Why does everything take so long these days?
Discussion
It's just been announced that the Grooming Gangs Enquiry will take three years to complete, plus three months up front before it starts to agree 'terms of reference'. WTF? Why does it take three months to agree the ToR? When I was working I would knock out a ToR in a morning, but these days everything takes AGES.
- Want a hospital appointment? That might be 18 months sir. Obviously, not urgent then... 21 weeks? Yeah, right.
- Going to court? That might be three years.
- Want to claim asylum? That'll be over two or more likely three years.
- NHS Dentist appointment? You'll be very, very lucky!!
- Need a policeman?
It seems like virtually every branch of public life is running at 50%, rather than 110% which is what's needed to clear all these backlogs. The only exception I've found recently is the passport office which is very efficient but charges you an arm and a leg. And that's probably the point. There simply aren't the resources (i.e. money) to pay for all this stuff that we had become accustomed to a decade or two back. Maybe it's because there are many more drains on the diminishing resources available than there are matching increases in those resources?
So what is needed to fix this? More money, obviously. But also, it seems to me that there's a chance that post-covid (and now lots are still apparently working from home) the work ethic amongst the population has dwindled significantly. So a huge productivity initiative may be needed across the board. Having lived in sleepy France I still find it difficult to believe their productivity is higher than ours, as everywhere is often shut or they pack up early (or they're at lunch) FFS!
Or should we just live with it?
- Want a hospital appointment? That might be 18 months sir. Obviously, not urgent then... 21 weeks? Yeah, right.
- Going to court? That might be three years.
- Want to claim asylum? That'll be over two or more likely three years.
- NHS Dentist appointment? You'll be very, very lucky!!
- Need a policeman?
It seems like virtually every branch of public life is running at 50%, rather than 110% which is what's needed to clear all these backlogs. The only exception I've found recently is the passport office which is very efficient but charges you an arm and a leg. And that's probably the point. There simply aren't the resources (i.e. money) to pay for all this stuff that we had become accustomed to a decade or two back. Maybe it's because there are many more drains on the diminishing resources available than there are matching increases in those resources?
So what is needed to fix this? More money, obviously. But also, it seems to me that there's a chance that post-covid (and now lots are still apparently working from home) the work ethic amongst the population has dwindled significantly. So a huge productivity initiative may be needed across the board. Having lived in sleepy France I still find it difficult to believe their productivity is higher than ours, as everywhere is often shut or they pack up early (or they're at lunch) FFS!
Or should we just live with it?
I hope I wont get my civil service pension stopped by saying this .....
When I retired not long ago some of us joked about the "old days" and how we used to get by with typing pools, actual paper copies and internal messengers/Royal Mail. But my observation is that now that we can email/chat/scan etc we end up taking more time sending things backwards and forwards that way than we used to do using the old methods. We then end up with way more "stuff" but not really better results.
When I retired not long ago some of us joked about the "old days" and how we used to get by with typing pools, actual paper copies and internal messengers/Royal Mail. But my observation is that now that we can email/chat/scan etc we end up taking more time sending things backwards and forwards that way than we used to do using the old methods. We then end up with way more "stuff" but not really better results.
Randy Winkman said:
I hope I wont get my civil service pension stopped by saying this .....
When I retired not long ago some of us joked about the "old days" and how we used to get by with typing pools, actual paper copies and internal messengers/Royal Mail. But my observation is that now that we can email/chat/scan etc we end up taking more time sending things backwards and forwards that way than we used to do using the old methods. We then end up with way more "stuff" but not really better results.
That's a good point. Emails cc'd to all and sundry for 'action' just add hugely to the workload. In the past you'd simply call someone and get it done...When I retired not long ago some of us joked about the "old days" and how we used to get by with typing pools, actual paper copies and internal messengers/Royal Mail. But my observation is that now that we can email/chat/scan etc we end up taking more time sending things backwards and forwards that way than we used to do using the old methods. We then end up with way more "stuff" but not really better results.
I think a lot of it is accountability. We demand more transparency from our public services, but that only seems to serve to increase process and reporting at the detriment of actually getting stuff done. The process becomes arse covering rather than the original functions.
We have become so risk averse that anything dynamic is engineered out.
We have become so risk averse that anything dynamic is engineered out.
Out of curiosity, I looked up some significant inquiries from the past.
The Cullen inquiry into Piper Alpha took 13 months and reported in November 1990, 2 years after the incident.
