Discussion
It's the Trolleybus dilemma in real life.
If the info gleaned from Stakeknife saved 10 people, is it worth sacrificing one person to get that info? What about if it saved 50 people, or only two?
I'd hate to be in the position where i had to decide, especially knowing that, whichever choice I made people with a different set of experiences and agendas would look back on it and judge me.
If the info gleaned from Stakeknife saved 10 people, is it worth sacrificing one person to get that info? What about if it saved 50 people, or only two?
I'd hate to be in the position where i had to decide, especially knowing that, whichever choice I made people with a different set of experiences and agendas would look back on it and judge me.
Yes totally get that.
If the intelligence prevents a bomb killing 10 innocents means one dies, what do you do. In reality you wouldn't even have that simple choice as it would have been a case of not knowing what you get next on the intelligence vs deaths. Its an awful dilemma.
I guess it depends on the behaviour of SK, was he swept up in all the violence and revelled in it or did he try to keep the deaths down without blowing his cover.
If the intelligence prevents a bomb killing 10 innocents means one dies, what do you do. In reality you wouldn't even have that simple choice as it would have been a case of not knowing what you get next on the intelligence vs deaths. Its an awful dilemma.
I guess it depends on the behaviour of SK, was he swept up in all the violence and revelled in it or did he try to keep the deaths down without blowing his cover.
It is a subject I have for no real reason an interest in.
He was recruited I think after being arrested in the mid 70's then was promoted by the IRA to this unit called the nut job unit, this is where he got most of his info as he was used to interrogate captured IRA members. This was clearly done by the UK govt at the time, but it was rumoured he cost as many lives as he saved, but this is clearly never going to be admitted.
He was also paid very well for doing this, allegedly 80k a year which was a lot of money back then, paid into a Gibraltar account! Was moved to the UK under witness protection, arrested for possession of porn including bestiality and died from several stroke I believe few years ago.
The oddest thing is, his name was even mentioned today by a lawyer present for the families, yet the authorities will STILL not name him. The man doing the enquiry was at pains to point out this was clearly wrong in this case. But Scappaticci did and does have 6 children, possibly the reason.
He was recruited I think after being arrested in the mid 70's then was promoted by the IRA to this unit called the nut job unit, this is where he got most of his info as he was used to interrogate captured IRA members. This was clearly done by the UK govt at the time, but it was rumoured he cost as many lives as he saved, but this is clearly never going to be admitted.
He was also paid very well for doing this, allegedly 80k a year which was a lot of money back then, paid into a Gibraltar account! Was moved to the UK under witness protection, arrested for possession of porn including bestiality and died from several stroke I believe few years ago.
The oddest thing is, his name was even mentioned today by a lawyer present for the families, yet the authorities will STILL not name him. The man doing the enquiry was at pains to point out this was clearly wrong in this case. But Scappaticci did and does have 6 children, possibly the reason.
coldel said:
Just catching up on it on the news
Madness isn't it
That the government effectively allowed deaths to ensure they kept the intelligence flowing
I mean it was a nasty time, bombs going off in London etc. but still
During the WWII, this sort of 'balance' thinking went on a great deal. Although not admitted to, information was kept back from convoys in case the Germans sussed Enigma was compromised. Ships were sunk, many lives lost. The fact that the government refused(refuses?) to admit it irritated my gran who lost three sons at sea. Lots of PoW died in the attack on the dams. And there were so many more examples.Madness isn't it
That the government effectively allowed deaths to ensure they kept the intelligence flowing
I mean it was a nasty time, bombs going off in London etc. but still
Derek Smith said:
coldel said:
Just catching up on it on the news
Madness isn't it
That the government effectively allowed deaths to ensure they kept the intelligence flowing
I mean it was a nasty time, bombs going off in London etc. but still
During the WWII, this sort of 'balance' thinking went on a great deal. Although not admitted to, information was kept back from convoys in case the Germans sussed Enigma was compromised. Ships were sunk, many lives lost. The fact that the government refused(refuses?) to admit it irritated my gran who lost three sons at sea. Lots of PoW died in the attack on the dams. And there were so many more examples.Madness isn't it
That the government effectively allowed deaths to ensure they kept the intelligence flowing
I mean it was a nasty time, bombs going off in London etc. but still
These decisions are the sort of murky "morally grey" area which a great deal of "its black or white" thinkers luckily never have to content with, allowing them to maintain their feelings of superiority, as they never have to get stuck into the grimy world of what is effectively RealPolitik during an insurgent/terrorist operation.
