March 792 1979 F2 Car
Discussion
Hi all
Following on from my old racing thread here https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
I thought I should do the same for my new adventure, hopefully it is of some interest and it's useful for me to look back on!
So having raced Sports 1000 with the 750MC successfully for 7 years, of which I won the championship 4 times, I have been in desperate need for a big change.
I think the rinse and repeat nature of racing in the same championship at the front of the pack for that long and the pressure and expectations that came with it totally burned me out.
That and the fact that racing for the championship means it's all about the points, if you don't like a track you still have to turn up, and essentially racing April to October and car prep from November to march means there is absolutely zero let up in terms of spending and effort. Sadly, it wound up feeling like a chore.
I was wondering what to do next and I started considering whether a historic single seater could be a reality for me, and the answer was yes but only if I cherry pick events and don't let the spending get out of hand - then I realised that actually fits with the new approach I want to try quite nicely. I plan to only race at tracks I really want to race at, and in something special that is eligible for your less run of the mill events.
This lead me to speaking to a chap who runs the HSCC Derek Bell Trophy generally about the championship and the club, I also sent him some links to cars I might consider and he said he had a car I might like. Fast forward a few months and it's now at home and I still can't really get my head around the fact it's mine.
The car is a 1979 March 792, was originally BMW M12 powered but now has a Ford BDG (circa 285hp), mated to a Hewland FG400. The BMWs are considered a bit more powerful but extremely expensive to run and repair/replace, even Vs a BDG. It was raced in the 1979 European F2 championship by Swedish driver Eje Elgh and won one race.
This car represents the cross over from traditional F2 cars of the 70s to Ground effect and was March's first ground effect car. A 792 won the F2 championship that year in the hands of Marc Surer. These are not quite as coveted as the earlier March cars like the 782 etc, but fundamentally it's a good bit of kit and should be a good base for having a lot of fun in the Derek Bell Trophy against cars of similar era... Plus you'd need about £40k more to buy a 782..
Modern day wise, the car can run in the Derek bell trophy against other historic f2, F3, f5000, formula atlantic and even historic F1 cars in an invitation class.
Generally, F2 cars are quite competitive and can win on the road (taking the chequered flag), somewhat depending on who turns up and what they're in.. i.e. a properly driven F5000 would always be hard to beat.. but essentially I am doing this for totally different reasons to when I raced Sports 1000 and I'm hoping it will be something really special to be a part of.
Ground effects is not allowed in modern historic racing, so the car no longer has moveable skirts and has more wing aero than it did in period. I suspect it'll still have quite a useful floor, but nothing like when it was fully sealed off!!
I already have a list of things I want to do and I will try and share more of the detail this time, as again, secrets and hard learned knowledge were kept to myself in S1000, not so much with this.
Oh, and if anyone thinks their business / branding would look good on the side of it let me know
the rubber ain't cheap!
Hope I've not bored you all too much, here's some pics.
1979
As it sits now
Short video running
https://youtube.com/shorts/GKJgsBQp0TE?si=Y5Xsqe8Q...
Following on from my old racing thread here https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
I thought I should do the same for my new adventure, hopefully it is of some interest and it's useful for me to look back on!
So having raced Sports 1000 with the 750MC successfully for 7 years, of which I won the championship 4 times, I have been in desperate need for a big change.
I think the rinse and repeat nature of racing in the same championship at the front of the pack for that long and the pressure and expectations that came with it totally burned me out.
That and the fact that racing for the championship means it's all about the points, if you don't like a track you still have to turn up, and essentially racing April to October and car prep from November to march means there is absolutely zero let up in terms of spending and effort. Sadly, it wound up feeling like a chore.
I was wondering what to do next and I started considering whether a historic single seater could be a reality for me, and the answer was yes but only if I cherry pick events and don't let the spending get out of hand - then I realised that actually fits with the new approach I want to try quite nicely. I plan to only race at tracks I really want to race at, and in something special that is eligible for your less run of the mill events.