The Taylor report on Hillsborough took 31 days and was published in January 1990, 9 months after the incident.
The Hidden report on the Clapham rail accident appears to have been published in November 1989 after being started in January, so 11 months after the incident.
The Cullen inquiry into Piper Alpha took 13 months and reported in November 1990, 2 years after the incident.
The Taylor report on Hillsborough took 31 days and was published in January 1990, 9 months after the incident.
The Hidden report on the Clapham rail accident appears to have been published in November 1989 after being started in January, so 11 months after the incident.
Randy Winkman said:
I hope I wont get my civil service pension stopped by saying this .....
When I retired not long ago some of us joked about the "old days" and how we used to get by with typing pools, actual paper copies and internal messengers/Royal Mail. But my observation is that now that we can email/chat/scan etc we end up taking more time sending things backwards and forwards that way than we used to do using the old methods. We then end up with way more "stuff" but not really better results.
That reminds me of my good old days When I retired not long ago some of us joked about the "old days" and how we used to get by with typing pools, actual paper copies and internal messengers/Royal Mail. But my observation is that now that we can email/chat/scan etc we end up taking more time sending things backwards and forwards that way than we used to do using the old methods. We then end up with way more "stuff" but not really better results.
We used to have a police division with a Chief Supt in charge
The C/Supt had a Sgt and a clerk who ran the division admin alongside the duties Sgt who ran the people
Then progress .. the C/Supt's Sgt was replaced by a civvie who was an EO (exec officer) it was then discovered that an EO was entitled to two AO ( admin officers) and that each AO two AA's ( admin assistants )
Ah bugger it was then discovered that an EO, 2 AO's and 4 AA's needed a HEO ( higher exec off)
Same with the duties which became a HR dept with a HEO, EO, 2xAO's, 4 x AA's
That needed new office's to accommodate all these people and a SEO ( Senior exec officer) to manage the HEO's
You might wonder how two Sgt's and one clerk became 17 staff but they were all very important people who sent a lot of emails, needed lots of reports writing and endless meetings, because of course they all needed to justify their existence
I'll leave it to the reader to decide if this was more efficient and effective and whether it improved the system
I see this in the private sector but not to the same extent. Any non-essential work we do has to be approved by a director and planned for the whole year. Money isn't needed to solve it, people being given authority and taking ownership of something is.
A lot of people / companies seem to narrow down what they are for too much and cut out everything else as much as they can because it's someone else's problem.
A lot of people / companies seem to narrow down what they are for too much and cut out everything else as much as they can because it's someone else's problem.
Earthdweller said:
Randy Winkman said:
I hope I wont get my civil service pension stopped by saying this .....
When I retired not long ago some of us joked about the "old days" and how we used to get by with typing pools, actual paper copies and internal messengers/Royal Mail. But my observation is that now that we can email/chat/scan etc we end up taking more time sending things backwards and forwards that way than we used to do using the old methods. We then end up with way more "stuff" but not really better results.
That reminds me of my good old days When I retired not long ago some of us joked about the "old days" and how we used to get by with typing pools, actual paper copies and internal messengers/Royal Mail. But my observation is that now that we can email/chat/scan etc we end up taking more time sending things backwards and forwards that way than we used to do using the old methods. We then end up with way more "stuff" but not really better results.
We used to have a police division with a Chief Supt in charge
The C/Supt had a Sgt and a clerk who ran the division admin alongside the duties Sgt who ran the people
Then progress .. the C/Supt's Sgt was replaced by a civvie who was an EO (exec officer) it was then discovered that an EO was entitled to two AO ( admin officers) and that each AO two AA's ( admin assistants )
Ah bugger it was then discovered that an EO, 2 AO's and 4 AA's needed a HEO ( higher exec off)
Same with the duties which became a HR dept with a HEO, EO, 2xAO's, 4 x AA's
That needed new office's to accommodate all these people and a SEO ( Senior exec officer) to manage the HEO's
You might wonder how two Sgt's and one clerk became 17 staff but they were all very important people who sent a lot of emails, needed lots of reports writing and endless meetings, because of course they all needed to justify their existence
I'll leave it to the reader to decide if this was more efficient and effective and whether it improved the system
Otispunkmeyer said:
Happens all over this doesn't it.... private or public. We've got it at the place I work now, that overriding sense that there are more chiefs than Indians. Lots of very well paid people with company cars sending emails back and forth all day whilst they sit in wall to wall zoom meetings about "stuff"... yet the people on the ground actually trying to do the work are pulling their hair out as they're pulled from pillar to post, trying to get stuff done a few men down and making do with a tool kit that could probably do with a few more spanners in it.
