offering, probably the first full fat electric M car...
Anyone know more about this car?
Is this the new i4? I8? Or something completely new? If it's the new i4, sign me up!
Whatever it is it looks fantastic. The motor per wheel layout and general stance of the car suggests this is going to be an all out performance offering, probably the first full fat electric M car...
Anyone know more about this car?
Rather odd looking thing isn't it? The whole design from the front up to about level with the rear wheels makes you think the shoulder line is going to drop away slightly at the back, or at least level off, but it just keeps rising. Combined with the ridiculously big wheels, it looks like something hot-wheels would produce.
The shape is far from unpleasant. It's just unusual.
ETA: My gut feeling is that it's not a direct replacement for any of the current models, but rather some sort of peculiar SUV/Coupe hybrid thing. It's tall and it looks more 2+2 than four-seater. I guess that doesn't mean it's not the new i4 though.
The shape is far from unpleasant. It's just unusual.
ETA: My gut feeling is that it's not a direct replacement for any of the current models, but rather some sort of peculiar SUV/Coupe hybrid thing. It's tall and it looks more 2+2 than four-seater. I guess that doesn't mean it's not the new i4 though.
Edited by kambites on Monday 3rd November 11:16
That article is over a year old - I think the first electric M car (defined by BMW as having four motors) is going to be the i3M - there seem to have been a few sightings of something testing at the Nurburgring recently. This article isn't as recent as some of the youtube vids, but gives a good shot of the car in question.
https://insideevs.com/news/754930/bmw-m3-electric-...
https://insideevs.com/news/754930/bmw-m3-electric-...
kambites said:
Rather odd looking thing isn't it? The whole design from the front up to about level with the rear wheels makes you think the shoulder line is going to drop away slightly at the back, or at least level off, but it just keeps rising. Combined with the ridiculously big wheels, it looks like something hot-wheels would produce.
The shape is far from unpleasant. It's just unusual.
ETA: My gut feeling is that it's not a direct replacement for any of the current models, but rather some sort of peculiar SUV/Coupe hybrid thing. It's tall and it looks more 2+2 than four-seater.
It's certainly designed to be dramatic. The lines make the rake angle of the thing looks even more aggressive than it actually is too. There can be no doubt that BMW are making a statement with the design - hot wheels isn't a bad comparison with their chosen design!The shape is far from unpleasant. It's just unusual.
ETA: My gut feeling is that it's not a direct replacement for any of the current models, but rather some sort of peculiar SUV/Coupe hybrid thing. It's tall and it looks more 2+2 than four-seater.
Edited by kambites on Monday 3rd November 11:11
I expect the big wheels are at least in part a result of the hub motors they contain, but just imagine the traction and dynamic abilities of those big wheels now each has a dedicated motor... The torque vectoring tricks such a layout makes possible should be very impressive.
It probably isn't the new i4, as you say it could be something new, quite possibly a new i8 equivalent halo car for the brand. But it does also look like a lot of the design could translate to the new 4 series very easily. It's kind of what I would have imagined the new 4 series could look like, even if I hadn't seen the photos of this new car.
plfrench said:
That article is over a year old - I think the first electric M car (defined by BMW as having four motors) is going to be the i3M - there seem to have been a few sightings of something testing at the Nurburgring recently. This article isn't as recent as some of the youtube vids, but gives a good shot of the car in question.
https://insideevs.com/news/754930/bmw-m3-electric-...
Thanks. Not surprising that the new cars will be led by the 3 series - although the 4 series is overtaking 3 series sales these days.https://insideevs.com/news/754930/bmw-m3-electric-...
It'll be interesting so see how they play the first electric M car. They're going to put out an ICE version too so, which will they 'allow' to be the most capable? In theory a quad motor M car can easily achieve the torque vectoring witchcraft required to more than offset it's weight penalty Vs the petrol car, but that's not to say BMW will want the electric car displace the abilities of the IC car just yet.
TheDeuce said:
It's certainly designed to be dramatic. The lines make the rake angle of the thing looks even more aggressive than it actually is too. There can be no doubt that BMW are making a statement with the design - hot wheels isn't a bad comparison with their chosen design!
I expect the big wheels are at least in part a result of the hub motors they contain, but just imagine the traction and dynamic abilities of those big wheels now each has a dedicated motor... The torque vectoring tricks such a layout makes possible should be very impressive.
...
1 motor per wheel doesn't automatically mean hub motors. It would be revolutionary if it was, so I won't expect them to do it. There's a lot of issues still there.I expect the big wheels are at least in part a result of the hub motors they contain, but just imagine the traction and dynamic abilities of those big wheels now each has a dedicated motor... The torque vectoring tricks such a layout makes possible should be very impressive.
