RE: Rejoice: EU is on the verge of saving combustion
RE: Rejoice: EU is on the verge of saving combustion
Yesterday

Rejoice: EU is on the verge of saving combustion

'Ban on combustion engines is off the table' says EU lawmaker, as 2035 deadline goes in the bin


We suspected it was coming. Indeed, the boss of Lamborghini told a room full of hacks last month that he was virtually certain it was in the pipeline - and the EU itself, never less than leaky, has been signalling for weeks that it was about to succumb to the intense lobbying on the subject. But now we have what seems like confirmation. The plan to effectively phase out combustion engines in 2035 will be abandoned by the EU next week, as it seeks an alternative (i.e. more realistic and less damaging) route to reduced emissions. 

That’s according to Manfred Weber, president of the largest party in the European Parliament. "For new registrations from 2035 onwards, a 90 per cent reduction in CO2 emissions will now be mandatory for car manufacturers' fleet targets, instead of 100 per cent,” Weber told Bild, Germany’s giant-selling tabloid. Of course, that 10 per cent makes all the difference in the world to an industry that would very much like to remain in the business of burning petrol for as long as possible. 

He continued: "There will also be no 100% target from 2040 onwards. This means that the technology ban on combustion engines is off the table. All engines currently manufactured in Germany can therefore continue to be produced and sold." Of course, assuming it is confirmed by official decree next week, this will be welcomed by the likes of Porsche and BMW as deeply agreeable news, as it virtually guarantees the long-term existence of a new generation of petrol-electric powertrains and offers them an ongoing technical advantage over Chinese rivals. 

Moreover, while Weber makes no bones about the reasoning behind the prospective rule change - it is chiefly about securing ‘tens of thousands of industrial jobs’ - it is also likely to find favour with buyers disinclined to make the switch to battery power. As you might expect, PH is inclined to bang a saucepan out of the nearest window in celebration, though for now it is obviously unclear what the change in legislation would mean for the UK. Typically, and not least to ensure the competitiveness of domestic carmakers, the government has fallen in line with EU regulations and timescales - but perhaps it would be a brave soul to bet his or her mortgage on common sense prevailing this time around. As ever, thoughts welcome below. 


Author
Discussion

Turini

Original Poster:

454 posts

186 months

Yesterday (14:04)
quotequote all
This will be a far reaching decision with complex outcomes both negative and positive but from a motoring perspective its got to be positive and trigger an uplift in synthetic and sustainable fuels

SP14930

1 posts

3 months

Yesterday (14:06)
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As French and owner of a beloved 1993 Continental R and 2008 CL500, rejoice !
Duracell cars definitely not allowed in my garage.

otolith

64,079 posts

224 months

Yesterday (14:09)
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EU concedes defeat on EV manufacturing to China on the basis that its manufacturers are hopelessly out of their depth.

craigjm

20,065 posts

220 months

Yesterday (14:10)
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If they make a move like that I wonder if they will open themselves up for legal action from the car companies that are stuck in the middle of all of this crap. They have all had to make long term model cycle decisions based on this stuff and moving back on it now, although welcome from us older car drivers, is a real joke from a business point of view.

Vsix and Vtec

1,192 posts

38 months

Yesterday (14:11)
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A lot of manufacturers are going to be furious. Ford for example basically slaughtered its still profitable line-up to reposition for this legislation. This will have set back many of them, and possibly killed off others.

Andy86GT

776 posts

85 months

Yesterday (14:13)
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If I read this right, it still means 90% (i.e by far and away the most) must be EV.

corcoran

671 posts

294 months

Yesterday (14:15)
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Simply do nothing! Very brave.

jonosterman

90 posts

112 months

Yesterday (14:19)
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Andy86GT said:
If I read this right, it still means 90% (i.e by far and away the most) must be EV.
Exactly. Surely this means that someone like VAG will sitll go 100% electric for everything other Porsche / Bentley etc. This just feels like a lifeline for the high end stuff to stay ICE, not the more affordable / only moderately interesting stuff.

If they want to keep the exciting engines for the six-figure sports/luxury marques, then everything below that will have to be electric.

And for everyone without prestige stuff in their portfolio, you have to wonder if it actually makes sense for them to develop ICE platforms given the enormous reduction still required. i.e. a Focus ST makes sense when you have an ICE Focus to base it on, but if a hot hatch would require an entirely new platform I can't see them wanting to shell out for it.