Derek Smith said:
During the WWII, this sort of 'balance' thinking went on a great deal. Although not admitted to, information was kept back from convoys in case the Germans sussed Enigma was compromised. Ships were sunk, many lives lost. The fact that the government refused(refuses?) to admit it irritated my gran who lost three sons at sea. Lots of PoW died in the attack on the dams. And there were so many more examples.
How they used Enigma was perfectly sensible, they had to keep the information flowing. bergclimber34 said:
There is a great documentary about this subject on YouTube actually, done about 10years ago, lots of interview material of Scappaticci too,
Edmund Blackadder: Thank you young crone. Here is a purse of money...(crone holds her hand out expectantly)...which I'm not going to give to you.bergclimber34 said:
……
The oddest thing is, his name was even mentioned today by a lawyer present for the families, yet the authorities will STILL not name him. The man doing the enquiry was at pains to point out this was clearly wrong in this case. But Scappaticci did and does have 6 children, possibly the reason.
If they confirmed his name, how would any potential informant ever trust M15 ?The oddest thing is, his name was even mentioned today by a lawyer present for the families, yet the authorities will STILL not name him. The man doing the enquiry was at pains to point out this was clearly wrong in this case. But Scappaticci did and does have 6 children, possibly the reason.
They’re a ‘secret service’, they have to be allowed to keep secrets secret however unpleasant the circumstances are. Even when the details are out for individual cases, maintaining their ‘we don’t confirm or deny’ position is the right thing for future national security.
This is very inconvenient for everyone, and a real shame for the families of the victims... who will never see justice. And for what? the Queens coin?? symbolic of an insurgency against which he took part in? From his side it is relatively clear that he 'did it for the money..' but the fact remains he murdered or had a hand in murdering alot of people which were in all likelihood innocent, but the act was allowed proceed to save the overall 'bigger picture' by his handlers.
Now alot of the people involved are dead, and the troubles, which were an omnipresent part of my youth, are now becoming a distant memory. But people need answers and they wont get them.
I hope those who remain are haunted by their actions.
Now alot of the people involved are dead, and the troubles, which were an omnipresent part of my youth, are now becoming a distant memory. But people need answers and they wont get them.
I hope those who remain are haunted by their actions.
Wacky Racer said:
There is a scene in "The cruel sea" where the captain gives the order to fire depth charges out from the back of his ship, despite many British seamen swimming about in the water after their ship had been sunk, His reasoning was there was a U boat prowling around under the waves and it would have been better to sacrifice a few men than risk having his vessel torpedoed.
It's not just in wartime. If you're in a position of high power you're making dozens of live of death decisions every day. Lowering VAT on health clubs is gonna save lives but cost lives because you didn't spend an extra 0.12% on better road markings. Everything has an opportunity cost and many decisions are killing hundreds in one area to save more elsewhere. (If the judgement is right.)Admittedly it can be a bit more obvious in wartime.
BikeBikeBIke said:
Wacky Racer said:
There is a scene in "The cruel sea" where the captain gives the order to fire depth charges out from the back of his ship, despite many British seamen swimming about in the water after their ship had been sunk, His reasoning was there was a U boat prowling around under the waves and it would have been better to sacrifice a few men than risk having his vessel torpedoed.
