Warm Hatch's Vs Hot Hatch's Vs Mega Hatch's power tier list?
Discussion
Just my opinon.
In the 1980s I'd
Warm Hatch: 80bhp to 99bhp
Hot Hatch: 100bhp to 199bhp
Mega Hatch: 200bhp to 250bhp (usually Group A/Touring car homologation specials)
In the 1990s
Warm Hatch: 100bhp to 150bhp
Hot Hatch: 150bhp to 199bhp
Mega Hatch: 199bhp to 275bhp (usually Group A/Touring car homologation specials)
In the 2000s
Warm Hatch: 150bhp to 175bhp
Hot Hatch: 175bhp to 275bhp
Mega Hatch: 275bhp to 300bhp
In the 2010s to present
Warm Hatch: 150bhp to 199bhp
Hot Hatch: 250bhp to 325bhp
Mega Hatch: 325bhp to 470bhp
In the 1980s I'd
Warm Hatch: 80bhp to 99bhp
Hot Hatch: 100bhp to 199bhp
Mega Hatch: 200bhp to 250bhp (usually Group A/Touring car homologation specials)
In the 1990s
Warm Hatch: 100bhp to 150bhp
Hot Hatch: 150bhp to 199bhp
Mega Hatch: 199bhp to 275bhp (usually Group A/Touring car homologation specials)
In the 2000s
Warm Hatch: 150bhp to 175bhp
Hot Hatch: 175bhp to 275bhp
Mega Hatch: 275bhp to 300bhp
In the 2010s to present
Warm Hatch: 150bhp to 199bhp
Hot Hatch: 250bhp to 325bhp
Mega Hatch: 325bhp to 470bhp
Edited by cirian75 on Wednesday 31st December 11:40
It’s weird, the “mega hatches” now are quite big and heavy, nearer to a sanitised modern evo blended with a luxo barge than an original hot hatch.
An RS3 is now over 1600 kilos, a prop forward less than the original S8.
Don’t get me wrong, great car but they are very different nowadays.
An RS3 is now over 1600 kilos, a prop forward less than the original S8.
Don’t get me wrong, great car but they are very different nowadays.
I don’t agree with your mega hatch definitions.
For me, an Escort RS Cosworth of the early 90s was a mega hatch, but you seem to have it as a mid table hot hatch. Could possibly say the same of a late 80s HF Integrale.
I also seem to remember the original (210bhp) Audi S3 over circa 1999 causing a bit of a stir at the time from a power viewpoint and was dubbed a mega hatch by the motoring press. Probably partly responsible for stating the hot hatch power wars.
Conversely, you then have anything over 300hp today as a mega / hyper hatch, which would include things like the BMW 135 and S3, which are relatively tame compared with RS3 and A45s.
For me, an Escort RS Cosworth of the early 90s was a mega hatch, but you seem to have it as a mid table hot hatch. Could possibly say the same of a late 80s HF Integrale.
I also seem to remember the original (210bhp) Audi S3 over circa 1999 causing a bit of a stir at the time from a power viewpoint and was dubbed a mega hatch by the motoring press. Probably partly responsible for stating the hot hatch power wars.
Conversely, you then have anything over 300hp today as a mega / hyper hatch, which would include things like the BMW 135 and S3, which are relatively tame compared with RS3 and A45s.
I view the "mega hatches" in the same way as I did with the Mitsubishi Evo back in the 00's. Yes I know it's a saloon but it was 4WD and 300bhp+ so they feel comparable. That was very much my era of hot hatches, so to me the likes of the Clio 182 was spot on. They nailed the ethos of being fairly cheap, light, fun, not stupidly quick but could keep up more expensive cars.
The high end hot hatches are a bit funny to me, AWD, top end spec, lightness isn't a consideration it's just about power. They are hatcbacks and they are unbelievably quick but to me, the appeal isn't the same as the old recipe hot hatches.
The high end hot hatches are a bit funny to me, AWD, top end spec, lightness isn't a consideration it's just about power. They are hatcbacks and they are unbelievably quick but to me, the appeal isn't the same as the old recipe hot hatches.
Heathwood said:
I don t agree with your mega hatch definitions.
