Electrics: Was this ever acceptable?

[LennyM1984]

I was over at my sister's house this weekend and she asked me to replace a ceiling rose (it was manky and the light cord was not insulated).

This is what I found...



Every single one of the wires had copper showing where they entered the terminal, the earth was twisted together and stuffed into the ceiling, and the cord (as mentioned) was just two bare wires (not insulation around the outside). There were signs that it had been arcing...

I've redone it all properly but my question is, was this ever acceptable (house is from the 70s) or was this done by an amateur? It feels as though this would always have been pretty bad?

There's a few other bits and pieces they want me to do (no new circuits, just replacing existing switches, replacing sockets etc) and I'm now a bit worried what else I might find...

Edited by LennyM1984 on Sunday 7th December 15:29

[simon_harris]

When we re-wired our last house I found a twin and earth going from the main fuse box to the extension fuse box laid down along the kitchen wall, about two thirds of the way down - right as it happens under the main stop cock - there was a baker light junction box because the wire wasn t long enough. It needed to go another 5-6 meters

Edited by simon_harris on Sunday 7th December 10:12

[Vsix and Vtec]

There's always been varying levels of competence in the trades, but the description of how the earth was treated suggests that it was an amateur to me. Especially when there was an empty terminal there on the rose to use.

[Mr Pointy]

It's not great but I've seen much worse posted on here. Shoving the earths up into the void at least reduced the number of wires stuffed into the cieling rose & there was a time when it wasn't a requirement to even run an earth in the lighting circuit. I'm not sure what you mean about the cord being bare wires as it looks like there's a layer of clear insulation on them.

[Simpo Two]

Mr Pointy said:

I'm not sure what you mean about the cord being bare wires as it looks like there's a layer of clear insulation on them.

Agreed; I think he was expecting them still to be joined by the outer sleeving, but that would just get in the way in such a small space.

[GT6k]

Nothing exceptional. 1. They used a rose, 2) they used the terminal blocks, 3, They used proper cabling. To get a pri mention they would have old bell wire twisted together with selotape over it and hung from a cup hook in the ceiling.

[megaphone]

All looks pretty standard for a ceiling rose. Not sure why they didn't use the earth terminal that's available, although many lighting circuits of that era didn't use cable with an earth as it wasn't really necessary. The single insulated pendant cable was common in the 50/60/70s.

Edited by megaphone on Sunday 7th December 15:17

[LennyM1984]

Here were my concerns:

1. there was no sheath around the wires leading to the bulb holder (not the end of the world I admit) but the insulation had become damaged over the years and had become exposed

2. The wires going into each terminal have a considerable amount of exposed copper and had been arcing (hard to see in the photo because I had bent it out of the way but the exposed copper of one of the lives was almost touching the exposed copper of the neutral

3. Earthing not in the terminal block

4. No earth sheath (again not the end of the world)

5. No identification of the switched live (again, not dangerous but not exactly good practice)

ETA: based on the comments, perhaps I am just being a bit anal. My dad was an electronics engineer so I was also taught to be methodical

Edited by LennyM1984 on Sunday 7th December 14:58

Edited by LennyM1984 on Sunday 7th December 15:08

[essayer]

There’s much worse out there

If it’s been arcing and not tripped a RCD I’d get a sparks in to check that

[JoshSm]

LennyM1984 said:

Here were my concerns:

3. Earthing not in the terminal block

4. No earth sheath (again not the end of the world)

Not sure why you'd expect either of those on an old install that no-one has updated in decades. Earth sheath is a relatively new thing and no-one used to crowd the rose by using the terminal (assuming one existed) if they could just use a block and stuff it out of the way - there's no particular benefit in using the one on the rose beyond access/visibility.

If you're fiddling and you're competent you can improve it but it's not particularly bad compared to lots out there. Nothing looks melted for a start.

[LennyM1984]

JoshSm said:

Not sure why you'd expect either of those on an old install that no-one has updated in decades.

That was why I was asking whether this was acceptable "back in the day." I'm afraid that I wasn't alive in the 1970s let alone playing with domestic electrics

[Panamax]

It used to be common for earth wires to be twisted together and then a sort of small porcelain screw-on insulator would screw over the twisted wires, using the twist as the thread. There may have been one that somebody's lost in the past.

Something more or less along these lines,
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Qizpcer-wire-caps/dp/B0DD...

[JoshSm]

Panamax said:

It used to be common for earth wires to be twisted together and then a sort of small porcelain screw-on insulator would screw over the twisted wires, using the twist as the thread. There may have been one that somebody's lost in the past.

Something more or less along these lines,
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Qizpcer-wire-caps/dp/B0DD...

Hope no one is using those.

I found an old ceramic version in the garden, looked it up from the name on it, turned out the things were banned in something like 1970 which gives a clue about how safe they weren't.

[LordLoveLength]

JoshSm said:

Hope no one is using those.

I found an old ceramic version in the garden, looked it up from the name on it, turned out the things were banned in something like 1970 which gives a clue about how safe they weren't.

Wire nuts - still widely used in the US, where they have a real downer on wagos for some reason
I think there have been a lot of fake wago type connectors and incorrectly rated ones used, but they have an irrational hatred of them, but wire nuts, just fine!

[Sheepshanks]

JoshSm said:

LennyM1984 said:

Here were my concerns:

3. Earthing not in the terminal block

4. No earth sheath (again not the end of the world)

Not sure why you'd expect either of those on an old install that no-one has updated in decades. Earth sheath is a relatively new thing and no-one used to crowd the rose by using the terminal (assuming one existed) if they could just use a block and stuff it out of the way - there's no particular benefit in using the one on the rose beyond access/visibility.

If you're fiddling and you're competent you can improve it but it's not particularly bad compared to lots out there. Nothing looks melted for a start.

There was no earth at all in the lighting in our mid-60's house - using an earth in lighting only came in around that time.

I (as a DIYer) can't recall seeing a ceiling rose with an earth terminal before - sometimes the earths are snipped off or, if you're lucky, tucked into the ceiling. The bare copper showing doesn't bother me - what's going to happen? It's better than trapping the insulation in the screw.

[bobtail4x4]

and at least once a week someone oh here asks why they cant do their own electrics

[Rough101]

bobtail4x4 said:

and at least once a week someone oh here asks why they cant do their own electrics

I was getting bored with abuse for suggesting that sometimes you don’t DIY some things electrically, when it’s plain that the person in question can’t cope

[Simpo Two]

LennyM1984 said:

That was why I was asking whether this was acceptable "back in the day."

It's lasted 50 years so I would say yes. Besides, there's nothing you can do about it so I would forget it and move on to something more important.

[Sheepshanks]

Looking at it zoomed in, there is too much bare copper especially at the edges of each block. Was the right hand drop wire not hooked around the retainer?

[Panamax]

What always seems curious to me about lighting is the black wire that's "live". I tend to add a bit of red insulating tape to make it more obvious.

You'd think there'd be a dedicated form of T&E with two reds in it, or something.