Blib

46,799 posts

217 months

Yesterday (14:20)
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Well, there goes the planet.

yes

bigyoungdave

302 posts

47 months

Yesterday (14:20)
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Vsix and Vtec said:
A lot of manufacturers are going to be furious. Ford for example basically slaughtered its still profitable line-up to reposition for this legislation. This will have set back many of them, and possibly killed off others.
Somewhat agree. But Ford didn't need to completely abandon the small ICE cars, and they should've hedged their bets a lot better. There was always a chance something like this would happen

BigChiefmuffinAgain

1,518 posts

118 months

Yesterday (14:27)
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jonosterman said:
Andy86GT said:
If I read this right, it still means 90% (i.e by far and away the most) must be EV.
Exactly. Surely this means that someone like VAG will sitll go 100% electric for everything other Porsche / Bentley etc. This just feels like a lifeline for the high end stuff to stay ICE, not the more affordable / only moderately interesting stuff.

If they want to keep the exciting engines for the six-figure sports/luxury marques, then everything below that will have to be electric.

And for everyone without prestige stuff in their portfolio, you have to wonder if it actually makes sense for them to develop ICE platforms given the enormous reduction still required. i.e. a Focus ST makes sense when you have an ICE Focus to base it on, but if a hot hatch would require an entirely new platform I can't see them wanting to shell out for it.
Is that the case ? They are saying a 90% reduction from, I assume, current levels. A lot of that can still be achieved with hybrids ? It is not beyond the EU to fiddle the rules about how much CO2 a hybrid actually produces to help achieve this number. And given that manufacturers are starting to release hybrids with 100+ miles electric only range, it may even be possible without much of a fiddle....

pti

1,808 posts

164 months

Yesterday (14:28)
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That's the end of Jaguar then.

cerb4.5lee

39,988 posts

200 months

Yesterday (14:29)
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woohoo

pixelmix

269 posts

128 months

Yesterday (14:32)
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Whilst probably good news for the continuing supply of ICE sports cars and supercars and other edges cases, a 90% reduction in fleet CO2 still means that most mass production stuff is still going to have to be EV. At least it means that for edge cases where EV doesn't make much sense, manufacturers can still make a case for an ICE model.

If Porsche et al have to do some tricky carbon accounting to sell you a limited allocation petrol GT3 for which they've had to sell dozens of electric Macans, you can imagine that the GT3 price will be fairly eyewatering.

Edited by pixelmix on Friday 12th December 14:45

SDK

2,334 posts

273 months

Yesterday (14:35)
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Makes sense

Allows the low volume selling sports/supercar/hypercar makers to continue producing the cars those buyers want, but still mandating the daily dross as cleaner fuels smile


Deranged Rover

4,271 posts

94 months

Yesterday (14:37)
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Blib said:
Well, there goes the planet.

yes
Or not.

Olivera

8,322 posts

259 months

Yesterday (14:44)
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But PHers like TheDeuce explicitly stated this would never, ever happen?

DMZ

1,929 posts

180 months

Yesterday (14:45)
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I'd say that 90% will get watered down too in time. Unless of course everyone shifts to EVs regardless and it becomes the defacto reality.

If they can reduce the ADAS requirements by 90% while at it, that would be good too.

jonosterman

90 posts

112 months

Yesterday (14:46)
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BigChiefmuffinAgain said:
Is that the case ? They are saying a 90% reduction from, I assume, current levels. A lot of that can still be achieved with hybrids ? It is not beyond the EU to fiddle the rules about how much CO2 a hybrid actually produces to help achieve this number. And given that manufacturers are starting to release hybrids with 100+ miles electric only range, it may even be possible without much of a fiddle....
Figures from ChatGPT so possibly hallucinated...

Taking BMW as an example (some rounding):
320i - 150g/km
330d - 150g/km
330e - 160g/km (WLTP) 40g/km ("real world")
M3 - 230g/km

BMW's current fleet average is 102g/km so they need to come down to 10g/km.

Even if everything goes hybrid and they get a favourable recalibration of the WLTP that seems like a huge ask for anything other than halo models like the M3.

Either they end up fitting such big batteries to cars they essentialy become BEVs with a range extender, or they (if we're lucky) replace those six pot hybrids with three pot hybrids and I can't see anyone other than the most die-hard petrol heads getting romantic about the idea of a 1.5L 2 tonne 3 series.

Blib

46,799 posts

217 months

Yesterday (14:46)
quotequote all
Deranged Rover said:
Blib said:
Well, there goes the planet.

yes
Or not.
Hopefully, our glorious leaders here in the UK will stick to their guns.