Is a family van the right choice here?
Discussion
I m on the hunt to replace the family wagon. My trusty mk2 Octavia wagon is on its last legs, and wanting a second opinion on its replacement.
Current situation:
- one large Bernese mountain dog (55kg), and like to get another in the next 2 years
- one young chap (4 months), and plan to have another sprog in the next 18 months
- we regularly go around the UK for long weekends or weeks away (North Wales / Lakes / Peaks) and seem to take half the house with us. So far a roof box has made this possible
I feel when we go away with the roof box, the cars at the limit, and introducing another dog and child will become problematic. I ve been looking at Superb mk3 estates which look like they may fit the bill, but thinking with two large dogs in the boot, it s not going to give a lot more space than I have now.
I was starting to come around to the idea that a van (Transporter Shuttle / Proace Verso etc) might be a better choice, but has the downsides of higher running costs. We ve already got a little electric car already for local trips.
My main requirements:
- 2 isofix-enabled seats
- I regularly tow my caterham and mk1 Elise to track days (6-7 times per year), so need a minimum of 1600kg tow capacity
- Not really fussed about manual or automatic
- I don t live in a ULEZ zone, but there s a chance one near me could be extended in the future
- Generally reliable/safe. I m mechanically minded so don t mind getting hands dirty with servicing and repairs.
- 60% ferrying around (40/50mph roads) and 40% motorway driving, around 10k miles per year
- It d be nice for it to be fun to drive, but I have got my two fun cars, so this isn t as much of a requirement
- Budget of under £20k
Any advice from fellow PH ers who may have been in a similar situation?
Current situation:
- one large Bernese mountain dog (55kg), and like to get another in the next 2 years
- one young chap (4 months), and plan to have another sprog in the next 18 months
- we regularly go around the UK for long weekends or weeks away (North Wales / Lakes / Peaks) and seem to take half the house with us. So far a roof box has made this possible
I feel when we go away with the roof box, the cars at the limit, and introducing another dog and child will become problematic. I ve been looking at Superb mk3 estates which look like they may fit the bill, but thinking with two large dogs in the boot, it s not going to give a lot more space than I have now.
I was starting to come around to the idea that a van (Transporter Shuttle / Proace Verso etc) might be a better choice, but has the downsides of higher running costs. We ve already got a little electric car already for local trips.
My main requirements:
- 2 isofix-enabled seats
- I regularly tow my caterham and mk1 Elise to track days (6-7 times per year), so need a minimum of 1600kg tow capacity
- Not really fussed about manual or automatic
- I don t live in a ULEZ zone, but there s a chance one near me could be extended in the future
- Generally reliable/safe. I m mechanically minded so don t mind getting hands dirty with servicing and repairs.
- 60% ferrying around (40/50mph roads) and 40% motorway driving, around 10k miles per year
- It d be nice for it to be fun to drive, but I have got my two fun cars, so this isn t as much of a requirement
- Budget of under £20k
Any advice from fellow PH ers who may have been in a similar situation?
Edited by 20Drift on Sunday 16th November 19:28
I've had a Transporter and would have another tomorrow.
I'm about 4 years down the line from you by the sounds of and have stuck at 1 big dog. I'm currently weighing up Toyota Vellfire's for a little more luxury and car like dynamics than a Transporter. There's also a few new EV MPVs, the Kia PV5 is surprisingly affordable given most new car prices, not much of a looker though.
I'm about 4 years down the line from you by the sounds of and have stuck at 1 big dog. I'm currently weighing up Toyota Vellfire's for a little more luxury and car like dynamics than a Transporter. There's also a few new EV MPVs, the Kia PV5 is surprisingly affordable given most new car prices, not much of a looker though.
Somebody will be along to say an estate plus roof box is as much capacity as you'll ever need and a van based family vehicle is pointless.
However...
