(Pseudo)Relative living in (Scottish) willed house rent free
Discussion
A family member has "inherited" something of a difficult situation...
Following the death of their father some 15 or so years ago, the family member's mother moved in a new partner to the family home who lived on the premises rent free. The mother passed away over a year ago leaving the property to her children to inherit on the condition that the new partner could live there for an undetermined period as long as they lived alone and and didn't co-habit. That's about as much as the will says from what I've seen-it looks like something fairly basic akin to a free online service.
On discussions with the mother prior to death, she stated her wishes that the partner be allowed to grieve and move on after short but undetermined period of time. All fair enough if a little open to... interpretation.
Following Confirmation (Scottish version of probate) the property is now in limbo with the children unable to put the house in their name but as executors of the will, solely responsible for the upkeep of the property. Current inhabitant has no tenancy, no life rent, just the wording of the will. They are currently paying as far as I know the utilities on the property.
Following numerous, tentative meetings with the inhabitant over the previous few months it is now clear they don't intend on leaving the property any time soon. Inhabitant has their own children and house which is inhabited by their ex-spouse, is thought to be liquid financially and a pensioner.
All was on the surface, open and pleasant but recently the accusations have started, likely spurred on by questions about what any future plans may be.
For the children, it is now becoming something of a financial burden and a serious worry. There were no other funds left in the estate to cover any costs of the upkeep, they've been essentially left with a financial risk in that should anything go wrong-they are on the hook.
We're talking about a relatively expensive older property and (adult) children who aren't able to take on the financial responsibility of such a property in addition to their own, one of whom is staring down the barrel of job loss. Never mind the upset that accusations have caused, there is also a feeling of not being able to move on and grieve what was an obviously distressing time.
Despite the semantics of it all, being the family contact who "knows stuff" I've been tasked with finding out how things can move forward-it seems from a bit of a google it's a very rare and perculiar situation to find themselves in. Anyone have any form of advice or experience on such matters?
Following the death of their father some 15 or so years ago, the family member's mother moved in a new partner to the family home who lived on the premises rent free. The mother passed away over a year ago leaving the property to her children to inherit on the condition that the new partner could live there for an undetermined period as long as they lived alone and and didn't co-habit. That's about as much as the will says from what I've seen-it looks like something fairly basic akin to a free online service.
On discussions with the mother prior to death, she stated her wishes that the partner be allowed to grieve and move on after short but undetermined period of time. All fair enough if a little open to... interpretation.
Following Confirmation (Scottish version of probate) the property is now in limbo with the children unable to put the house in their name but as executors of the will, solely responsible for the upkeep of the property. Current inhabitant has no tenancy, no life rent, just the wording of the will. They are currently paying as far as I know the utilities on the property.
Following numerous, tentative meetings with the inhabitant over the previous few months it is now clear they don't intend on leaving the property any time soon. Inhabitant has their own children and house which is inhabited by their ex-spouse, is thought to be liquid financially and a pensioner.
All was on the surface, open and pleasant but recently the accusations have started, likely spurred on by questions about what any future plans may be.
For the children, it is now becoming something of a financial burden and a serious worry. There were no other funds left in the estate to cover any costs of the upkeep, they've been essentially left with a financial risk in that should anything go wrong-they are on the hook.
We're talking about a relatively expensive older property and (adult) children who aren't able to take on the financial responsibility of such a property in addition to their own, one of whom is staring down the barrel of job loss. Never mind the upset that accusations have caused, there is also a feeling of not being able to move on and grieve what was an obviously distressing time.
Despite the semantics of it all, being the family contact who "knows stuff" I've been tasked with finding out how things can move forward-it seems from a bit of a google it's a very rare and perculiar situation to find themselves in. Anyone have any form of advice or experience on such matters?
PRO5T said:
...it's a very rare and perculiar situation to find themselves in.
It may seem to be a very rare and peculiar situation to a lay person, but I doubt it would be to a solicitor. People dying and leaving a partner in a property who isn't related to the beneficiaries must be fairly common these days.trevalvole said:
It may seem to be a very rare and peculiar situation to a lay person, but I doubt it would be to a solicitor. People dying and leaving a partner in a property who isn't related to the beneficiaries must be fairly common these days.