For me, an Escort RS Cosworth of the early 90s was a mega hatch, but you seem to have it as a mid table hot hatch. Could possibly say the same of a late 80s HF Integrale.
I also seem to remember the original (210bhp) Audi S3 over circa 1999 causing a bit of a stir at the time from a power viewpoint and was dubbed a mega hatch by the motoring press. Probably partly responsible for stating the hot hatch power wars.
Conversely, you then have anything over 300hp today as a mega / hyper hatch, which would include things like the BMW 135 and S3, which are relatively tame compared with RS3 and A45s.
Power levels adjusted For me, an Escort RS Cosworth of the early 90s was a mega hatch, but you seem to have it as a mid table hot hatch. Could possibly say the same of a late 80s HF Integrale.
I also seem to remember the original (210bhp) Audi S3 over circa 1999 causing a bit of a stir at the time from a power viewpoint and was dubbed a mega hatch by the motoring press. Probably partly responsible for stating the hot hatch power wars.
Conversely, you then have anything over 300hp today as a mega / hyper hatch, which would include things like the BMW 135 and S3, which are relatively tame compared with RS3 and A45s.
I was just thinking back to vehicles that I've owned that fall into these tiers, these main ones spring to mind
1980's - 1988 XR2, I'd call that a hot hatch, admittedly I'd gone the twin 40's, spicy cam, lightened/balanced bottom end and a big valve head to give 130 flywheel BHP.
1990's - 1996 Escort RS Cosworth, mega hatch in my eyes, sub 6 second 60MPH even as standard (I've owned mine since 2006)
2000's - 2001 Cliosport 172, I'd again go hot hatch rather than warm. Out of the box they were rapid and really good to drive spiritedly, I ended up modding ours to 198 flyweel BHP (cold start recirculation removed, ported and matched inlet and throttle body, pipercross in standard airbox, yozzasport touring cup single box exhaust, RS tuning live map with rev limit increased to 7,400). Even without the mods I'd still say hot hatch.
2010's - 2020 F40 m135i, Again hot hatch for me (306bhp I think). A 300bhp 5 door that does a sub 5 second 60 dash, I was out in it yesterday having not driven it for a while and good god it covers ground quickly. What really helps this is the torque spread: 330 lb/ft flat between 1800 and 5000 rpm.
Interesting topic this.
I do wonder if the hyper hatches are at the price point now where they make less sense than they did in the 2010s.
Back then there was still some distance between them and the mid-tier sports saloons price wise, so your RS3, A45, Focus RS etc were quite a bit less than a C43, S4 or XE S for example.
I know the sports saloon segment has died off a bit now, but the RS3 is now a good chunk more than an M340i if you want a decent spec list.
Back then there was still some distance between them and the mid-tier sports saloons price wise, so your RS3, A45, Focus RS etc were quite a bit less than a C43, S4 or XE S for example.
I know the sports saloon segment has died off a bit now, but the RS3 is now a good chunk more than an M340i if you want a decent spec list.
HazzaT said:
I do wonder if the hyper hatches are at the price point now where they make less sense than they did in the 2010s.
Back then there was still some distance between them and the mid-tier sports saloons price wise, so your RS3, A45, Focus RS etc were quite a bit less than a C43, S4 or XE S for example.
I know the sports saloon segment has died off a bit now, but the RS3 is now a good chunk more than an M340i if you want a decent spec list.
The BMW 128Ti hatch is much better buy than the M340i, £26K'ish vs £40/50k'ish much cheaper and is a better Golf GTI than the Golf GTiBack then there was still some distance between them and the mid-tier sports saloons price wise, so your RS3, A45, Focus RS etc were quite a bit less than a C43, S4 or XE S for example.
I know the sports saloon segment has died off a bit now, but the RS3 is now a good chunk more than an M340i if you want a decent spec list.
Alex_225 said:
I view the "mega hatches" in the same way as I did with the Mitsubishi Evo back in the 00's. Yes I know it's a saloon but it was 4WD and 300bhp+ so they feel comparable. That was very much my era of hot hatches, so to me the likes of the Clio 182 was spot on. They nailed the ethos of being fairly cheap, light, fun, not stupidly quick but could keep up more expensive cars.
