Track day car, ABS or no ABS?
Discussion
Just thought I would put this on here and ask the question has anyone disabled ABS on their track day car?
Question brought on by personal experience and after many years tracking TVR‘s which don’t have ABS.
Given the odd situation where for instance you lose the back end on a corner, not recoverable, I would slam on the anchors and lock all four wheels. The car would then carry on in the same trajectory as it was before losing the backend. This would mean for instance, tail hung out at let’s say 45°, apply brakes and car would still travel in the same direction slowing down for instant recovery or coming to a halt depending upon angle of car. After about 15 years with TVR‘s this has only happened a handful of times and usually recovered instantly as the car slows, most of the time just engaging second as the car slows and carrying on to the pits as per track day in instructions.
Now, put yourself in the same position with ABS, car slews around to say 45° angle, apply brakes, tyres grip and fire the car off in the direction that it is pointing which given this scenario would be infield! When this happened to me, (Porsche Boxster with track tyres) in the split second I had to think about it and about 50–60 mph, the car had crossed the width of the track, probably about 30 foot, not a wide track and put me infield!
My point is, as excellent as ABS is in the wet and for general use on roads, it doesn’t do you any favours, (apart from on a wet track) on a race track. Apparently, race cars do not have ABS as far as I’m aware.
This ABS scenario can be seen on many YouTube videos on car fails where people accelerate in high-powered cars, tail starts wagging, they apply the brakes and the car shoots off to the left or right and crashes. Now I know why!
Back to the question, has anyone disconnected their ABS for track use?
Question brought on by personal experience and after many years tracking TVR‘s which don’t have ABS.
Given the odd situation where for instance you lose the back end on a corner, not recoverable, I would slam on the anchors and lock all four wheels. The car would then carry on in the same trajectory as it was before losing the backend. This would mean for instance, tail hung out at let’s say 45°, apply brakes and car would still travel in the same direction slowing down for instant recovery or coming to a halt depending upon angle of car. After about 15 years with TVR‘s this has only happened a handful of times and usually recovered instantly as the car slows, most of the time just engaging second as the car slows and carrying on to the pits as per track day in instructions.
Now, put yourself in the same position with ABS, car slews around to say 45° angle, apply brakes, tyres grip and fire the car off in the direction that it is pointing which given this scenario would be infield! When this happened to me, (Porsche Boxster with track tyres) in the split second I had to think about it and about 50–60 mph, the car had crossed the width of the track, probably about 30 foot, not a wide track and put me infield!
My point is, as excellent as ABS is in the wet and for general use on roads, it doesn’t do you any favours, (apart from on a wet track) on a race track. Apparently, race cars do not have ABS as far as I’m aware.
This ABS scenario can be seen on many YouTube videos on car fails where people accelerate in high-powered cars, tail starts wagging, they apply the brakes and the car shoots off to the left or right and crashes. Now I know why!
Back to the question, has anyone disconnected their ABS for track use?
phazed said:
Apparently, race cars do not have ABS as far as I m aware.
I can't answer your question about anyone disconnecting their ABS for track, but there are many race cars that do have ABS - those in the GT world do for example. I drove a Audi R8 V10 GT3 Evo II at Silverstone and span it (f#ck, f#ck, f#ck, f#ck, f#ck, f#ck, f#ck, f#ck, phew) and did the normal hit the brakes and it didn't do anything different from all the non-ABS race cars I have spun!For me it was more than disconcerting! I was just exiting the easy corner after Oggies at speed when the offside back wheel just left the track and of course the rest is history!
Just had a little read using chat. Formula One don’t allow ABS but it is used in several race series although competition ABS is completely different and adjustable, apparently.
My point is, at track day level in this situation that I described in the dry, it does not seem to be a help.
ABS in the rain of course is completely desirable as is traction control. How many heart stopping moments have I had in the rain in a TVR without ABS! Ditto without traction in a 400 BHP car weighing one ton!
Just had a little read using chat. Formula One don’t allow ABS but it is used in several race series although competition ABS is completely different and adjustable, apparently.
My point is, at track day level in this situation that I described in the dry, it does not seem to be a help.
ABS in the rain of course is completely desirable as is traction control. How many heart stopping moments have I had in the rain in a TVR without ABS! Ditto without traction in a 400 BHP car weighing one ton!
GT cars will have motorsport ABS systems - typically they'll use trigger wheels with 2x the sensor pings (for better resolution) and have adjustable levels.