You’d hope so, albeit the solicitors who were contacted regarding the matter didn’t seem to be up for it. It being a case of do nothing and suck up the awful situation you’ve been left in or go nuclear.I’d have rather thought that some form of mediation between the parties would be possible where both make some compromises or commitments that if not leaving everyone happy, at least put everyone’s minds at ease.
As always, these situations become emotiionally charged. Him presumably because he thinks his ex partners children want him out and them because they think he wants a free ride and is going against their mothers wishes
nikaiyo2 said:
If by family member who "knows stuff" you mean family member who is a solicitor specializing wills & probate, my advice would be seek out a solicitor who specializes in wills and probate.
No I'm the family member who is most likely relied upon to “just ask Prost-he’ll know what he’s on about” (not always a given if PH is used as evidence!)Decky_Q said:
No mention of exclusive use of the property so start moving tenants in, put electric on a prepay system, and cut the water off, if he wants water he can sign up for the bill.
At present he is paying the utilities. As the children are not legal owners of the property (merely executors of the will) I have no idea what they can impose on the property whether that be cohabiters or changes to utilities. I think the current situation while he lives there is the house is permanently in probate (confirmation in Scotland) until he leaves and they can take legal ownership.What does the will say? Ignore the mothers wishes, unless it's written down as part of the will then it has no legal standing.
If the will doesn't mention the new partner, then you should go to the partner and have a frank conversation with them.
That conversation needs to revolve around what the will says, and what the mother wanted.
Tell them that you'd be happy to put an agreement in place where they can stay there for x years as long as they assume responsibility for the bills and agree a tenancy that ties that up legally. That's the carrot. The stick is that if they won't agree to that, then you will have to revert back to the will and will then seek possession through the courts and sell the property.
You could also make them an offer to purchase the property, at a discount to reflect the mothers wishes etc.
If the will doesn't mention the new partner, then you should go to the partner and have a frank conversation with them.
That conversation needs to revolve around what the will says, and what the mother wanted.
Tell them that you'd be happy to put an agreement in place where they can stay there for x years as long as they assume responsibility for the bills and agree a tenancy that ties that up legally. That's the carrot. The stick is that if they won't agree to that, then you will have to revert back to the will and will then seek possession through the courts and sell the property.
You could also make them an offer to purchase the property, at a discount to reflect the mothers wishes etc.
This is based on a similar setup I have as executor but in the England.
If it s stated in the will he can live there rent free but no cohabit then he is not a tenant but he has a license to occupy as granted by the will.
It gives less rights than an actual tenancy agreement and you should be mindful of what you write to him in case of inadvertently granting extra rights.
Under licence to occupy, he is bound by the terms of the will. If it didn’t say he was down for the upkeep of the property and the kids are managing the bills then they need to get a handle quickly.
I’m not a lawyer and don’t know north of the border but the fact he is occupying under licence does not affect who owns the house, they can move the house into their name, I imagine it has either been passed to them directly or was there foresight to setup trusts?
In the UK as trustees they could go to the courts to seek guidance on actions, e.g. notice to vacate, render the trust insolvent (if a trust they should be paying bills from the trust as I am, and when it is depleted, absent the occupier paying, the trust must sell the house).
We could maybe do with a little more clarity on the ownership structure in the will.
Ours ended up structured as a distribution fund for the cash (gone), and a trust for the house.
It s still not ideal but the will I inherited setup the partner as paying,
- all maintenance outgoing,
- insuring the property on behalf of the trustees
- living rent free
The property trust has no cash as the distribution fund has gone out. It s about silly but in four years time the annual Gas Safety check will render the estate insolvent.
It feels like £300 with a trust/probate solicitor is your best next move, you may be able to arrange a better term of licence to occupy or something.
Best of luck.
If it s stated in the will he can live there rent free but no cohabit then he is not a tenant but he has a license to occupy as granted by the will.
It gives less rights than an actual tenancy agreement and you should be mindful of what you write to him in case of inadvertently granting extra rights.
Under licence to occupy, he is bound by the terms of the will. If it didn’t say he was down for the upkeep of the property and the kids are managing the bills then they need to get a handle quickly.
I’m not a lawyer and don’t know north of the border but the fact he is occupying under licence does not affect who owns the house, they can move the house into their name, I imagine it has either been passed to them directly or was there foresight to setup trusts?