We (me, wife, 8yr & 5yr old... no dog) outgrew a Volvo XC70 last year. Granted yes, most the time it was big enough and that could be further extended by adding the roof box and bike carriers. But there were times that throwing the whole lifestyle accessory catalogue on it wasn't enough and as the kids got bigger, those time became more regular.
I started looking at medium sized vans and quickly realised that converted panel vans / Kombi stuff wasn't without their drawbacks which in turn lead me on a Shuttle or Caravelle... or a V-Class. I ended up with a 14 plate Shuttle and ignored my wife's request for a SWB and bought a LWB and in hindsight, I'm glad I did. Research made me scared of the Bi-turbo / like to eat their own EGR / turbo era vans so I bought a 2.0TDi 140 with a manual box. All 180,000 mile of ex-travel company shuttle tool.
I immediately removed the third row of seats and lobbed them in the garage and swapped the commercial rated tyres for decent SUV spec all seasons and it's also been changed from T32 suspension to T28 as dear God it was incredibly harsh. Probably as it was spec'd to cope with 8 big people plus luggage. We are not 8 big people with luggage. Just four either baggage.
In short, brilliant tool. Yes, it's a van so it'll never hold a candle to a Lotus Exige but it's fine in a sort of commercial vehicle way. Granted in LWB guise some spaces are a bit tight but pick your battles accordingly. It's acceptable to drive, does 35mpg and will sit for hours at 80mph. Reasonable spec - nav, alloys, sunroof, rear heater, air con, parking sensors, captains seats, spoiler etc so doesn't feel too builders merchant spec. Twin sliding doors so anybody who says their Skoda Superb has a big opening for loading the kids through... nope, not even close.
Ultimately it's trump card is capacity. It'll seat 6 in it's current set up and I can easily fit four big blokes plus four large eMTBs in it with no fuss. We've slept in it, had picnics in it, movie nights in it, shifted furniture, ton bags of gravel, 8 people and even my wife can't fill it with her excessive packing disorder. Recently it's been dragging a car trailer about and it coped fine with a 2400kg (it's rated at 3T) so would pull a Caterham around no problem.
There are days I consider selling it in lieu of a fast estate... Audi S4 variety... however I honestly couldn't do it as the lack of space / convenience would irritate me. I can't be arsed with bike carriers or roof boxes. Open the back chuck, chuck everything in and go. The downsides are it's a 15 year old VW thus has a few bits showing signs of metal cancer so they'll be sorted soon and it's had a couple of issues... starter motor and alternator failed, but it's a Transporter, nothing is complicated.
There will be those who say they're overpriced / not worth it and yes, there are other similar van based options or you could go down the converted panel van route and open up your choice of flavours (but do your research) and yes, whilst mine wasn't cheap, a year and 15k down the line... looking at similar vans on the market now, I reckon I'd get my money back, including the maintenance costs.
Happy to have a chat via PM if you want to know more or if you're in central Scotland, welcome to come have a look / take the keys and go have a shot and see if it'd suit your needs.
However...
We (me, wife, 8yr & 5yr old... no dog) outgrew a Volvo XC70 last year. Granted yes, most the time it was big enough and that could be further extended by adding the roof box and bike carriers. But there were times that throwing the whole lifestyle accessory catalogue on it wasn't enough and as the kids got bigger, those time became more regular.
I started looking at medium sized vans and quickly realised that converted panel vans / Kombi stuff wasn't without their drawbacks which in turn lead me on a Shuttle or Caravelle... or a V-Class. I ended up with a 14 plate Shuttle and ignored my wife's request for a SWB and bought a LWB and in hindsight, I'm glad I did. Research made me scared of the Bi-turbo / like to eat their own EGR / turbo era vans so I bought a 2.0TDi 140 with a manual box. All 180,000 mile of ex-travel company shuttle tool.
I immediately removed the third row of seats and lobbed them in the garage and swapped the commercial rated tyres for decent SUV spec all seasons and it's also been changed from T32 suspension to T28 as dear God it was incredibly harsh. Probably as it was spec'd to cope with 8 big people plus luggage. We are not 8 big people with luggage. Just four either baggage.