GT3 cars all have ABS, right up to the endurance LMGT3 cars. F1 and Hypercars (for example) don't have it to notionally challenge the pro drivers more, but the hypercars have traction control.
I don't really follow the scenario where you think ABS leads to a loss of control in a spin recovery, but I'm probably not reading it right. I keep the ABS on in my track car - it never interferes in normal braking, but it might help in a slippery situation with unexpected rain/track contamination. In theory if you were feeling flash you could have a wet/dry switch in the car which enables/disables the ABS unit and changes your throttle map.
GT3 cars all have ABS, right up to the endurance LMGT3 cars. F1 and Hypercars (for example) don't have it to notionally challenge the pro drivers more, but the hypercars have traction control.
I don't really follow the scenario where you think ABS leads to a loss of control in a spin recovery, but I'm probably not reading it right. I keep the ABS on in my track car - it never interferes in normal braking, but it might help in a slippery situation with unexpected rain/track contamination. In theory if you were feeling flash you could have a wet/dry switch in the car which enables/disables the ABS unit and changes your throttle map.
Our little Clio 172 has got an intermittent problem with the steering angle sensor which will occasionally disable the ABS until you reset it.
I've only ever spun that car when the ABS light has been on, I now just pull straight back in and reset it whenever it does it.
I am a ham fisted oaf with no fear and no talent though
I've only ever spun that car when the ABS light has been on, I now just pull straight back in and reset it whenever it does it.
I am a ham fisted oaf with no fear and no talent though
s p a c e m a n said:
Our little Clio 172 has got an intermittent problem with the steering angle sensor which will occasionally disable the ABS until you reset it.
I've only ever spun that car when the ABS light has been on, I now just pull straight back in and reset it whenever it does it.
I am a ham fisted oaf with no fear and no talent though
Presumably the Clio also has stability control that is disabled as well by the same fault? Might explain the spin. I've only ever spun that car when the ABS light has been on, I now just pull straight back in and reset it whenever it does it.
I am a ham fisted oaf with no fear and no talent though
Perhaps im ignorant, but I've never had the desire to turn ABS off in any car I've taken on track.
I did once have an ABS system failure which resulted in a high speed 360 spin when the rears locked whilst braking... that wasn't fun.
So no, I don't think I'd ever willingly turn off ABS, in the 60 odd trackdays I've done now.
I did once have an ABS system failure which resulted in a high speed 360 spin when the rears locked whilst braking... that wasn't fun.
So no, I don't think I'd ever willingly turn off ABS, in the 60 odd trackdays I've done now.
It's not uncommon to turn off stability systems on track to avoid overheating and chewing the rear brakes. Realise that's not ABS as such.
I expect it depends how good the ABS is if it's worth turning off? Heard mention of 'ice-mode' where the ABS s
ts itself on track and doesn't provide any braking for certain cars and bikes.
I expect it depends how good the ABS is if it's worth turning off? Heard mention of 'ice-mode' where the ABS s
ts itself on track and doesn't provide any braking for certain cars and bikes.To the OP, I don't think that what you are describing is being caused by the ABS.
ABS is disabled on some race cars because it can be faster without it. You can brake harder (to the very limit of the tyres grip) without the ABS effectively triggering too early and pumping the brake (thus reducing the amount of braking you actually have).
I wonder whether this was just a weight transfer thing, which is what I always assumed was happening with those YouTube crashes. Back end goes a bit too loose, they suddenly lift off or brake, weight gets thrown forward, front wheels grip, car gets pinged off into the scenery. I have done similar in my race car without ABS (twice it has worked out favourably and I have done a 180 one way then a 180 the other, and ended up facing the same way as I was before I screwed it up)
ABS is disabled on some race cars because it can be faster without it. You can brake harder (to the very limit of the tyres grip) without the ABS effectively triggering too early and pumping the brake (thus reducing the amount of braking you actually have).