In the UK as trustees they could go to the courts to seek guidance on actions, e.g. notice to vacate, render the trust insolvent (if a trust they should be paying bills from the trust as I am, and when it is depleted, absent the occupier paying, the trust must sell the house).
We could maybe do with a little more clarity on the ownership structure in the will.
Ours ended up structured as a distribution fund for the cash (gone), and a trust for the house.
It s still not ideal but the will I inherited setup the partner as paying,
- all maintenance outgoing,
- insuring the property on behalf of the trustees
- living rent free
The property trust has no cash as the distribution fund has gone out. It s about silly but in four years time the annual Gas Safety check will render the estate insolvent.
It feels like £300 with a trust/probate solicitor is your best next move, you may be able to arrange a better term of licence to occupy or something.
Best of luck.
nikaiyo2 said:
If by family member who "knows stuff" you mean family member who is a solicitor specializing wills & probate, my advice would be seek out a solicitor who specializes in wills and probate.
This is the only answer that you / they need. They might not like the answer, but whatever the specialist solicitor explains to them is going to be based on reality and any solutions will be explained along with the risks and costs associated with it. Everybody else is just guessing, or coming up with idiotic illegal ideas, like move some more people in . Someone living in another s house is a minefield even on what seem like the simplest of tenancies, this seems as far from simple as is it s possible to be. The advice will cost some money, but it won t be anywhere near as much as it will cost if the beneficiaries do it wrong. Equally, any legal moves taken to get
The beneficiary thinking they re going to get some money to help them out after the job loss is going to be very disappointed in the short term.
Edited by Opapayer on Tuesday 9th December 18:14
This is very similar to the situation that my father left me and my family in!
Property left to be split 5 ways and right of occupancy to his wife who was responsible for all bills and general upkeep. As trustees we had to provide her with another property if she wanted to move to a smaller property and the, sadly unwritten implication, was that she would indeed move as she wouldn’t be able to afford the upkeep.
4 years after his death, still hadn’t moved and I felt that dads wishes would have been for her to move, release equity to help his 3 grandchildren through university. She had received all his cash, £40k or so, gone through it and was due to get money as part of her divorce settlement which when questioned said she would spend on her kids!
My sister did live with her for a few years but 10 years ago she wanted to move her adult granddaughter in with her which all 5 beneficiaries were opposed to. Through my job, I know many solicitors so was able to take legal advice and a strongly worded letter was sent saying that she could not do that.
Had a few meetings with her and her daughter to try and resolve issue, to no avail and we accept that she won’t move until she either needs to go in a care home or dies. As she is now 75 now and only 10 years older than me, she could outlive me.
In the OP situation, then I would suggest that legal advice taken and that at the very minimum, some form of agreement drawn up so the incumbent is liable for all bills and upkeep of the house. Maybe a properly drawn up legal letter might be the incentive although sadly, if my experience is anything to go by, it won’t make a jot of difference.
He is probably just as selfish as my dad’s widow is!
Good luck but take legal advice taken- it will be money well spent and maybe Scottish law is better than English.
Property left to be split 5 ways and right of occupancy to his wife who was responsible for all bills and general upkeep. As trustees we had to provide her with another property if she wanted to move to a smaller property and the, sadly unwritten implication, was that she would indeed move as she wouldn’t be able to afford the upkeep.
4 years after his death, still hadn’t moved and I felt that dads wishes would have been for her to move, release equity to help his 3 grandchildren through university. She had received all his cash, £40k or so, gone through it and was due to get money as part of her divorce settlement which when questioned said she would spend on her kids!
My sister did live with her for a few years but 10 years ago she wanted to move her adult granddaughter in with her which all 5 beneficiaries were opposed to. Through my job, I know many solicitors so was able to take legal advice and a strongly worded letter was sent saying that she could not do that.
Had a few meetings with her and her daughter to try and resolve issue, to no avail and we accept that she won’t move until she either needs to go in a care home or dies. As she is now 75 now and only 10 years older than me, she could outlive me.
In the OP situation, then I would suggest that legal advice taken and that at the very minimum, some form of agreement drawn up so the incumbent is liable for all bills and upkeep of the house. Maybe a properly drawn up legal letter might be the incentive although sadly, if my experience is anything to go by, it won’t make a jot of difference.