...
As for the design, the shape looks alright but those huge wheels give it a LOT of ground clearance.
kambites said:
... some sort of peculiar SUV/Coupe hybrid thing.
I agree with that sentiment.Also, they still have to graft a corporate face on it. So I don't expect it to look good by the time they are done with it.
kambites said:
Is there any reason to believe BMW will use hub-motors? It would be a very odd decision, IMO.
ETA: The other pictures posted above look much more likely for the 3/4-series replacement.
They're working with a new company that is developing hub motors, and the images of this new prototype during testing do reveal there are no brake calipers, and suspiciously large wheels - so whilst not outright proof, I would say plenty of reason to believe this new car, whatever it is destined to be, has hub motors.ETA: The other pictures posted above look much more likely for the 3/4-series replacement.
Having said that, I do question the logic of adding the weight of a motor to the unsprung wheel weight, but perhaps the loss of the calipers and discs saves at least as much as the motor adds? Another challenge for hub motors is that as they're an unsprung element, the motor and gear bearings have no mechanical protection from the vibrations and knocks the wheels take. There are certainly going to be new challenges if they go this route, but I can believe those challenges are all solvable. There's a lot of benefits to the design too...
TheDeuce said:
They're working with a new company that is developing hub motors, and the images of this new prototype during testing do reveal there are no brake calipers, and suspiciously large wheels - so whilst not outright proof, I would say plenty of reason to believe this new car, whatever it is destined to be, has hub motors.
Having said that, I do question the logic of adding the weight of a motor to the unsprung wheel weight, but perhaps the loss of the calipers and discs saves at least as much as the motor adds? Another challenge for hub motors is that as they're an unsprung element, the motor and gear bearings have no mechanical protection from the vibrations and knocks the wheels take. There are certainly going to be new challenges if they go this route, but I can believe those challenges are all solvable. There's a lot of benefits to the design too...
I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be allowed to sell a car in Europe with no friction brakes! Having said that, I do question the logic of adding the weight of a motor to the unsprung wheel weight, but perhaps the loss of the calipers and discs saves at least as much as the motor adds? Another challenge for hub motors is that as they're an unsprung element, the motor and gear bearings have no mechanical protection from the vibrations and knocks the wheels take. There are certainly going to be new challenges if they go this route, but I can believe those challenges are all solvable. There's a lot of benefits to the design too...
I wonder if they're going to do something weird like building drum brakes into the motor housing? Either way I'd have thought it would be better to have the motors in-board and hence sprung, with a short half-shaft running to the wheel.
kambites said:
Google seems to think that the next 3-series will have both petrol and electric options, but the 4 will be electric only, so it would make a certain amount of sense for them to look quite different as they will presumably be based on very different platforms.
It certainly wouldn't surprise me if the 4 series platform (or at least it's configuration of the new modular platform), became entirely distinct from the 3 series at this point. The 4 series started out as 3 series coupe, but it's appeal and sales have grown remarkably and it now probably justifies it no longer being shackled by the 3 series design. Not that 3 series underpinnings are/were a bad thing, but the 4 series now outsells the 3 series so should go it's own route for future versions perhaps.kambites said:
TheDeuce said:
They're working with a new company that is developing hub motors, and the images of this new prototype during testing do reveal there are no brake calipers, and suspiciously large wheels - so whilst not outright proof, I would say plenty of reason to believe this new car, whatever it is destined to be, has hub motors.
Having said that, I do question the logic of adding the weight of a motor to the unsprung wheel weight, but perhaps the loss of the calipers and discs saves at least as much as the motor adds? Another challenge for hub motors is that as they're an unsprung element, the motor and gear bearings have no mechanical protection from the vibrations and knocks the wheels take. There are certainly going to be new challenges if they go this route, but I can believe those challenges are all solvable. There's a lot of benefits to the design too...
I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be allowed to sell a car in Europe with no friction brakes! Having said that, I do question the logic of adding the weight of a motor to the unsprung wheel weight, but perhaps the loss of the calipers and discs saves at least as much as the motor adds? Another challenge for hub motors is that as they're an unsprung element, the motor and gear bearings have no mechanical protection from the vibrations and knocks the wheels take. There are certainly going to be new challenges if they go this route, but I can believe those challenges are all solvable. There's a lot of benefits to the design too...
I wonder if they're going to do something weird like building drum brakes into the motor housing? Either way I'd have thought it would be better to have the motors in-board and hence sprung, with a short half-shaft running to the wheel.