This lead me to speaking to a chap who runs the HSCC Derek Bell Trophy generally about the championship and the club, I also sent him some links to cars I might consider and he said he had a car I might like. Fast forward a few months and it's now at home and I still can't really get my head around the fact it's mine.
The car is a 1979 March 792, was originally BMW M12 powered but now has a Ford BDG (circa 285hp), mated to a Hewland FG400. The BMWs are considered a bit more powerful but extremely expensive to run and repair/replace, even Vs a BDG. It was raced in the 1979 European F2 championship by Swedish driver Eje Elgh and won one race.
This car represents the cross over from traditional F2 cars of the 70s to Ground effect and was March's first ground effect car. A 792 won the F2 championship that year in the hands of Marc Surer. These are not quite as coveted as the earlier March cars like the 782 etc, but fundamentally it's a good bit of kit and should be a good base for having a lot of fun in the Derek Bell Trophy against cars of similar era... Plus you'd need about £40k more to buy a 782..
Modern day wise, the car can run in the Derek bell trophy against other historic f2, F3, f5000, formula atlantic and even historic F1 cars in an invitation class.
Generally, F2 cars are quite competitive and can win on the road (taking the chequered flag), somewhat depending on who turns up and what they're in.. i.e. a properly driven F5000 would always be hard to beat.. but essentially I am doing this for totally different reasons to when I raced Sports 1000 and I'm hoping it will be something really special to be a part of.
Ground effects is not allowed in modern historic racing, so the car no longer has moveable skirts and has more wing aero than it did in period. I suspect it'll still have quite a useful floor, but nothing like when it was fully sealed off!!
I already have a list of things I want to do and I will try and share more of the detail this time, as again, secrets and hard learned knowledge were kept to myself in S1000, not so much with this.
Oh, and if anyone thinks their business / branding would look good on the side of it let me know
the rubber ain't cheap!Hope I've not bored you all too much, here's some pics.
1979
As it sits now
Short video running
https://youtube.com/shorts/GKJgsBQp0TE?si=Y5Xsqe8Q...
Edited by Yazza54 on Thursday 27th November 18:31
Edited by Yazza54 on Thursday 27th November 18:36
Fantastic!
The Derek Bell trophy is probably my favourite race series as a spectator (definitely my favourite single seater race series) and I usually watch it at Silverstone and Oulton Park, so hopefully these are some of the circuits you intend racing at.
It really isn't uncommon for an F2 car to take outright victories so good luck with the prep and I hope to see you on the grid next year
The Derek Bell trophy is probably my favourite race series as a spectator (definitely my favourite single seater race series) and I usually watch it at Silverstone and Oulton Park, so hopefully these are some of the circuits you intend racing at.
It really isn't uncommon for an F2 car to take outright victories so good luck with the prep and I hope to see you on the grid next year
Thanks everyone, I'll update the thread with the to do list soon and try to document most of it here. It'll be a while til it turns a wheel given the weather etc, I am thinking Silverstone classic end of July is a good target so at least my first outing will be mid year when the weather is less likely to be terrible on a track with plenty of run off
A good friend of mine has raced in the Derek Bell series but this year he raced in the HVM international historic F2 series. Racing at tracks Zandvoort, Paul Rickard and Misano etc
He won the championship in his class which is F2 formula Atlantic in his March 76b with the 1.6 BDA. Despite being approx 100hp down to the 2litres he often finished in the top 3 overall.
For next year he is going to install a 2.0 BDG (historically correct) and he see how he goes!
Not bad for a 70 year old.
You will love it. Very competitive and very friendly bunch.
Derek Bell trophy has a right mix of cars including F5000 which sound immense. I think F2 is the most competitive though.
Makes for a great days racing.
He won the championship in his class which is F2 formula Atlantic in his March 76b with the 1.6 BDA. Despite being approx 100hp down to the 2litres he often finished in the top 3 overall.
For next year he is going to install a 2.0 BDG (historically correct) and he see how he goes!
Not bad for a 70 year old.
You will love it. Very competitive and very friendly bunch.
Derek Bell trophy has a right mix of cars including F5000 which sound immense. I think F2 is the most competitive though.