Another observation (not necessarily about the civil service) is that the worth of junior people is underestimated (see above) and that experience of particular topics in underestimated. I think that many organisations like the idea that people can be swapped around at will and background knowledge is not needed. I know it wont be popular with many but many people used to get decent pay rises by just sticking in one role and doing it well. In the civil service (for one) that is no longer the case. To get pay rises people have to manoeuver around departments and somehow get promoted. Need a lot more 'do-ers' and a lot fewer 'takers'. The civil service structures outlined above are simply unsustainable (each EO needs 2 AOs, each AO needs 2 AAs etc etc.). There need to be way fewer levels within any hierarchy, and each level should have 7 to 1 reporting... that's how it was when I was working. This 2 into 1 reporting structure is crazy if it actually exists...
Earthdweller said:
That reminds me of my good old days
We used to have a police division with a Chief Supt in charge
The C/Supt had a Sgt and a clerk who ran the division admin alongside the duties Sgt who ran the people
Then progress .. the C/Supt's Sgt was replaced by a civvie who was an EO (exec officer) it was then discovered that an EO was entitled to two AO ( admin officers) and that each AO two AA's ( admin assistants )
Ah bugger it was then discovered that an EO, 2 AO's and 4 AA's needed a HEO ( higher exec off)
Same with the duties which became a HR dept with a HEO, EO, 2xAO's, 4 x AA's
That needed new office's to accommodate all these people and a SEO ( Senior exec officer) to manage the HEO's
You might wonder how two Sgt's and one clerk became 17 staff but they were all very important people who sent a lot of emails, needed lots of reports writing and endless meetings, because of course they all needed to justify their existence
I'll leave it to the reader to decide if this was more efficient and effective and whether it improved the system
This is truly farcical.We used to have a police division with a Chief Supt in charge
The C/Supt had a Sgt and a clerk who ran the division admin alongside the duties Sgt who ran the people
Then progress .. the C/Supt's Sgt was replaced by a civvie who was an EO (exec officer) it was then discovered that an EO was entitled to two AO ( admin officers) and that each AO two AA's ( admin assistants )
Ah bugger it was then discovered that an EO, 2 AO's and 4 AA's needed a HEO ( higher exec off)
Same with the duties which became a HR dept with a HEO, EO, 2xAO's, 4 x AA's
That needed new office's to accommodate all these people and a SEO ( Senior exec officer) to manage the HEO's
You might wonder how two Sgt's and one clerk became 17 staff but they were all very important people who sent a lot of emails, needed lots of reports writing and endless meetings, because of course they all needed to justify their existence
I'll leave it to the reader to decide if this was more efficient and effective and whether it improved the system
Randy Winkman said:
I hope I wont get my civil service pension stopped by saying this .....
When I retired not long ago some of us joked about the "old days" and how we used to get by with typing pools, actual paper copies and internal messengers/Royal Mail. But my observation is that now that we can email/chat/scan etc we end up taking more time sending things backwards and forwards that way than we used to do using the old methods. We then end up with way more "stuff" but not really better results.
Imagine the speed of talking to people too.When I retired not long ago some of us joked about the "old days" and how we used to get by with typing pools, actual paper copies and internal messengers/Royal Mail. But my observation is that now that we can email/chat/scan etc we end up taking more time sending things backwards and forwards that way than we used to do using the old methods. We then end up with way more "stuff" but not really better results.
Earthdweller said:
That reminds me of my good old days
We used to have a police division with a Chief Supt in charge
The C/Supt had a Sgt and a clerk who ran the division admin alongside the duties Sgt who ran the people
In the 1980s I worked at a division where the admin was done by a cop (acting for a Ch Insp) assisted by a couple of clerks.We used to have a police division with a Chief Supt in charge
The C/Supt had a Sgt and a clerk who ran the division admin alongside the duties Sgt who ran the people
All paper based of course.
He also ran the division football team.
He made a career of it by being efficient and indispensable. When he went on holiday he only told his stand in the bare minimum to get by until he was back.
franki68 said:
I will answer this in a few months.
I think we should meet before then to discuss a timeframe and framework to structure your approach to this answer. This will help us align expectations, clarify responsibilities and ensure we’re moving forward as efficiently as possible. How is March looking for you, for an initial discussion?Flooble said:
This is so true it's painful. Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff