Atmosphere speakers in the ceiling?

[clockworks]

4 metre square lounge.
65" TV mounted on the walk at a sensible height, main seating positions directly opposite.
Front speakers are a 3 channel Monitor Audio passive soundbar, driven by a Denon AVR which can do up to 9.1.
Rear/effects speakers are Monitor Audio 165 ceiling speakers, fitted close to the wall behind the armchairs.
Quad sub, hidden by sofa on left side of the room.

When I bought the soundbar, the retailer was doing a deal, a pair of Polk Atmos speakers for about £20. These are angled upward-firing units, designed to sit on top of floorstanders. I've currently got them sitting on top of the sub. Not ideal, but pretty convincing on Atmos content (Netflix and Prime).

I want to replace them with ceiling speakers, either matching the current 8" Monitor Audio units, or the 4" units from KEF (much more discreet).

I'm not sure about where to put them though. Dolby seem to suggest they should go closer to the listener than to the screen?
The amp is also configurable to use front height speakers, which would presumably be in the ceiling above the screen.

Is it better to have them at the TV end of the room, or towards the middle of the room?

Also, are the tiny KEF ceiling speakers (Ci100.2qr) any good in this application?

Edit:

Could someone change the title to "Atmos" please?

[tonyg58]

There are lots of speaker position diagrams out there (just put 5.1.2 diagram into a search engine).
From a quick look, it appears that the suggested position is from slightly in front to slightly behind the seating position.

https://www.dolby.com/en-in/about/support/guide/se...

Looking at the KEFs they seem to be very limited, they're only 83db efficient and they're going to struggle below 100Hz.

I haven't had a serious look, but going up to a 5 inch bass unit will get you a speaker that is much more efficient and also able to produce much lower frequencies. I'm not recommending them, but these Focals -

https://petertyson.co.uk/focal-100-icw5-in-wall-in...

are 88db efficient and are going down to 65 Hz reasonably well.

[clockworks]

The low sensitivity of the KEFs did make me think they wouldn't be a good match

[Sporky]

I'd go Monitor Audio to match the rest.

I don't like mixing brands, with the exception of a non-matching sub where the frequency ranges work,

[tonyg58]

Sporky said:

I'd go Monitor Audio to match the rest.

I don't like mixing brands, with the exception of a non-matching sub where the frequency ranges work,

I had a look at the Monitor Audio range on Richer and they looked a iittle too expensive for me as an Atmos speaker which will only be on for (at most) a minute or two per hour.
Also the lack of details of frequency response always annoys me.

[Sporky]

The lack of detailed specs irks me too, but their stuff sounds right to me for what it costs.

[clockworks]

I'm very happy with the three Monitor Audio ceiling speakers that I already have - two in the lounge as rear/effects, and one in the kitchen/diner for the TV.

The kitchen one is the stereo version - 2 inputs, 2 angled tweeters, and a single woofer. I've had it for 9 years, used for several hours every day.

The thing that caught my eye about the KEF was the much smaller hole size.

I think I'll probably place them halfway between the TV and the seating positions, where they could work as Atmos or height speakers depending on the source material? The Denon X2800 seems to cover all the options.

The other option would be to repurpose the existing ceiling speakers as Atmos channels, and add a pair of wall-mounted speakers as the rear/effects channels. Placement might be a bit tricky though.

Edit:

A pair of slim, white, floorstanders would work for the rear/effects channels (or white bookshelf on white stands). Something floorstanding would fit the current room layout much better than wall-mounts.

Edited by clockworks on Saturday 22 November 18:35

[Techno9000]

clockworks said:

I'm not sure about where to put them though. Dolby seem to suggest they should go closer to the listener than to the screen?

Is it better to have them at the TV end of the room, or towards the middle of the room?

The Dolby speaker placement diagrams for Atmos show an optimum angle of 45degrees above the horizontal (taken from the main listeners head height) for the ‘front’ Atmos speaker.
There is a tolerance of 30 degrees (closer to the screen) to 55 degrees (closer to the listener) above the horizontal for this position.
The speakers should be at the width of the front left / right speakers. Given your soundbar, I’d be minded to place the Atmos speakers wider than the soundbar and at the width they would be if the front speakers were optimally positioned.

Edited by Techno9000 on Saturday 22 November 21:44

[clockworks]

Techno9000 said:

The Dolby speaker placement diagrams for Atmos show an optimum angle of 45degrees above the horizontal (taken from the main listeners head height) for the front Atmos speaker.
There is a tolerance of 30 degrees (closer to the screen) to 55 degrees (closer to the listener) above the horizontal for this position.
The speakers should be at the width of the front left / right speakers. Given your soundbar, I d be minded to place the Atmos speakers wider than the soundbar and at the width they would be if the front speakers were optimally positioned.

Edited by Techno9000 on Saturday 22 November 21:44

This is where I'm getting confused with placement.

https://www.dolby.com/siteassets/about/support/gui...

This shows the ceiling speakers being pretty much directly in line with the listening position.