In short, brilliant tool. Yes, it's a van so it'll never hold a candle to a Lotus Exige but it's fine in a sort of commercial vehicle way. Granted in LWB guise some spaces are a bit tight but pick your battles accordingly. It's acceptable to drive, does 35mpg and will sit for hours at 80mph. Reasonable spec - nav, alloys, sunroof, rear heater, air con, parking sensors, captains seats, spoiler etc so doesn't feel too builders merchant spec. Twin sliding doors so anybody who says their Skoda Superb has a big opening for loading the kids through... nope, not even close.
Ultimately it's trump card is capacity. It'll seat 6 in it's current set up and I can easily fit four big blokes plus four large eMTBs in it with no fuss. We've slept in it, had picnics in it, movie nights in it, shifted furniture, ton bags of gravel, 8 people and even my wife can't fill it with her excessive packing disorder. Recently it's been dragging a car trailer about and it coped fine with a 2400kg (it's rated at 3T) so would pull a Caterham around no problem.
There are days I consider selling it in lieu of a fast estate... Audi S4 variety... however I honestly couldn't do it as the lack of space / convenience would irritate me. I can't be arsed with bike carriers or roof boxes. Open the back chuck, chuck everything in and go. The downsides are it's a 15 year old VW thus has a few bits showing signs of metal cancer so they'll be sorted soon and it's had a couple of issues... starter motor and alternator failed, but it's a Transporter, nothing is complicated.
There will be those who say they're overpriced / not worth it and yes, there are other similar van based options or you could go down the converted panel van route and open up your choice of flavours (but do your research) and yes, whilst mine wasn't cheap, a year and 15k down the line... looking at similar vans on the market now, I reckon I'd get my money back, including the maintenance costs.
Happy to have a chat via PM if you want to know more or if you're in central Scotland, welcome to come have a look / take the keys and go have a shot and see if it'd suit your needs.
Caravelle or Viano, or a California beach at a stretch.
The Japanese alternatives are also good (Alphard Vellfire or Elgrand) but the newer ones are a bit more cramped inside than a Caravelle. The japs also will be worse on fuel and if you need to tow it’s a bit problematic.
If you’re using it as a daily id recommend avoiding the transporter shuttle and Vito versions, the van variants tend to be a lot more poverty in terms of spec and have a lot less sound deadening etc so nowhere near as comfortable as a Caravelle or Viano.
The Japanese alternatives are also good (Alphard Vellfire or Elgrand) but the newer ones are a bit more cramped inside than a Caravelle. The japs also will be worse on fuel and if you need to tow it’s a bit problematic.
If you’re using it as a daily id recommend avoiding the transporter shuttle and Vito versions, the van variants tend to be a lot more poverty in terms of spec and have a lot less sound deadening etc so nowhere near as comfortable as a Caravelle or Viano.
wombleh said:
My next vehicle will be a van to replace current 5 series estate, mainly looking at merc vito as more car like , much the same mpg as my current car and avoids the VW tax.
Also quite nice to drive; surprisingly good when I borrowed one from a friend. My wife does things like open water swimming, triathlons, etc and one could be perfect as you can get changed in the back of one, plus haul all the gear.Take a look at the Hyundai i800 as well, they are much better value than the VWs and they drive nicely. I've been looking at them for a while as a family bus.
I've always been torn by the Proace Verso - does it have the lifetime warranty if serviced by Toyota, or do they not include this vehicle as it is a Stellantis in disguise?
https://www.pistonheads.com/buy/listing/19284694
I've always been torn by the Proace Verso - does it have the lifetime warranty if serviced by Toyota, or do they not include this vehicle as it is a Stellantis in disguise?
https://www.pistonheads.com/buy/listing/19284694
5 seat combi vans are brilliant things.
SWB versions are a doddle to park, similar footprint to a large SUV. LWB vans are usually longer than a parking space.
