Court Summons Speeding
Discussion
Hi Guys,
I have received a summons to appear in court for allegedly driving at 57 mph on a 30 mph road. The road was a large A road which was 50 mph, it drops to 30 then back to 40 and then ultimately back to 50.
My question is do I need a lawyer? The speed was caught on and LT20/20 Camera, can I ask for evidence before the court hearing. Can I use slippage or movement of the officer arm as basis for an inaccurate reading? On the original letter asking to confirm that I was the driver the officer had made a mistake on the road name, on the summons he has made another mistake on the distance of how far I was at the time he used the LT20/20. Can this be used as my defence to show that the office is incompetent?
Cheers
Sunil
I have received a summons to appear in court for allegedly driving at 57 mph on a 30 mph road. The road was a large A road which was 50 mph, it drops to 30 then back to 40 and then ultimately back to 50.
My question is do I need a lawyer? The speed was caught on and LT20/20 Camera, can I ask for evidence before the court hearing. Can I use slippage or movement of the officer arm as basis for an inaccurate reading? On the original letter asking to confirm that I was the driver the officer had made a mistake on the road name, on the summons he has made another mistake on the distance of how far I was at the time he used the LT20/20. Can this be used as my defence to show that the office is incompetent?
Cheers
Sunil
I’m not sure if you need a lawyer, since you intend to defend your actions I would recommend that you appoint one however. Have you looked at the safe speed website?
Not sure about officers arm moving but you are not supposed to use them around metal objects I believe because the radar gun will possibly pick them up (I suppose there is also the possibility of bounce between objects giving a false reading). The other common mistake made is not having the equipment re-calibrated at regular intervals to ensure accuracy. It’s a funny thing, I remember reading on www.billzilla.org that sometimes fan blades can also give false readings.
Certainly it sounds like this misuses of equipment and wrong location may imply a degree of incompetence, You could have your lawyer bring it up with the prosecution during proceedings.
Good luck!
Not sure about officers arm moving but you are not supposed to use them around metal objects I believe because the radar gun will possibly pick them up (I suppose there is also the possibility of bounce between objects giving a false reading). The other common mistake made is not having the equipment re-calibrated at regular intervals to ensure accuracy. It’s a funny thing, I remember reading on www.billzilla.org that sometimes fan blades can also give false readings.
Certainly it sounds like this misuses of equipment and wrong location may imply a degree of incompetence, You could have your lawyer bring it up with the prosecution during proceedings.
Good luck!
citychap26 said:
Hi Guys,
I have received a summons to appear in court for allegedly driving at 57 mph on a 30 mph road. The road was a large A road which was 50 mph, it drops to 30 then back to 40 and then ultimately back to 50.
My question is do I need a lawyer? The speed was caught on and LT20/20 Camera, can I ask for evidence before the court hearing. Can I use slippage or movement of the officer arm as basis for an inaccurate reading? On the original letter asking to confirm that I was the driver the officer had made a mistake on the road name, on the summons he has made another mistake on the distance of how far I was at the time he used the LT20/20. Can this be used as my defence to show that the office is incompetent?
Cheers
Sunil
My earlier response seems to have dissapeared. As I said if you were in fact doing nearly twice the limit, then t
t springs to mind, you have effectively increased your stopping distance by about 75 metres, a bloody long way. Hopefully they will throw the book at you. (assuming you were in fact doing 57, of course if you were infact only doing 30 then ignore my remarks entirely.....
>> Edited by Vipers on Saturday 8th October 06:46
Vipers said:That’s a little harsh, there are many places where it would probably be safe to do twice the speed limit. Where is that 75 meters from? I seem to remember reading that the Toyota Corolla could stop from 60mph in under 40 meters.
As I said if you were in fact doing nearly twice the limit, then t
speedy_thrills said:
Vipers said:
As I said if you were in fact doing nearly twice the limit, then t
That’s a little harsh, there are many places where it would probably be safe to do twice the speed limit. Where is that 75 meters from? I seem to remember reading that the Toyota Corolla could stop from 60mph in under 40 meters.
Sorry, working out stopping distance from the highway code from memory, forgot to deduct the stopping distance from 30, so the increase would be about 50 metres, not that I am doubting the stopping distance of a Toyota Corolla, but dont forget about the "Thinking distance" did the figure of 40 metres include that, and does the term "under 40 metres" just mean 39.9, no doubt on a good road surface, good tyres good brakes etc etc. Even so 40 metres from 60 is still an increase of 17 metres over the suggested distance in the highway code for a vehicle travelling at 30, and when your crossing the road, the difference between life and death.