A different Dolby setup, using front left/right speakers with upward-firing Atmos speakers sat on top, shows them reflecting off the ceiling above a lot closer to the screen:


https://www.dolby.com/siteassets/about/support/gui...


Maybe it doesn't matter that much as the AVR calibration will take care if it?

Edited by clockworks on Sunday 23 November 07:58

[Sporky]

The second is, as you say, if your left/right speakers have upward firing drivers too.

The first matches what you're doing, with ceiling speakers.

[clockworks]

Sporky said:

The second is, as you say, if your left/right speakers have upward firing drivers too.

The first matches what you're doing, with ceiling speakers.

That is how I was reading it, but Techno seems to suggest they should be a lot further towards the screen?


When the lounge was being redone 2 years ago, 'er indoors didn't want big brown boxes in the room.
That's why I went for the biggest passive soundbar that would fit for the front channels, and ceiling speakers for the rear channels. The ceiling speakers were fitted as far back as they could be , while avoiding the roof timbers (it's a bungalow). This means they are just a few inches behind the seating positions- apparently ideal for the Atmos channels.

A pair of slim floorstanders (white, so they sort of blend in) sited in the corners of the room would probably do a better job of the rear/effects channels.
She actually likes the look of these:

https://petertyson.co.uk/polk-signature-elite-es50...

[Techno9000]

Morning.

A fundamental of Atmos speaker placement is having enough separation between speakers that we can discern the location of the origin of the sound as being from a different place.

I assumed from your description of the room as 4 meter squared (12' x 12') that the main listening position was going to be from pretty much up against the opposite wall to the screen.

Given the existing ceiling speakers being used for what you term as 'rear/effects' (I assume they are connected to the Surround channels) are just behind your listening position, an Atmos speaker close in front of you may not be readily discerned by you as operating. It may just seem to blend in with the existing ceiling speakers Surround output...

As such, having the new Atmos ceiling speakers positioned at 45 degrees above the horizontal ahead of you, it gives greater separation to the existing ceiling speakers just behind you, giving the best chance of you discerning them as operating.

Since writing my initial response last night I've found this in Dolbys own literature that I believe supports my view.

" ..., if two overhead speakers located toward the rear of the room are currently used to reproduce left/right surround outputs, they should be used as overhead speakers only if replacement left/right surrounds can be added at the listener level. If this is not possible, the overhead speakers can continue to be used for left/right surround outputs, although not recommended.

In this case, overhead sound can be achieved by installing additional overhead speakers, Dolby Atmos enabled speakers, or add-on modules in the front speaker locations. "


However, if instead, you are now of the opinion that you will be adding Surround speakers at listening level, then the existing ceiling speakers just behind your main listening position would be reasonably located to be used as Atmos speakers in a 5.1.2 set-up.

Edited by Techno9000 on Sunday 23 November 10:22

Edited by Techno9000 on Sunday 23 November 10:24

[clockworks]

Techno9000 said:

Morning.

A fundamental of Atmos speaker placement is having enough separation between speakers that we can discern the location of the origin of the sound as being from a different place.

I assumed from your description of the room as 4 meter squared (12' x 12') that the main listening position was going to be from pretty much up against the opposite wall to the screen.

Given the existing ceiling speakers being used for what you term as 'rear/effects' (I assume they are connected to the Surround channels) are just behind your listening position, an Atmos speaker close in front of you may not be readily discerned by you as operating. It may just seem to blend in with the existing ceiling speakers Surround output...

As such, having the new Atmos ceiling speakers positioned at 45 degrees above the horizontal ahead of you, it gives greater separation to the existing ceiling speakers just behind you, giving the best chance of you discerning them as operating.

Since writing my initial response last night I've found this in Dolbys own literature that I believe supports my view.

" ..., if two overhead speakers located toward the rear of the room are currently used to reproduce left/right surround outputs, they should be used as overhead speakers only if replacement left/right surrounds can be added at the listener level. If this is not possible, the overhead speakers can continue to be used for left/right surround outputs, although not recommended.

In this case, overhead sound can be achieved by installing additional overhead speakers, Dolby Atmos enabled speakers, or add-on modules in the front speaker locations. "


However, if instead, you are now of the opinion that you will be adding Surround speakers at listening level, then the existing ceiling speakers just behind your main listening position would be reasonably located to be used as Atmos speakers in a 5.1.2 set-up.

Edited by Techno9000 on Sunday 23 November 10:22

Edited by Techno9000 on Sunday 23 November 10:24

Excellent!

Seems like my plan to re-purpose the ceiling speakers as Atmos channels, and adding a pair of rear floor-standers is the way to go.
If I wanted to add another pair if ceiling speakers, then halfway along the room would work.

A pair of floor-standers will be much less disruptive (and work better?), so I'll do that

[Techno9000]

Yes, using floor standing speakers for the Surrounds should improve, what I'll term, the 'listening level image' and allow you to use the existing ceiling speakers to do Atmos overhead duties.

[clockworks]

Thanks