It's not just in wartime. If you're in a position of high power you're making dozens of live of death decisions every day. Lowering VAT on health clubs is gonna save lives but cost lives because you didn't spend an extra 0.12% on better road markings. Everything has an opportunity cost and many decisions are killing hundreds in one area to save more elsewhere. (If the judgement is right.)Admittedly it can be a bit more obvious in wartime.
Edited by RabidGranny on Wednesday 10th December 10:45
RabidGranny said:
BikeBikeBIke said:
Wacky Racer said:
There is a scene in "The cruel sea" where the captain gives the order to fire depth charges out from the back of his ship, despite many British seamen swimming about in the water after their ship had been sunk, His reasoning was there was a U boat prowling around under the waves and it would have been better to sacrifice a few men than risk having his vessel torpedoed.
It's not just in wartime. If you're in a position of high power you're making dozens of live of death decisions every day. Lowering VAT on health clubs is gonna save lives but cost lives because you didn't spend an extra 0.12% on better road markings. Everything has an opportunity cost and many decisions are killing hundreds in one area to save more elsewhere. (If the judgement is right.)Admittedly it can be a bit more obvious in wartime.
BikeBikeBIke said:
RabidGranny said:
BikeBikeBIke said:
Wacky Racer said:
There is a scene in "The cruel sea" where the captain gives the order to fire depth charges out from the back of his ship, despite many British seamen swimming about in the water after their ship had been sunk, His reasoning was there was a U boat prowling around under the waves and it would have been better to sacrifice a few men than risk having his vessel torpedoed.
It's not just in wartime. If you're in a position of high power you're making dozens of live of death decisions every day. Lowering VAT on health clubs is gonna save lives but cost lives because you didn't spend an extra 0.12% on better road markings. Everything has an opportunity cost and many decisions are killing hundreds in one area to save more elsewhere. (If the judgement is right.)Admittedly it can be a bit more obvious in wartime.
Fair point then
I think the big issue is, everyone knows who he was, what he did, he was very well paid for it, and apparently a lot of stuff he gave the govt was supposed to save lives when it seems it still cost many, he was for sure involved in 18 murders, countless more perhaps before this.
Yet despite being outed by multiple other people remains unnamed, despite dying 2 years ago while still being looked after by our government, he was protected a few times in his later life, and I would love to know what he actually helped with, it must have been big to be so protected
I don't like posting links sorry, just type stakeknife into YT search, its not hard
Yet despite being outed by multiple other people remains unnamed, despite dying 2 years ago while still being looked after by our government, he was protected a few times in his later life, and I would love to know what he actually helped with, it must have been big to be so protected
I don't like posting links sorry, just type stakeknife into YT search, its not hard
Edited by bergclimber34 on Wednesday 10th December 11:07
It's a very, very dark subject about a very very dark bit of UK / Irish history, and that's a pretty high bar!
That said, my 2p is that the 'vibe' of the Good Friday agreement was that all sides agree it was f
king horrible, atrocities were committed by every faction at every level, but the greater good is to draw a line under it all and move on and it's worked. The Troubles were always going to take generations to heal, but they're healing slowly.
Of course if someone in your family was 'disappeared', murdered or whatever horrible thing else I can totally understand the need to know was to blame, but we risk opening old wounds.
I'm especially vexed when Republicans so callously refuse to accept that the PIRA and other factions did anything wrong, whilst so viciously perusing Unionists.
That said, my 2p is that the 'vibe' of the Good Friday agreement was that all sides agree it was f
king horrible, atrocities were committed by every faction at every level, but the greater good is to draw a line under it all and move on and it's worked. The Troubles were always going to take generations to heal, but they're healing slowly. Of course if someone in your family was 'disappeared', murdered or whatever horrible thing else I can totally understand the need to know was to blame, but we risk opening old wounds.
I'm especially vexed when Republicans so callously refuse to accept that the PIRA and other factions did anything wrong, whilst so viciously perusing Unionists.
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