We all have opinions of course, but harsh! if its 30 it dont mean 57 does it, if we were all left to judge exactly where and when it was safe to exceed the speed limit, where would we be, anyway 30 does sort indicate a built up area doesnt it? and that being the case how can you justify 57 any time in a built up area, if I was coming to a junction in a built up area, I would not expect someone to zip past at nearly 60 mph, would you? and imagine coming to a pedestrian crossing, would they be able to stop in time? cars pulling out of junctions etc, sorry but I personally dont think its harsh at all.
If you pace out 50 metres on the road, you will I am sure appreciate just how far that is!
>> Edited by Vipers on Saturday 8th October 08:00
Bearing in mind that the intention of a NOIP is to give an idea of an offence to which the driver is to be accused and to guard against being taken unawares with a test of validity whether the driver is anyway prejudiced in his defence by the defect.
Where an error in a NOIP is as to the place, it is a question of fact and degree (decision of the Mags) whether a driver had been misled and that a mis-statement is not ipso facto fatal if the driver has not been misled by the mis-statement. Shield v Crighton [1974]
By pleading Not Guilty then CPS are by law required to disclose their evidence.
From what is stated one should consider putting all facts before a Solicitor well versed in Traffic Law to see if he can come up with something that can disprove beyond reasonable doubt.
dvd
Where an error in a NOIP is as to the place, it is a question of fact and degree (decision of the Mags) whether a driver had been misled and that a mis-statement is not ipso facto fatal if the driver has not been misled by the mis-statement. Shield v Crighton [1974]
By pleading Not Guilty then CPS are by law required to disclose their evidence.
From what is stated one should consider putting all facts before a Solicitor well versed in Traffic Law to see if he can come up with something that can disprove beyond reasonable doubt.
dvd
speedy_thrills said:The LTI20/20 is a laser based speed meter, not radar.
Not sure about officers arm moving but you are not supposed to use them around metal objects I believe because the radar gun will possibly pick them up (I suppose there is also the possibility of bounce between objects giving a false reading). The other common mistake made is not having the equipment re-calibrated at regular intervals to ensure accuracy. It’s a funny thing, I remember reading on www.billzilla.org that sometimes fan blades can also give false readings.
Certainly it sounds like this misuses of equipment and wrong location may imply a degree of incompetence, You could have your lawyer bring it up with the prosecution during proceedings.
Good luck!
Rotating fan blades will not fool a laser based speed meter into giving a false speed-reading.
I’m afraid your other comments are also invalid in this context.
Richard C said:
the higway code stopping distances are completely unrealistic - most cars stop in half the distance and thinking distance is a generous allowance for most drivers too.
Still dont see your points above as an excuse to drive at 57 in a built up area..... do you?
Thinking distance, now thats a good one, not to be nitpicking, but how many clowns do we all see on the phone, one hand on the wheel, now are they giving it 100% concentration.
But I agree the figures are probably not so accurate for "most" drivers, eitherway, at nearly twice the speed limit, does increase the stopping distance by quite a long way, so personally I see no excuse whatsoever for this.
>> Edited by Vipers on Saturday 8th October 10:17
citychap26 said:
Hi Guys,
I have received a summons to appear in court for allegedly driving at 57 mph on a 30 mph road. The road was a large A road which was 50 mph, it drops to 30 then back to 40 and then ultimately back to 50.
My question is do I need a lawyer? The speed was caught on and LT20/20 Camera, can I ask for evidence before the court hearing. Can I use slippage or movement of the officer arm as basis for an inaccurate reading? On the original letter asking to confirm that I was the driver the officer had made a mistake on the road name, on the summons he has made another mistake on the distance of how far I was at the time he used the LT20/20. Can this be used as my defence to show that the office is incompetent?
Cheers
Sunil
You can ask for the evidence before the court hearing (7 days before the case), the Police must supply it.
It's nigh on impossible for a MOP to prove that slip occurred (even if slip did occur). If you were speeding, then you should take it like a man.
An incorrect road name or other minor slip of the pen should not halt the prosecution process (that’s an acceptable form of slip).
However, an incorrect distance reading is another matter as this is something that must be correct. Make sure the following is applied correctly (get the full video evidence). The ACPO Code of Practice states:
The device must be currently within its calibration period.
Calibration verification is carried out:
(a) By the device itself during its built-in tests upon being switched 'on'
(b) During and as part of the start and end of tour checks. A record of these checks will be made (i.e. in pocket note book).
Should a calibration defect arise, the device must be returned to the manufacturer or certified authorised agent before further use.