Depending on the van and how it was registered, you may have to adhere to van speed limits (50/60 on NSL rather than 60/70). This applies to my van but it's never been a problem.
After a lot of research last year I went with a Vito and absolutely love it. Incredibly useful vehicle, comfy and pleasant to drive, and fully useable as a family car as well as its primary role of mountain bike transport.
SWB versions are a doddle to park, similar footprint to a large SUV. LWB vans are usually longer than a parking space.
Depending on the van and how it was registered, you may have to adhere to van speed limits (50/60 on NSL rather than 60/70). This applies to my van but it's never been a problem.
After a lot of research last year I went with a Vito and absolutely love it. Incredibly useful vehicle, comfy and pleasant to drive, and fully useable as a family car as well as its primary role of mountain bike transport.
Owned my T5.1 for 12 years now. Kombi setup, seats 6 and sleeps 4 inside with the poptop. Won't ever sell it - suits our lifestyle perfectly (we have a C Class estate as a daily and even that's full on a regular basis just doing shopping/kids football etc - we simply couldn't live with just an estate).
Also on the hunt for a van based family vehicle, to replace a Peugeot 5008 which we've had for 8 years and been utterly brilliant, but it's coming up 11 years old and 110k and showing its age, mainly the aircon has recently packed up and needs dash out to fix which I'm unwilling to chuck money at considering the cars worth little. 4 kids and the wife and I, so we do actually need a big vehicle, mainly for family holidays driving down to the South of France.
Something to consider, the Peugeot Traveller, Citroen Spacetourer, Vauxhall Vivaro Life and Toyota Proace Verso are all identical vehicles, just a rebadging exercise. However, if you get a Toyota with full Toyota history, it will continue the Toyota warranty for 10 years, providing you continue to get it serviced at Toyota. Basically every Toyota service extends the warranty by 12 months, up to a maximum of 10 years. The 1.5D has chain problems, the 2.0D is the one to get from my research, the lower powered version is a manual, the higher powered version automatic.
Come in 8 or 9 seater configurations, some are extremely basic however so pick the spec carefully. I'm still looking for the ideal one for us, but will likely leave it till after Christmas now.
Something to consider, the Peugeot Traveller, Citroen Spacetourer, Vauxhall Vivaro Life and Toyota Proace Verso are all identical vehicles, just a rebadging exercise. However, if you get a Toyota with full Toyota history, it will continue the Toyota warranty for 10 years, providing you continue to get it serviced at Toyota. Basically every Toyota service extends the warranty by 12 months, up to a maximum of 10 years. The 1.5D has chain problems, the 2.0D is the one to get from my research, the lower powered version is a manual, the higher powered version automatic.
Come in 8 or 9 seater configurations, some are extremely basic however so pick the spec carefully. I'm still looking for the ideal one for us, but will likely leave it till after Christmas now.
Thanks all - didn't expect to wake up to this many replies!
Seems like the general consensus is I'm not mad. Shortlist seems to be:
- VW Transporter Kombi/Shuttle / Caravelle
- Mercedes Vito/Viano
- Stellantis Traveller / Space Tourer / Proace Verso / Vivaro Life
- Hyundai i800
- Toyota Alphard / Nissan Elgrand, although I may have to rule these out on towing grounds
I like the look of the VWs, and they seem to hold their 'VW Tax' value. I'd not considered the Vito option before, so will have to do some investigation into that - is there a preferable engine choice?
Also, I've read about some adblue-related issues with the Stellantis options. Are they really widespread, or just a case of finding a vehicle which has had the work done, and it won't go wrong again?
Davie said:
Happy to have a chat via PM if you want to know more or if you're in central Scotland, welcome to come have a look / take the keys and go have a shot and see if it'd suit your needs.
That's very kind, thank you! I'd take you up on the offer, but I'm the opposite end of the country.vaud said:
2 very young kids, 2 big dogs and planning track days? I hope your wife is incredibly patient
This gave me a chuckle... While the patience is there, you have to take advantage! I suspect my number of track days will be reducing soon!Seems like the general consensus is I'm not mad. Shortlist seems to be:
- VW Transporter Kombi/Shuttle / Caravelle
- Mercedes Vito/Viano
- Stellantis Traveller / Space Tourer / Proace Verso / Vivaro Life
- Hyundai i800
- Toyota Alphard / Nissan Elgrand, although I may have to rule these out on towing grounds
I like the look of the VWs, and they seem to hold their 'VW Tax' value. I'd not considered the Vito option before, so will have to do some investigation into that - is there a preferable engine choice?
Also, I've read about some adblue-related issues with the Stellantis options. Are they really widespread, or just a case of finding a vehicle which has had the work done, and it won't go wrong again?
I believe that there is an upgrade kit for the Stellantis chain from 7mm to 8mm with upgraded ancillaries.
Do Toyota allow you to have these serviced at Peugeot and keep the warranty? I ask as I think that Peugeot probably know these engines well and now offer a 10 year warranty on chain failure.
Do Toyota allow you to have these serviced at Peugeot and keep the warranty? I ask as I think that Peugeot probably know these engines well and now offer a 10 year warranty on chain failure.
Belle427 said:
The space they provide is excellent, I share an older 2006 Transporter with the father in law and every time I drive it for a while I cant wait to give it back, cant stand it.
There is a discussion on here somewhere recently about Transporter versus Transit etc.
Hopefully it won't turn into a "What's better" thread as per the chap who documented his Transporter buying decisions and purchase. Ultimately, vans are no different to cars... ie there are many makes, models and spec that share a similar market segment this there is choice but what choice you make, really comes down to personal preference be it how a vehicle looks, drives, feels or costs. Hence, in my earlier post I said research was key - need to look at several options, drive them, see what is your chosen favourite and then with it and ignore the "It's crap because it's a Ford / VW / Vauxhall" camp.There is a discussion on here somewhere recently about Transporter versus Transit etc.
I'm maybe less bothered as I've driven vans on and off for my entire life this I know what to expect and lowered my expectations accordingly. When I bought mine, a mate was quick to point out that it won't handle that well... not that well for a van? Or not that well compared to an M3 or a decent sized ocean going tug boat? Mine also has its fair share of rattles and roadhouse. It's a van. I could Dynomat it and spends months chasing trim noise but it's a van, we're not looking at Bentley esque NVH standards here.
Yes, I get in mine and at times it's a bit hard work... and I drift off thinking maybe a nice big A6 or & series would be a much nicer place to be, better to drive, faster and it would. But equally, a big estate simply wouldn't be as practical as a van. If you don't need space and driver engagement / spec / NVH is very important. Don't buy a van, you'll hate it. If however you need space, can use the space and are happy to accept it's a commercial vehicle at heart and that it'll never be on par with a car, then they're excellent tools.
Used to be similar issues when double cab pick ups became a thing for those looking for a tax break. I worked for various manufacturers and every single one had new owners whining about driving dynamics, poor handling, choppy ride etc etc. What did you have before sir? Ahhh, a MK4 Discovery... aye well like it or not, the D22 Navara you're driving now has more in common with a horse drawn cart than the Discovery 4. It's always why I'd definitely definitely advise getting a good drive in whatever van is short listed to make sure you're aware or what van life will entail as far as being sat in the driver's seat is concerned. Pros and cons.
20Drift said:
Any advice from fellow PH ers who may have been in a similar situation?
Best motoring decision I ever made. My background - always had a 'sports car' or toy of some sort in the garage. And then a whole bunch of estate cars.
No dogs, but bikes instead - lots of camping trips, cars absolutely packed to gunnels, weekends away etc. I am a keen mountain biker so have spent my life surrounded by VW T4/5/6 owners!