As for no friction brakes... I think they have to have some sort of friction brake still, even if just a relatively weak drum brake per wheel which would make sense using a hub motor. As you say, legislation and current testing requires friction brakes, but also regen braking only works above a certain speed and on some scenarios isn't available at all, so best to leave friction brakes as part of the mix. They're just not as critical as they once were and only actually need to be powerful enough to perform a single emergency braking manoeuvre without overheating.
BMW model name logic:
Let's start simple, small, medium and large sporting saloon cars = 3/5/7 series.
We need a coupe based of a 5 series with 7 series influenced styling. Easy, 6 series.
We now make a 4 door version of the previously 2 door 3 series, easy, still called the 3 series.
Need to replace the 6 series with a much more expensive model which is more luxurious... 8 series? Yes, that works.
If a model is 4 wheel drive how do we tell people, how about an X suffix?
Let's make the 2 door 3 series look more sporty, 4 series? No, keep it simple, 3 series coupe. OK.
Range reverts back to 3/5/7 for a while, but we need a SUV range, hmmm, how about that X designation? Yes, but first not last, easy, X3/X5/X7
New 3 series range is ready but now the 2 door coupe shares nothing with the saloon, 4 series now? Yes, why not.
5 series based 2 door coupe, 6 series again? Yup.
Need something smaller than a 3 series? 1 series? Yup.
Mercedes make that nice CLS thing, could we? Yes! 4 & 6 series GranCoupe. Not to be confused with a 3/5 series.
7 series based coupe, 8 series? Yes, better make a GranCoupe as well.
2 door 1 series? 2 series
2 door 3 series? 2 series.
2 wheel drive MINI based mini SUV? 2 series.
Won't people become confused? Ummmm...
We have an EV range.
f
k it, go wild.
Let's start simple, small, medium and large sporting saloon cars = 3/5/7 series.
We need a coupe based of a 5 series with 7 series influenced styling. Easy, 6 series.
We now make a 4 door version of the previously 2 door 3 series, easy, still called the 3 series.
Need to replace the 6 series with a much more expensive model which is more luxurious... 8 series? Yes, that works.
If a model is 4 wheel drive how do we tell people, how about an X suffix?
Let's make the 2 door 3 series look more sporty, 4 series? No, keep it simple, 3 series coupe. OK.
Range reverts back to 3/5/7 for a while, but we need a SUV range, hmmm, how about that X designation? Yes, but first not last, easy, X3/X5/X7
New 3 series range is ready but now the 2 door coupe shares nothing with the saloon, 4 series now? Yes, why not.
5 series based 2 door coupe, 6 series again? Yup.
Need something smaller than a 3 series? 1 series? Yup.
Mercedes make that nice CLS thing, could we? Yes! 4 & 6 series GranCoupe. Not to be confused with a 3/5 series.
7 series based coupe, 8 series? Yes, better make a GranCoupe as well.
2 door 1 series? 2 series
2 door 3 series? 2 series.
2 wheel drive MINI based mini SUV? 2 series.
Won't people become confused? Ummmm...
We have an EV range.
f
k it, go wild. It's not just BMW.
It must be great for marketing or sales somehow to confuse people.
Mercedes has lost the plot then picked it up several times over the past couple of decades.
Audi... wtf is that "power category" number signify? Last time my friend told me he was convinced he saw an A3 with a 3L engine in there because it had "30" on the back.
It must be great for marketing or sales somehow to confuse people.
Mercedes has lost the plot then picked it up several times over the past couple of decades.
Audi... wtf is that "power category" number signify? Last time my friend told me he was convinced he saw an A3 with a 3L engine in there because it had "30" on the back.
Stick Legs said:
BMW model name logic:
Let's start simple, small, medium and large sporting saloon cars = 3/5/7 series.
We need a coupe based of a 5 series with 7 series influenced styling. Easy, 6 series.
We now make a 4 door version of the previously 2 door 3 series, easy, still called the 3 series.
Need to replace the 6 series with a much more expensive model which is more luxurious... 8 series? Yes, that works.
If a model is 4 wheel drive how do we tell people, how about an X suffix?
Let's make the 2 door 3 series look more sporty, 4 series? No, keep it simple, 3 series coupe. OK.
Range reverts back to 3/5/7 for a while, but we need a SUV range, hmmm, how about that X designation? Yes, but first not last, easy, X3/X5/X7
New 3 series range is ready but now the 2 door coupe shares nothing with the saloon, 4 series now? Yes, why not.