Makes for a great days racing.
Edited by Bright Halo on Friday 28th November 06:24
Thanks for all the positive comments guys, it really makes me feel like I'm doing the right thing!
So first thing I noticed when the car was back home was that the throttle pedal felt awful, removed the inner and outer and both had various kinks and corrosion so I have a new teflon lined venhill kit ready to go on, hopefully that's an easy fix and it's not more involved in terms of modifying any linkage on the Weber's - I'm used to quite light controls and everything feels heavy on this. I don't mind a bit of weight so long as it's smooth, I suspect it's mostly the cable that's the problem but maybe lighter return springs on the carbs might help too.
The clutch feels quite heavy but it's something I may get used to. One thing I know I won't like is the feel of the brake pedal, it's very firm with minimal travel - I know some people think this is some sort of brake pedal utopia, but for me, I like a higher line pressure for less leg effort, particularly for trail braking.
The brakes have two 0.7MCs, clutch has a 0.75. I am inclined to fit 0.625 MCs to the brakes and I could either try the clutch as it is, or fit one of the left over 0.7 MCs to the clutch - what concerns me with that is the effect it'll have on travel and if that'll open a box of worms.. so that's on the maybe/not so important list.
The car has a set of brand new DCO/SP 48s on it, and they fitted some clip on steel mesh filters. I did a lot of research into velocity stacks as well as designing and 3D printing my own on the spire, I know for a fact these clip on filters are awful for airflow, they effectively sit over the top of the radiused edge and render it useless, so I've removed those and fitted some foam slip ons. This will do for now, but in future I would like a proper air box on it, and maybe some better stacks as the Weber ones have quite a poor radius to them with no roll back.
Next thing is that when sitting in the car, all I can see is the rev counter. Regardless, on a car like this, I want the vital signs logged. Speaking to Aim, it sounds like I can run an AIM solo 2 DL on the wheel and with a few expander modules I can pick up everything I want, which for now is my aim camera that I took off the spire, water temp, oil pressure, rpm and AFR. It'll be nice to log the AFR as I can plug the laptop in after a session and review the fuelling, which should make life easier with carbs rather than guessing.
I will keep the dash more or less as is, the rev counter is too sexy to lose, the solo 2 will be steering wheel mounted.
https://www.aimtechnologies.com/aim-solo-2-dl/
Scribblings of a mad man figuring out the scmlematic and cable lengths/layout in the car
Other things on the list
Fire extinguisher - easy enough but I'll have to go for gas not foam so I can run a smaller bottle, due to space being at a premium. Just means more money.
Seat belts, these will have to be a custom order and it looks like I'm going to have to make some plates, as the tub just has M6 bolts holes, so I'll have to make some steel plates that bolt to the tub, that the belts can bolt to. No big deal really but just little things like that which add extra unforseen complexity.
So first thing I noticed when the car was back home was that the throttle pedal felt awful, removed the inner and outer and both had various kinks and corrosion so I have a new teflon lined venhill kit ready to go on, hopefully that's an easy fix and it's not more involved in terms of modifying any linkage on the Weber's - I'm used to quite light controls and everything feels heavy on this. I don't mind a bit of weight so long as it's smooth, I suspect it's mostly the cable that's the problem but maybe lighter return springs on the carbs might help too.
The clutch feels quite heavy but it's something I may get used to. One thing I know I won't like is the feel of the brake pedal, it's very firm with minimal travel - I know some people think this is some sort of brake pedal utopia, but for me, I like a higher line pressure for less leg effort, particularly for trail braking.
The brakes have two 0.7MCs, clutch has a 0.75. I am inclined to fit 0.625 MCs to the brakes and I could either try the clutch as it is, or fit one of the left over 0.7 MCs to the clutch - what concerns me with that is the effect it'll have on travel and if that'll open a box of worms.. so that's on the maybe/not so important list.