The high end hot hatches are a bit funny to me, AWD, top end spec, lightness isn't a consideration it's just about power. They are hatcbacks and they are unbelievably quick but to me, the appeal isn't the same as the old recipe hot hatches.
100%The high end hot hatches are a bit funny to me, AWD, top end spec, lightness isn't a consideration it's just about power. They are hatcbacks and they are unbelievably quick but to me, the appeal isn't the same as the old recipe hot hatches.
Not sure I agree with some of the numbers
In the 90's, Saxo VTS and 106 GTi were not just warm hatches in my opinion, with 120bhp. Likewise, surely the Swift sport is a valid warm/hot hatch but doesn't fit the mix there with around 125bhp I think, maybe a touch more later. Think weight needs to fit in there somewhere as mentioned above.
The little Charade Gtti was a stormer and only maybe had 100 odd bhp.
I think the numbers on the early years you have are too high basically
In the 90's, Saxo VTS and 106 GTi were not just warm hatches in my opinion, with 120bhp. Likewise, surely the Swift sport is a valid warm/hot hatch but doesn't fit the mix there with around 125bhp I think, maybe a touch more later. Think weight needs to fit in there somewhere as mentioned above.
The little Charade Gtti was a stormer and only maybe had 100 odd bhp.
I think the numbers on the early years you have are too high basically
Edited by Axeboy on Wednesday 31st December 16:14
I got ChatGPT to compile a list of UK hot hatches and their power outputs and export it to Excel, then played about with it.
So this is everything.
There are a few outliers in there - a Pulsar rally rep, for example. This is the list cut down to the three or so most powerful cars released in each year (with the odd exception where something was significant) and the obvious rally reps removed.
This is the list of cars which were, at launch, the most powerful hot hatch. Where there are joint holders of the title, only the first one to it is shown.
This is the same thing, but starting from a list of two wheel drive cars only.
(There is a RWD one-series in there)
So this is everything.
There are a few outliers in there - a Pulsar rally rep, for example. This is the list cut down to the three or so most powerful cars released in each year (with the odd exception where something was significant) and the obvious rally reps removed.
This is the list of cars which were, at launch, the most powerful hot hatch. Where there are joint holders of the title, only the first one to it is shown.
This is the same thing, but starting from a list of two wheel drive cars only.
(There is a RWD one-series in there)
Edited by otolith on Wednesday 31st December 17:46
Why not provide a graph/chart/spreadsheet of how boring/safe/heavy cars have become, and how removed the driver is from the engagement of the drive as a result.
Cars are much more than a pack of Top Trumps.
Yes of course Gav is going to pop and bang his way into the distance in his remapped M135i, but I bet he isn't having nearly as much fun as the person in the 80s car with circa 110-150 bhp.
Cars are much more than a pack of Top Trumps.
Yes of course Gav is going to pop and bang his way into the distance in his remapped M135i, but I bet he isn't having nearly as much fun as the person in the 80s car with circa 110-150 bhp.
I’ve got the weights as well, though I suspect that they are probably inconsistent with respect to DIN/EU.
I would say that the increase in power has been driven by the increase in size and weight, the widespread adoption of turbocharging, and the simple fact that given the choice between two hot hatches people will tend to buy the faster of the two. So as the state of the art of engine tech has moved on, more power has become possible, and no manufacturer wanted their hot hatch to look under endowed.
I would say that the increase in power has been driven by the increase in size and weight, the widespread adoption of turbocharging, and the simple fact that given the choice between two hot hatches people will tend to buy the faster of the two. So as the state of the art of engine tech has moved on, more power has become possible, and no manufacturer wanted their hot hatch to look under endowed.
otolith said:
I got ChatGPT to compile a list of UK hot hatches and their power outputs and export it to Excel, then played about with it.
So this is everything.
There are a few outliers in there - a Pulsar rally rep, for example. This is the list cut down to the three or so most powerful cars released in each year (with the odd exception where something was significant) and the obvious rally reps removed.
This is the list of cars which were, at launch, the most powerful hot hatch. Where there are joint holders of the title, only the first one to it is shown.