I wonder whether this was just a weight transfer thing, which is what I always assumed was happening with those YouTube crashes. Back end goes a bit too loose, they suddenly lift off or brake, weight gets thrown forward, front wheels grip, car gets pinged off into the scenery. I have done similar in my race car without ABS (twice it has worked out favourably and I have done a 180 one way then a 180 the other, and ended up facing the same way as I was before I screwed it up)
I did have stability turned off, never been a problem before and I enjoy a little wiggle on corners. On this particular occasion, I was pretty much on it and the car was drifting out of every corner as you would expect on hot track tyres. Unfortunately, I let the car drift a little bit too much until the rear offside tyre left the track, car instantly slewed around by about 45° or so, I hit the brakes expecting to stay half on the track and continue the trajectory, tyres dug in with the ABS not allowing them to lock up and shot the car across quite a narrow section of track infield, (hell of a surprise). As guys will know who have experienced this, it all happens in a split second. From when I applied the brakes to reaching the other side of the track seemed barely more than a second.
Yes, I know I shouldn’t have let this happen but even with in the region of 100 track days under my belt, the occasional error occurs.
Photograph for clarity, you can see where the car leaves the track briefly and I immediately apply the brakes hard. Amazingly there are tyre marks considering the ABS was doing its job but I guess with hot sticky tyres they leave a little rubber even with ABS activated.
Yes, I know I shouldn’t have let this happen but even with in the region of 100 track days under my belt, the occasional error occurs.
Photograph for clarity, you can see where the car leaves the track briefly and I immediately apply the brakes hard. Amazingly there are tyre marks considering the ABS was doing its job but I guess with hot sticky tyres they leave a little rubber even with ABS activated.
s p a c e m a n said:
Our little Clio 172 has got an intermittent problem with the steering angle sensor which will occasionally disable the ABS until you reset it.
I've only ever spun that car when the ABS light has been on, I now just pull straight back in and reset it whenever it does it.
I am a ham fisted oaf with no fear and no talent though
In my experience with Clio 182's, when there's an ABS fault it can result in the brake bias going 50/50 which isn't a good time! I've only ever spun that car when the ABS light has been on, I now just pull straight back in and reset it whenever it does it.
I am a ham fisted oaf with no fear and no talent though
stef1808 said:
A car with all 4 locked up can still bite and spear you out sideways but with much more speed and less control than an abs car would. Race cars use abs for a reason.
That is the point, four locked up Wheels would have projected the car in line with the track which is where the car was going in the first place. Physics takes over, the car can’t go any other way. It was only with grip induced by not allowing the wheels to be locked up at the car regained grip and projected forward. You may ask why I didn’t steer out of it if the wheels had grip? Believe me that short distance across the track was covered in Possibly a second at the speed the car was going.Of course the answer is not to make that mistake in the first place but we all know these incidences can happen. My point was that if the car did not have ABS the car would have taken a different direction. I certainly appreciate ABS on the road and certainly when I’ve done wet track days, ABS is a boon!
phazed said:
Photograph for clarity, you can see where the car leaves the track briefly and I immediately apply the brakes hard. Amazingly there are tyre marks considering the ABS was doing its job but I guess with hot sticky tyres they leave a little rubber even with ABS activated.
I suspect from your description & the pic, the tyre rubber on the tarmac is more likely due to sideways slip rather than locked up wheels.I tend to leave it on unless I have an issue. The first time I went to Cadwell in my MX5 I struggled with the abs activating very early on the downhill into Mansfield with the race brake pads I had so I unplugged a speed sensor.
I know on some cars like R53 mini’s if you unplug the abs it throws the brake bias off and makes them very unstable.
I know on some cars like R53 mini’s if you unplug the abs it throws the brake bias off and makes them very unstable.
As usual, the answer here is more complicated than the question.
Different models of car have different levels of intervention and different ways of reacting on track so some cars are absolutely fine, even much improved, with ABS, others do trigger too soon and it can be an issue. On the whole though I would say the latter is rare where ABS is concerned and I think counting on using locked wheels to plot your trajectory away from a barrier after you have already run out of talent is optimistic at best
.
ESP and TCS are more likely to become an annoyance to the extent that some cars are pretty frustrating to drive on track with them engaged.
Certainly plenty of race cars do run ABS and other systems that in many cases are unmodified from their original road versions.
Different models of car have different levels of intervention and different ways of reacting on track so some cars are absolutely fine, even much improved, with ABS, others do trigger too soon and it can be an issue. On the whole though I would say the latter is rare where ABS is concerned and I think counting on using locked wheels to plot your trajectory away from a barrier after you have already run out of talent is optimistic at best
.ESP and TCS are more likely to become an annoyance to the extent that some cars are pretty frustrating to drive on track with them engaged.
Certainly plenty of race cars do run ABS and other systems that in many cases are unmodified from their original road versions.
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