The car has a set of brand new DCO/SP 48s on it, and they fitted some clip on steel mesh filters. I did a lot of research into velocity stacks as well as designing and 3D printing my own on the spire, I know for a fact these clip on filters are awful for airflow, they effectively sit over the top of the radiused edge and render it useless, so I've removed those and fitted some foam slip ons. This will do for now, but in future I would like a proper air box on it, and maybe some better stacks as the Weber ones have quite a poor radius to them with no roll back.
Next thing is that when sitting in the car, all I can see is the rev counter. Regardless, on a car like this, I want the vital signs logged. Speaking to Aim, it sounds like I can run an AIM solo 2 DL on the wheel and with a few expander modules I can pick up everything I want, which for now is my aim camera that I took off the spire, water temp, oil pressure, rpm and AFR. It'll be nice to log the AFR as I can plug the laptop in after a session and review the fuelling, which should make life easier with carbs rather than guessing.
I will keep the dash more or less as is, the rev counter is too sexy to lose, the solo 2 will be steering wheel mounted.
https://www.aimtechnologies.com/aim-solo-2-dl/
Scribblings of a mad man figuring out the scmlematic and cable lengths/layout in the car
Other things on the list
Fire extinguisher - easy enough but I'll have to go for gas not foam so I can run a smaller bottle, due to space being at a premium. Just means more money.
Seat belts, these will have to be a custom order and it looks like I'm going to have to make some plates, as the tub just has M6 bolts holes, so I'll have to make some steel plates that bolt to the tub, that the belts can bolt to. No big deal really but just little things like that which add extra unforseen complexity.
Hi
Just a note re the clutch.. you may well find that the weight is lighter with the engine running.. never figured out why that's the case on hewlands but it is for mine and seems to be quite common!
I did my first HSCC meeting in October (an 'Invitation' with my 88 Reynard) and hope we'll be allowed to join in full time this coming season, agree with the other comments, great bunch of people, made very welcome indeed, and the 26 calendar looks great.. I'll give you a wave when you lap me!
Just a note re the clutch.. you may well find that the weight is lighter with the engine running.. never figured out why that's the case on hewlands but it is for mine and seems to be quite common!
I did my first HSCC meeting in October (an 'Invitation' with my 88 Reynard) and hope we'll be allowed to join in full time this coming season, agree with the other comments, great bunch of people, made very welcome indeed, and the 26 calendar looks great.. I'll give you a wave when you lap me!
Jim Spencer said:
Hi
Just a note re the clutch.. you may well find that the weight is lighter with the engine running.. never figured out why that's the case on hewlands but it is for mine and seems to be quite common!
I did my first HSCC meeting in October (an 'Invitation' with my 88 Reynard) and hope we'll be allowed to join in full time this coming season, agree with the other comments, great bunch of people, made very welcome indeed, and the 26 calendar looks great.. I'll give you a wave when you lap me!
That's interesting, I'll leave the clutch alone and see how it feels. What's yours Reynard if it was in invitation? Just a note re the clutch.. you may well find that the weight is lighter with the engine running.. never figured out why that's the case on hewlands but it is for mine and seems to be quite common!
I did my first HSCC meeting in October (an 'Invitation' with my 88 Reynard) and hope we'll be allowed to join in full time this coming season, agree with the other comments, great bunch of people, made very welcome indeed, and the 26 calendar looks great.. I'll give you a wave when you lap me!
Edit: was it the red VW engined car? If so me and my old man had a chat with you about it
Edited by Yazza54 on Friday 28th November 13:08
Hi
Yes that's it, Reynard 883.. it's now on it's way to being considerably less 'cosmetically challenged' than it was.
We got invited along as there's quite a lot of interest in the 80's stuff that, currently, has very few places we can race, so hoping that's given the green light and we'll be along too (this time with some decent tyres.. understeer in Oct was epic!)
Yes that's it, Reynard 883.. it's now on it's way to being considerably less 'cosmetically challenged' than it was.
We got invited along as there's quite a lot of interest in the 80's stuff that, currently, has very few places we can race, so hoping that's given the green light and we'll be along too (this time with some decent tyres.. understeer in Oct was epic!)
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