He is probably just as selfish as my dad’s widow is!
Good luck but take legal advice taken- it will be money well spent and maybe Scottish law is better than English.
Nothingofnote said:
This is based on a similar setup I have as executor but in the England…
It feels like £300 with a trust/probate solicitor is your best next move, you may be able to arrange a better term of licence to occupy or something.
Best of luck.
Thanks for the best wishes, I’ll pass it on.It feels like £300 with a trust/probate solicitor is your best next move, you may be able to arrange a better term of licence to occupy or something.
Best of luck.
From what I understand and I’ll be mindful that Scotland could be different…insofar as they’ve explicitly told me they can’t put the house in their name while he occupies it.
Could be a Scottish difference, could be a misunderstanding.
The guy living there seems to be as in your case-he lives rent free, pays the bills but nothing towards the upkeep of the place. Aging septic tank fails, kids pay, house sets on fire, insurance pays, electricity bill comes in, deceased mother’s partner pays.
The will specifically states he can live there as long as he lives by himself-no cohabiting, no remarrying (he’s actually still married to his first wife anyways).
I have asked for the children to ok it with the probate solicitor to speak to me-not that I want to get involved! However, they are relatively young, busy intelligent folk but probably not what they wanted or needed to have to deal with after losing a parent.
I’m the guy who deals (not is a!) property solicitors and conveyancing all the time hence me getting roped in.
Once/if I get a chance to speak to the sols I may get more of idea.
If I had to put finger on what’s started to go wrong, I think the children merely wanted to think “oh he’s a nice old boy he’ll see us right and respect mums wishes” whereas maybe more experienced people could see the problem awaiting once someone gets used to their surroundings and starts thinking “why should I give up this cushy number?”.
SydneyBridge said:
Offer him hard cash to move out in say a month or two, save the hassle of doing anything else
Enough cash for a deposit and couple of months rent
May be cheaper in the long run
Based on what legal position? What impact could this have on any future attempt to get him to leave via legal routes? It’s all well and good coming up with ideas like this, but the knock on effect down the line can be huge and extremely adverse to the homeowner. Unless you’re willing to underwrite the potential downside of an idea like this then it’s best to say nothing. Enough cash for a deposit and couple of months rent
May be cheaper in the long run
Opapayer said:
SydneyBridge said:
Offer him hard cash to move out in say a month or two, save the hassle of doing anything else
Enough cash for a deposit and couple of months rent
May be cheaper in the long run
Based on what legal position? What impact could this have on any future attempt to get him to leave via legal routes? It s all well and good coming up with ideas like this, but the knock on effect down the line can be huge and extremely adverse to the homeowner. Unless you re willing to underwrite the potential downside of an idea like this then it s best to say nothing. Enough cash for a deposit and couple of months rent
May be cheaper in the long run
SydneyBridge said:
Fair enough, he would have to sign something to accept the cash settlement etc and never be seen again
Or he’d refuse and the fact that offer has been made could put the beneficiaries in a very awkward position if they subsequently tried the legal route to remove him. Actions have consequences, often unintended, but consequences nonetheless. Huntsman said:
SydneyBridge said:
Offer him hard cash to move out in say a month or two, save the hassle of doing anything else
Enough cash for a deposit and couple of months rent
May be cheaper in the long run
This. Would be money better spent than a solicitor.Enough cash for a deposit and couple of months rent
May be cheaper in the long run
I've a rough idea of the value of the property (sub £500K), but let's say a pretty conservative estimate on the fair rental market value would be circa £1500 pcm.
He's already had over £20k of "free" rent. How much would this cash offer be? Another £25k, £100k? £200k for ten years? I have no idea of their finances but I suspect even £25k would be out of the question for them.
Huntsman said:
SydneyBridge said:
Offer him hard cash to move out in say a month or two, save the hassle of doing anything else
Enough cash for a deposit and couple of months rent
May be cheaper in the long run
This. Would be money better spent than a solicitor.Enough cash for a deposit and couple of months rent
May be cheaper in the long run
Legal advice here is really the best option, failing that, just waiting until he decides to move out of his own volition or dies.
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