5 series based 2 door coupe, 6 series again? Yup.
Need something smaller than a 3 series? 1 series? Yup.
Mercedes make that nice CLS thing, could we? Yes! 4 & 6 series GranCoupe. Not to be confused with a 3/5 series.
7 series based coupe, 8 series? Yes, better make a GranCoupe as well.
2 door 1 series? 2 series
2 door 3 series? 2 series.
2 wheel drive MINI based mini SUV? 2 series.
Won't people become confused? Ummmm...
We have an EV range.
fk it, go wild.
As Clarkson said of the 4 series Grand Coupe: "This is the 4 door version of the two door version of the 4 door car".Let's start simple, small, medium and large sporting saloon cars = 3/5/7 series.
We need a coupe based of a 5 series with 7 series influenced styling. Easy, 6 series.
We now make a 4 door version of the previously 2 door 3 series, easy, still called the 3 series.
Need to replace the 6 series with a much more expensive model which is more luxurious... 8 series? Yes, that works.
If a model is 4 wheel drive how do we tell people, how about an X suffix?
Let's make the 2 door 3 series look more sporty, 4 series? No, keep it simple, 3 series coupe. OK.
Range reverts back to 3/5/7 for a while, but we need a SUV range, hmmm, how about that X designation? Yes, but first not last, easy, X3/X5/X7
New 3 series range is ready but now the 2 door coupe shares nothing with the saloon, 4 series now? Yes, why not.
5 series based 2 door coupe, 6 series again? Yup.
Need something smaller than a 3 series? 1 series? Yup.
Mercedes make that nice CLS thing, could we? Yes! 4 & 6 series GranCoupe. Not to be confused with a 3/5 series.
7 series based coupe, 8 series? Yes, better make a GranCoupe as well.
2 door 1 series? 2 series
2 door 3 series? 2 series.
2 wheel drive MINI based mini SUV? 2 series.
Won't people become confused? Ummmm...
We have an EV range.
f
k it, go wild. Which is easy to mock but actually in GC form the 4 series is arguably more practical and better looking than the 3 series which spawned it, so there was method in the madness, even if they possibly only accidentally got the formula just right.
What's not to like about a stylish fastback coupe with 4 doors and a giant rear hatch? I don't understand why anyone other than those that frequently need to transport 3 adults in the rear would choose the 3 series these days. Sedans simply aren't as versatile.
However, the GT variants really do confuse me and seem entirely pointless. It's as if they're trying to fill the tiniest niche in between the main cars and it amazes me that they (presumably) manage to sell enough to make the effort worthwhile.
ZesPak said:
It's not just BMW.
It must be great for marketing or sales somehow to confuse people.
Mercedes has lost the plot then picked it up several times over the past couple of decades.
Audi... wtf is that "power category" number signify? Last time my friend told me he was convinced he saw an A3 with a 3L engine in there because it had "30" on the back.
I guess they had to move away from model designation being linked to engine size when engine size stopped being impressive! Also given that some or all of the power these days doesn't actually come from an engine...It must be great for marketing or sales somehow to confuse people.
Mercedes has lost the plot then picked it up several times over the past couple of decades.
Audi... wtf is that "power category" number signify? Last time my friend told me he was convinced he saw an A3 with a 3L engine in there because it had "30" on the back.
It still makes no sense though as the new designations don't seem to relate to power either. My car is an M50, but 50 what
TheDeuce said:
It still makes no sense though as the new designations don't seem to relate to power either. My car is an M50, but 50 what
My point exactly. It's just arbitrary numbers. They could do kW, they could do hp, but no, you'd have to be an Audi nerd to understand them.And next thing that happens is upping the random numbers. Because an i4 M50 is obviously less than an A6 55.
TheDeuce said:
As Clarkson said of the 4 series Grand Coupe: "This is the 4 door version of the two door version of the 4 door car".
Which is easy to mock but actually in GC form the 4 series is arguably more practical and better looking than the 3 series which spawned it, so there was method in the madness, even if they possibly only accidentally got the formula just right.
Yep, but the Mazda 6 was there in 4 door, estate and 5 door.Which is easy to mock but actually in GC form the 4 series is arguably more practical and better looking than the 3 series which spawned it, so there was method in the madness, even if they possibly only accidentally got the formula just right.
The A4 came in 2dr convertible, 4 door sedan and estate.
3 series, 3 series coupe, 3 series estate, 3 series convertible.
Same for the C-class.
Splitting them up just defies logic imho. Must be marketing related to create such nonsense.
Edited by ZesPak on Monday 3rd November 13:19
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