Made the decision 18 months ago to actually do it. Will struggle to go back. For a similar budget I bought one of the absolute best, last of the line Vianos. 220hp, 6 captains chairs, Harmann Kardon, Front and Rear Climate, memory seats, dual sunroofs, 19" wheels, factory curtains in the back, air suspension etc etc. It costs a bit to fuel but I absolutely love it. In fact, the family loves it, everyone who goes in it loves it. Quite happily drove it to the Pyrenees in August with a medium sized platoons worth of camping gear in it. I can do the odd little overnighter in the back with my bike for a race. You can take all the seats out and its basically a Vito panel van. It looks good. Pulls like a good'un loaded up with the proper engine. 6 cylinder diesel is the party piece for these that none of its competitors can match.
I have briefly considered on occasions whether a regular car would do the trick but no estate car, no SUV, not the biggest possible Range Rover or even a long wheelbase Ineo Grenadier gets anywhere, anywhere even close to the practicality of a proper Van based vehicle.
As per above, I wont go into why a Merc is better than a VW (it is, for many reasons), but what I would say is - do it.
And crucally - get the MPV version of the Van.
Which means a Viano or V-Class, not a Vito. A Caravelle or California, not a Transporter or Kombi. Tourneo Custom, not Transit Custom. A Peugeot Traveller, not a Pegueot Partner combi. Pro-ace Verso, not Pro-ace..... etc etc. Tor
I tried them all. There are marked improvements in spec, NVH, insulation, equipment, general niceties etc that make the difference for something that will be used in the way that I, and you intend to, use the vehicle. Car Tax, Car insurance (much cheaper!) Car MOT, Car speed limits, Car motorway tolls in Europe, Car access to your local tip... etc etc
Edited by snotrag on Monday 17th November 13:55
Edited by snotrag on Monday 17th November 13:56
I've got some nice toys that I could use daily, but prefer to use my van 99% of the time.
I moved a wardrobe and chest of drawers this weekend, put 3 lads and all their rugby gear in it, took both my dogs out and dropped a load of crap from the garage off at the tip.
Myself and three mates went to Le Mans in it, also took the family down to St Tropez with a 'lorry' load of luggage, bikes etc, doing a run to Ikea soon.
Hard to find something more practical than a kombi van, no matter what brand you choose, but obviously a Transporter is best
I moved a wardrobe and chest of drawers this weekend, put 3 lads and all their rugby gear in it, took both my dogs out and dropped a load of crap from the garage off at the tip.
Myself and three mates went to Le Mans in it, also took the family down to St Tropez with a 'lorry' load of luggage, bikes etc, doing a run to Ikea soon.
Hard to find something more practical than a kombi van, no matter what brand you choose, but obviously a Transporter is best
20Drift said:
... I like the look of the VWs, and they seem to hold their 'VW Tax' value. I'd not considered the Vito option before, so will have to do some investigation into that - is there a preferable engine choice?
In the newer shape Vitos (W447, 2015 onwards) the 2.1 litre engine is the pick of the bunch. They will last almost forever if serviced properly; there are loads around still going strong with 300000+ miles. 140, 160 or 190bhp versions which are badged 114, 116, 119 respectively. The 7G-Tronic automatic gearbox is a proper torque converter unit and is hands down the best auto available in a van, being smooth and very reliable.The very newest Vitos have a 2.0 litre engine which should be a bit better in terms of efficiency, but there's mixed reports about reliability. I think the power outputs are more or less the same as the 2.1. Don't know much about the newer autos other than they're a 9 speed rather than the earlier 7 speed.
Both the 2.0 and 2.1 are rear wheel drive which is useful for towing.
The smallest engine option was a 1.6 litre Renault derived unit in the 109 and 111 vans. They're not bad, but are nothing like as long lived as the 2.1. They're also a bit underpowered (109 is 90bhp, 111 is 110bhp) and no automatic option. The 1.6 litre vans are all front wheel drive, therefore not as good for towing as the RWD versions.
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