The manufacturer shall annually calibrate a speedmeter or his agent and a certificate should be issued to this effect and held by the police. A visible sticker showing the date of calibration should be fixed to the meter.
The type-approval process acknowledges the accuracy of the device together with its self-checking systems. In that respect, it is vital that at the start and conclusion of a tour of duty, all laser devices are checked in accordance with the manufacturer’s instructions, and will include alignment and distance checks.
These checks will be recorded and noted as part of the evidence as to the integrity of the machine and the data so produced. Additionally, at each speed detection site, the officer will note that, when switched on, the device self-checked and operated correctly.
Where the operating design of the laser is such that a static distance check cannot be carried out the device must be checked against a calibrated speedometer by a drive through during the tour of duty during which the device is used.
The use of a patrol car to drive through each site to check the accuracy of the device is no longer required.
Vipers said:
the higway code stopping distances are completely unrealistic - most cars stop in half the distance and thinking distance is a generous allowance for most drivers too.
Still dont see your points above as an excuse to drive at 57 in a built up area..... do you?
Thinking distance, now thats a good one, not to be nitpicking, but how many clowns do we all see on the phone, one hand on the wheel, now are they giving it 100% concentration
It wasn't a built up area, to quote the original post, it's a large A road. More than likely it was previously an NSL and designed as such. 57 is perfectly safe on such a road.
Vipers said:The real issue is whether you can stop safely in the distance you can see and reasonably expect to be clear.
the higway code stopping distances are completely unrealistic - most cars stop in half the distance and thinking distance is a generous allowance for most drivers too.
Still dont see your points above as an excuse to drive at 57 in a built up area..... do you?
Thinking distance, now thats a good one, not to be nitpicking, but how many clowns do we all see on the phone, one hand on the wheel, now are they giving it 100% concentration
Some 30 limits are more realistic than others.
There is one near me on which I have no concern to doing over 70 (as long as I scrub off the excess speed when appropriate).
The road I refer to is a dual carriageway, with a central reservation construction, lane 1 used exclusively as a bus lane (rarely used), there are deep grass embankments on either side, with a large continuous fence to prevent pedestrians from even reaching the road (no pavements), throughout the length of this stretch. It can be perfectly safe to well and truly exceed the speed limit there.
Well lads, I am just gobsmacked at how many of you dream up all the excuses/reasons under the sun to totally ignore speed limits..............
Well over 70 in 30, whatever next........ you may not, and obviously do not agree with speed limits, but if you get caught, you just have to pay for it, no use bitching about it afterwards.
God forbid your ever the grieving father of a child knocked down and killed by someone exceeding said limits by up to 100%, still I am sure you will agree with the driver that it was OK, and probably your child was out of order, sorry if I am getting angry, not aimed at any person in particular, but I just dont understand the mentality of just totally ignoring speed limits......I can see some choice comments coming my way now, but hey, I have had my say, and thats what forums are for.
Well over 70 in 30, whatever next........ you may not, and obviously do not agree with speed limits, but if you get caught, you just have to pay for it, no use bitching about it afterwards.
God forbid your ever the grieving father of a child knocked down and killed by someone exceeding said limits by up to 100%, still I am sure you will agree with the driver that it was OK, and probably your child was out of order, sorry if I am getting angry, not aimed at any person in particular, but I just dont understand the mentality of just totally ignoring speed limits......I can see some choice comments coming my way now, but hey, I have had my say, and thats what forums are for.
The REAL issue is that the LEGAL speed limit is 30mph! Are you saying it is really up to us to just ignore the law in this way and if so which laws are you restricting this to. Can I say that I murdered someone because I decided it was OK to break that law. I think not! A more sensible course of action would be to obey the law and campaign to have the speed limit raised if it is so safe that should not be a major problem. It is the actions of careless law breakers that are leading to the scamera rise and the nanny state introduction of black boxes in cars.
Vipers said:Misquote!
Well over 70 in 30
Vipers said:I repeat: the real issue is whether you can stop safely in the distance you can see and reasonably expect to be clear.
God forbid your ever the grieving father of a child knocked down and killed by someone exceeding said limits by up to 100%
Yet the parents escape punishment when their child is knocked down and killed by a car at a speed within the (30/20) limit? How can that possibly be considering that fundamentally it’s their responsibility to educate their offspring to the dangers of this world?
Don’t misunderstand me, I’m all for driving at a snails pace in built up areas, but the road I was referring to really is more like a short motorway in every sense of the word so it’s a worthy exception to the rule.
Vipers said:Same here
I can see some choice comments coming my way now, but hey, I have had my say, and thats what forums are for.
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