This is the same thing, but starting from a list of two wheel drive cars only.
(There is a RWD one-series in there)
Plot the kerbweights and also power-to-weights too. So this is everything.
There are a few outliers in there - a Pulsar rally rep, for example. This is the list cut down to the three or so most powerful cars released in each year (with the odd exception where something was significant) and the obvious rally reps removed.
This is the list of cars which were, at launch, the most powerful hot hatch. Where there are joint holders of the title, only the first one to it is shown.
This is the same thing, but starting from a list of two wheel drive cars only.
(There is a RWD one-series in there)
Edited by otolith on Wednesday 31st December 17:46
Also, thread starter, it’s hatches, not “hatch’s”
otolith said:
I ve got the weights as well, though I suspect that they are probably inconsistent with respect to DIN/EU.
I would say that the increase in power has been driven by the increase in size and weight, the widespread adoption of turbocharging, and the simple fact that given the choice between two hot hatches people will tend to buy the faster of the two. So as the state of the art of engine tech has moved on, more power has become possible, and no manufacturer wanted their hot hatch to look under endowed.
Yes.I would say that the increase in power has been driven by the increase in size and weight, the widespread adoption of turbocharging, and the simple fact that given the choice between two hot hatches people will tend to buy the faster of the two. So as the state of the art of engine tech has moved on, more power has become possible, and no manufacturer wanted their hot hatch to look under endowed.
Manufacturers have noted than people prefer bigger, more luxurious cars, and hot hatch shoppers like loads of power too.
Customers get what they want.
georgeyboy12345 said:
otolith said:
I got ChatGPT to compile a list of UK hot hatches and their power outputs and export it to Excel, then played about with it.
So this is everything.
There are a few outliers in there - a Pulsar rally rep, for example. This is the list cut down to the three or so most powerful cars released in each year (with the odd exception where something was significant) and the obvious rally reps removed.
This is the list of cars which were, at launch, the most powerful hot hatch. Where there are joint holders of the title, only the first one to it is shown.
This is the same thing, but starting from a list of two wheel drive cars only.
(There is a RWD one-series in there)
Plot the kerbweights and also power-to-weights too. So this is everything.
There are a few outliers in there - a Pulsar rally rep, for example. This is the list cut down to the three or so most powerful cars released in each year (with the odd exception where something was significant) and the obvious rally reps removed.
This is the list of cars which were, at launch, the most powerful hot hatch. Where there are joint holders of the title, only the first one to it is shown.
This is the same thing, but starting from a list of two wheel drive cars only.
(There is a RWD one-series in there)
Edited by otolith on Wednesday 31st December 17:46
Also, thread starter, it s hatches, not hatch s
Probably a bit basic but here goes for some examples for power / weight:
Car Model Horsepower (bhp) Weight (kg) Power-to-Weight Ratio (bhp/kg)
VW Golf GTI Mk1 (1980) 110 810 0.136
Peugeot 205 GTI (1984) 115 850 0.135
Ford Escort XR3i (1980) 105 950 0.110
Renault Clio Williams (1993) 150 950 0.158
Ford Focus RS (2002) 212 1550 0.137
VW Golf GTI Mk5 (2005) 200 1400 0.143
Honda Civic Type R (2007) 225 1300 0.173
VW Golf R Mk8 (2020) 320 1500 0.213
Hyundai i30 N (2017) 275 1500 0.183
Toyota Yaris GR (2020) 261 1280 0.204
Car Model Horsepower (bhp) Weight (kg) Power-to-Weight Ratio (bhp/kg)
VW Golf GTI Mk1 (1980) 110 810 0.136
Peugeot 205 GTI (1984) 115 850 0.135
Ford Escort XR3i (1980) 105 950 0.110
Renault Clio Williams (1993) 150 950 0.158
Ford Focus RS (2002) 212 1550 0.137
VW Golf GTI Mk5 (2005) 200 1400 0.143
Honda Civic Type R (2007) 225 1300 0.173
VW Golf R Mk8 (2020) 320 1500 0.213
Hyundai i30 N (2017) 275 1500 0.183
Toyota Yaris GR (2020) 261 1280 0.204
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